LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[yorksrob]

May I ask what does "pretty decent" mean in this context? It reads as if you're presenting an opinion as some sort of fact.

In this context, services were clockface, they didn't start particularly late on a Sunday and only one local line out of the five had a two-hourly service on Sunday as opposed to hourly.

That's to say, the service was pretty decent.

 

[DustyBin]

It's an excuse. If they were that concerned about a lack of money, they wouldn't have a system that forces the taxpayer to lease forty year old trains.

I remember services pre-privatisation as well, and they weren't as bad as people like to make out.

But then who would fund the railways of mainland Europe?

The British rail system has been mocked by Europeans appearing in an advert pushing for the network to be made public.

In the viral video produced by the Transport Salaried Staffs' Association (TSSA) - whose members are striking across the UK today - the franchised structure of the UK's rail network is mercilessly ridiculed.

In the clip representatives of "the people" of France, Netherlands and Germany "thank the British people" allowing their "publicly owned rail networks" to "buy up your rail network".

In one brutal moment the cast explain: "So when you buy a ticket on Thameslink, Gatwick Express, Grand Central, Chiltern Railways, Merseyside Rail, Scotrail, Greater Anglia, London Midland, DLR, Northern Rail, London Overground, Cross Country, Southern and South Eastern, the profits go to making our railways cheaper."

Europe savagely mocks UK government over rail services that fund other systems

A video produced by the Transport Salaried Staffs' Association (TSSA) to coincide with the latest round of rail strikes shows French, German and Dutch people thanking the British public

www.mirror.co.uk

I’ve not quoted the whole article but you get the picture……

 

[Steddenm]

They were pretty decent round my way - anyway, none of this explains why we are still paying leasing costs on forty year old trains which have already been paid for.

They might be paid for, but the leasing agreement covers the use of the trains, stock availability, some of the refurbishment and maintenance costs which ca be quite high.

Albeit they are 40+ years old, they are still some of the better stock on the railway network* and the refurb that VTEC and LNER have done to the sets has been positive.

*obviously this is an opinion.

 

[yorksrob]

They might be paid for, but the leasing agreement covers the use of the trains, stock availability, some of the refurbishment and maintenance costs which ca be quite high.

Albeit they are 40+ years old, they are still some of the better stock on the railway network* and the refurb that VTEC and LNER have done to the sets has been positive.

*obviously this is an opinion.

I think that it will be a scandal if we're forced to lose capacity because of these leasing costs and more fuss needs to be made about it.

 

[DanNCL]

They might be paid for, but the leasing agreement covers the use of the trains, stock availability, some of the refurbishment and maintenance costs which ca be quite high.

Albeit they are 40+ years old, they are still some of the better stock on the railway network* and the refurb that VTEC and LNER have done to the sets has been positive.

*obviously this is an opinion.

The first 91 rolled off the production line in 1988, so is 35 years old this year.

 

[SteveyBee131]

The first 91 rolled off the production line in 1988, so is 35 years old this year.

Indeed, they're younger than me and I'm not 40 yet! And if my memory serves me correctly the carriages are younger too. Maybe a bit of topic but many of the Sprinters are older with little if any signs of replacement any time soon. It's not unheard of for trains to pass 40 years old before retirement.

 

[Energy]

But then who would fund the railways of mainland Europe?

Europe savagely mocks UK government over rail services that fund other systems

A video produced by the Transport Salaried Staffs' Association (TSSA) to coincide with the latest round of rail strikes shows French, German and Dutch people thanking the British public

www.mirror.co.uk

I’ve not quoted the whole article but you get the picture……

That video is a few years old and inaccurate now with Abellio having a management buyout of its UK rail operations. The fact it mentions London Midland should show how old it is. Interestingly there was some annoyance in the Netherlands that they were 'subsidising' us through Abellio.

The £3 million in profit from Greater Anglia in 2012 sounds good but is pretty small in the context of their turnover.

 

[43096]

They were pretty decent round my way - anyway, none of this explains why we are still paying leasing costs on forty year old trains which have already been paid for.

If you rent a 40-year-old house, do you expect to pay very little because it's "already been paid for"?

 

[Fuzzytop]

The first 91 rolled off the production line in 1988, so is 35 years old this year.

Indeed - some of the coaches were still coming off the production line in 1992, and so have only recently turned 30. And of course, both locos and stock received the comprehensive Mallard rebuild in the early 2000s. They’re getting on a bit, but they really aren’t life-expired yet.

 

[Richard Scott]

But then who would fund the railways of mainland Europe?

Europe savagely mocks UK government over rail services that fund other systems

A video produced by the Transport Salaried Staffs' Association (TSSA) to coincide with the latest round of rail strikes shows French, German and Dutch people thanking the British public

www.mirror.co.uk

I’ve not quoted the whole article but you get the picture……

What an interesting view when National Express and Go ahead run some of the German network and French (and others) are often on strike! Need to look in their own backyard first. French railway system is appalling!
I'll take clapped out 91s and Mark 4s over some of their uncomfortable stock.

 

[43102EMR]

I wouldn't put it past the DfT/Treasury/Government to try it on again and try and withdraw them.

There's money no object to keep the trappings of privatisation such as train leasing limping on, but less interest in running a decent service for passengers.

Except they can’t really use the excuse of passenger shortfalls with LNER considering their capacity was at 106% of pre-Covid levels in 2022 - that would make the Mk4 withdrawals all the more absurd in the public eye if they were to happen.

 

[yorksrob]

Except they can’t really use the excuse of passenger shortfalls with LNER considering their capacity was at 106% of pre-Covid levels in 2022 - that would make the Mk4 withdrawals all the more absurd in the public eye if they were to happen.

My worry is that they'll think that they can sneak it through without the wider public noticing until it's too late and the carriages have gone. It seems to be happening on Great Western.

 

[gabrielhj07]

My worry is that they'll think that they can sneak it through without the wider public noticing until it's too late and the carriages have gone. It seems to be happening on Great Western.

Although GWR's HSTs are considerably older and worse for wear than the IC225 sets.

 

[yorksrob]

Although GWR's HSTs are considerably older and worse for wear than the IC225 sets.

I don't think it necessarily comes down to how old or worse for wear stock is unfortunately.

 

[DanNCL]

Indeed - some of the coaches were still coming off the production line in 1992, and so have only recently turned 30. And of course, both locos and stock received the comprehensive Mallard rebuild in the early 2000s. They’re getting on a bit, but they really aren’t life-expired yet.

The locos are mechanically knackered. They spent 30 years as flagship workhorses, often running in excess of 1000 miles a day, even some of the current diagrams still exceed that if I recall correctly. Eversholt had the right idea around a decade ago when they suggested replacing the 91s with new locos but keeping the Mark 4s.

Except they can’t really use the excuse of passenger shortfalls with LNER considering their capacity was at 106% of pre-Covid levels in 2022 - that would make the Mk4 withdrawals all the more absurd in the public eye if they were to happen.

My worry is that they'll think that they can sneak it through without the wider public noticing until it's too late and the carriages have gone. It seems to be happening on Great Western.

It would be much more difficult to on LNER, it would be noticed almost immediately. Even 5 car 80xs running to Newcastle when it happens gets noticed.

Although GWR's HSTs are considerably older and worse for wear than the IC225 sets.

On the other hand, mechanically the HST power cars should be in better condition than the 91s as there’s virtually nothing original left in them, unlike the 91s. I’ll agree with the Mark 3s though, they’re in much worse condition than the Mark 4s.

 

[yorksrob]

The locos are mechanically knackered. They spent 30 years as flagship workhorses, often running in excess of 1000 miles a day, even some of the current diagrams still exceed that if I recall correctly. Eversholt had the right idea around a decade ago when they suggested replacing the 91s with new locos but keeping the Mark 4s.



It would be much more difficult to on LNER, it would be noticed almost immediately. Even 5 car 80xs running to Newcastle when it happens gets noticed.


On the other hand, mechanically the HST power cars should be in better condition than the 91s as there’s virtually nothing original left in them, unlike the 91s. I’ll agree with the Mark 3s though, they’re in much worse condition than the Mark 4s.

Even if it does get noticed, what's the betting this shifty government will just shrug its shoulders and go "nuffing to do with us guv" as with Avanti etc.

 

[43096]

On the other hand, mechanically the HST power cars should be in better condition than the 91s as there’s virtually nothing original left in them, unlike the 91s.

Nothing original in them? Alternators, traction motors, bogies, rectifiers, brake system...

I'm really not understanding this "the 91s are knackered but the 43s aren't" narrative. What gets knackered by the sort of work they do is things like bogies and wheelsets - which is addressed through planned overhauls. Both fleets have received numerous bogie overhauls through their life and as a safety critical item they are not pushed to the point where they are "knackered".

 

[DustyBin]

That video is a few years old and inaccurate now with Abellio having a management buyout of its UK rail operations. The fact it mentions London Midland should show how old it is. Interestingly there was some annoyance in the Netherlands that they were 'subsidising' us through Abellio.

The £3 million in profit from Greater Anglia in 2012 sounds good but is pretty small in the context of their turnover.

I didn’t notice the date on the video to be honest so fair enough.

I would like to know however whether the combination of foreign owned franchises, foreign built trains, and the associated finance arrangements is delivering value for the UK taxpayer.

 

[Energy]

I would like to know however whether the combination of foreign owned franchises, foreign built trains, and the associated finance arrangements is delivering value for the UK taxpayer.

Right now, probably not brilliantly. Under GBR maybe.

Not that its relevant to this, LNER is nationalised.

 

[yorksrob]

Right now, probably not brilliantly. Under GBR maybe.

Not that its relevant to this, LNER is nationalised.

But the rolling stock (mk4's anyway) isn't.

 

[12LDA28C]

I would like to know however whether the combination of foreign owned franchises, foreign built trains, and the associated finance arrangements is delivering value for the UK taxpayer.

It rather depends on whether you consider that the purpose of a railway is to make money, or to provide an essential service as part of a national infrastructure network.

Right now, probably not brilliantly. Under GBR maybe.

You still believe GBR will happen? I'm not holding my breath.

 

[DustyBin]

It rather depends on whether you consider that the purpose of a railway is to make money, or to provide an essential service as part of a national infrastructure network.

The latter, and I say that as a conservative!

 

[43096]

The latter, and I say that as a conservative!

Although they were built for the former.

 

[800001]

Well that’s a rotten bit of luck, the train crew were stood on Leeds platform waiting for 3A26 out to Bradford, which never turned up!

Correct as mentioned up thread 1A26 started at Leeds with an Azuma.

Things can happen at the last minute.

The mk4 set that should have worked it was ready and able to go.

A very simple mistake meant it didn’t, these things happen.

At least by using an Azuma the worst thing that happened was Bradford to Leeds was cancelled, but the remainder of the diagram was covered.

As for the crew back to the mess room for a cup and to keep warm.

 

[yorksrob]

If you rent a 40-year-old house, do you expect to pay very little because it's "already been paid for"?

No, that's why I'd want to buy it.

 

[43096]

No

So why would that be different from any other form of rent/leasing?

that's why I'd want to buy it.

But you wouldn't buy it at a low cost "because it's already been paid for" - you pay market rate.

 

[YorksLad12]

The evening Skipton service is booked to run as 5 car throughout now. Not sure how a peak departure from Kings Cross was considered suitable to put a 5 car set on, but they must have had a reason for it!

Because the inbound service is from Lincoln. In the really old days they have hitched a few extra carriages on it at Kings Cross before the loco was attached. In these modern times you can't simply have a 5-car set sat sitting at KX, waiting to be coupled up to the inbound service. Or take the 5-car set out of service and replace it with a 9-car set.

 

[Energy]

But the rolling stock (mk4's anyway) isn't.

And the decision on whether they are kept is made by LNER/DfT.

 

[DanNCL]

Nothing original in them? Alternators, traction motors, bogies, rectifiers, brake system...

I'm really not understanding this "the 91s are knackered but the 43s aren't" narrative. What gets knackered by the sort of work they do is things like bogies and wheelsets - which is addressed through planned overhauls. Both fleets have received numerous bogie overhauls through their life and as a safety critical item they are not pushed to the point where they are "knackered".

There’s certainly a lot less original in the HST power cars than there is in a 91. And I wasn’t trying to suggest the HST power cars weren’t knackered, but it has taken an extra 10 years for them to get that that point than it took the 91s.

 

[DustyBin]

Although they were built for the former.

Of course the two don’t have to be mutually exclusive.