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LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

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miklcct

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Here is what the LNER app shows for a search from Edinburgh to London Terminals (via York) now. Every single train in the afternoon is showing the horrendous Anytime fare of £193.90 except the Lumo service, where Advance tickets are still available.

If I remove the "via York" filter, every train is shown as "not available" instead.
 
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Benjwri

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A real shame a previously decent operator decided to go down that route. Very poor leadership and is acting a ruin a strong brand as the press coverage gathers pace.
Realistically this is all down to the DfT, if they tell LNER to do something, they pretty much have to.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wondered if they have literally ordered them not to say it is a DfT idea. Wouldn’t surprise me.

I don't think it is a DfT idea. DfT wanted ideas from TOCs of how to make more money, LNER provided this one is my impression.

View attachment 152607

Here is what the LNER app shows for a search from Edinburgh to London Terminals (via York) now. Every single train in the afternoon is showing the horrendous Anytime fare of £193.90 except the Lumo service, where Advance tickets are still available.

If I remove the "via York" filter, every train is shown as "not available" instead.

Reason it's "sold out" is that without via York it sends you via the WCML which still has reasonable walk up fares so people have all just gone that way.
 
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Joe Paxton

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View attachment 152607

Here is what the LNER app shows for a search from Edinburgh to London Terminals (via York) now. Every single train in the afternoon is showing the horrendous Anytime fare of £193.90 except the Lumo service, where Advance tickets are still available.

If I remove the "via York" filter, every train is shown as "not available" instead.


Perhaps because of the atypical circumstances today - the ECML is closed for four days (Sat 17 - Tue 20 Feb) between King's Cross and Peterborough for East Coast Digital Programme works.

LNER-ECML-closure-17-20-Feb.png
 

modernrail

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I don't think it is a DfT idea. DfT wanted ideas from TOCs of how to make more money, LNER provided this one is my impression.
If that is true then cheers Team LNER. After spending much, much, much more than is required to buy a car on your services over the last 20 years, I really appreciate you single handedly handing the DfT a really stupid idea to totally blow the ability of those who want to try to use your often disrupted and sub-standard railway as a form of transport. Also thanks for lying about your purpose at the same time. Very much appreciated.

Perhaps next you could move to a lottery system to buy tickets less than 3 months in advance, create a game show concept. Hand scratch cards out at stations.

Absolute amateurs.

Perhaps because of the atypical circumstances today - the ECML is closed for four days (Sat 17 - Tue 20 Feb) between King's Cross and Peterborough for East Coast Digital Programme works.

View attachment 152610
Hmmm pretty sure a few weeks ago it would have shows some off-peak tickets at a reasonable price and that would not have been atypical. Nobody ever bought Anytime tickets for non-Anytime seats before this change, unless you were forced to because of one leg. Its inclusion on the options was generally an academic exercise.
 

Bletchleyite

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Perhaps because of the atypical circumstances today - the ECML is closed for four days (Sat 17 - Tue 20 Feb) between King's Cross and Peterborough for East Coast Digital Programme works.

View attachment 152610

There are RRBs. The idea of not releasing any Advances so people are charged that when in reality it should be discounted for the inconvenience utterly stinks.

Edit: there are Advances from Peterborough so it looks like they just failed to release any quota on the RRBs, but that's still nuts.

Curiously Trainline isn't showing splits and TrainSplit doesn't show anything at all, presumably LNER hasn't, because it's to their advantage not to, put a routing easement in for the RRB via Bedford? That is I think potentially anticompetitive behaviour.

Edit edit: TrainSplit does find splits at under £100. Very dubious that Trainline doesn't.
 
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modernrail

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There are RRBs. The idea of not releasing any Advances so people are charged that when in reality it should be discounted for the inconvenience utterly stinks.
Sorry - they are charging anytime fares for a RRB??? That can’t be real surely??
 

Starmill

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Perhaps because of the atypical circumstances today - the ECML is closed for four days (Sat 17 - Tue 20 Feb) between King's Cross and Peterborough for East Coast Digital Programme works.
I'm not contradicting you here, but it's worth noting that while it's a small proportion, there will be at least double figures of days per year when somewhere on the ECML has a block causing similar interruption to today. Some years have been slightly more. The diversionary route days via Cambridge, via Hartlepool or via Hexham aren't able to provide more than 1tph so generally aren't used by many through passengers where the WCML is much quicker, and they offer little capacity. At thWhen you add the same again for unplanned blocks such as last year's structure issues, flooding, overhead wire damage and snow and ice, you will be looking at 30-50 days per year of this level of interruption to the LTP. So yes it is atypical, but worth noting a lot of people will have a journey they'd like to make affected.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sorry - they are charging anytime fares for a RRB??? That can’t be real surely??

They are, yes. Thinking on it is presumably happening because EMR to Bedford doesn't have the right quotas (the RRB is from Bedford), but it's within their power to sort that.

What is that just under £100 fare, one wonders?

It appears to be a London Zones 1-2 to Edinburgh Super Off Peak Single. Which oddly BRFares thinks doesn't exist.
 

Joe Paxton

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There are RRBs. The idea of not releasing any Advances so people are charged that when in reality it should be discounted for the inconvenience utterly stinks.

The LNER booking engine does show Advance tickets for King's Cross to Newcastle journeys tomorrow (Mon 19 Feb) which include the rail replacement bus between Peterborough and Bedford.

Perhaps the Advance quotas for today, which may have been more limited than normal, have simply sold out.

(Also worth noting this weekend is either the end or start of half-term - varies by county / area.)
 

Bletchleyite

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The LNER booking engine does show Advance tickets for King's Cross to Newcastle journeys tomorrow (Mon 19 Feb) which include the rail replacement bus between Peterborough and Bedford.

Perhaps the Advance quotas for today, which may have been more limited than normal, have simply sold out.

They haven't, because there are Advances north from Peterborough. I suspect they've sold out (or never been released) on the connecting EMR.

But this can't be excused. If LNER are moving to effectively Advance only, they need to properly manage them.
 
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Haywain

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I don't think it is a DfT idea. DfT wanted ideas from TOCs of how to make more money, LNER provided this one is my impression.
I think that is a fair assessment of the situation. DfT backed might be a more appropriate term.
 

Joe Paxton

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They haven't, because there are Advances north from Peterborough. I suspect they've sold out (or never been released) on the connecting EMR.

LNER's Advances (for tomorrow & Tuesday) route people via Thameslink from St Pancras to Bedford, not EMR - which makes sense given TL has more capacity.
 

Bletchleyite

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LNER's Advances (for tomorrow & Tuesday) route people via Thameslink from St Pancras to Bedford, not EMR - which makes sense given TL has more capacity.

That'll just be because that's what comes up in the planner as Thameslink operate faster services on weekdays. Today they all come up as EMRs.

Again, LNER needed to think of this.
 

D6700

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Informed comment on who is behind this immoral new approach to fares was posted in another thread some time ago. (Link here).

Don't be fooled - it's very much driven by people inside LNER, and they've been looking to do something like this for several years.

Of course, the DfT will love it, especially given all the smoke and mirrors coming from LNER's spin machine.

Thankfully, knowledge of their fact bending is becoming widespread.
 

Joe Paxton

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That'll just be because that's what comes up in the planner as Thameslink operate faster services on weekdays. Today they all come up as EMRs.

I don't think that's correct. Today's fastest Thameslink trains between St Pancras are 1hr 1min or 1hr 2min, tomorrow (Monday) they are 1 hour or 1hr 1min - meanwhile both today (Sun) and tomorrow (Mon) EMR have the fastest trains between St Pancras and Bedford.

EMR have limited capacity and won't have wanted their long-distance trains to be full of diverted LNER pax only travelling between London and Bedford (so I imagine EMR will have blocked their trains for use with LNER Advance tickets, whilst Thameslink will have agreed to carry LNER pax.)
 

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There are RRBs. The idea of not releasing any Advances so people are charged that when in reality it should be discounted for the inconvenience utterly stinks.
Of course there's a huge advantage in this for LNER, in that they don't need to be paying for anything like as many replacement buses...
 

Bletchleyite

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EMR have limited capacity and won't have wanted their long-distance trains to be full of diverted LNER pax only travelling between London and Bedford (so I imagine EMR will have blocked their trains for use with LNER Advance tickets, whilst Thameslink will have agreed to carry LNER pax.)

That may be true, but I don't believe it is possible to make the planners take that into account (it may even be seen as anticompetitive to do so) - they just find the fastest permitted routes and show the fares for them. Hence why the WCML Scotland trains are all sold out today - they are routing that way by default as it is quicker.

It will simply be that via York the EMRs are the quickest connections.

There probably needs to be a big change to the algorithms of the planners to put much more weight on finding cheaper options and substituting for sold out trains given this major paradigm shift.
 

Joe Paxton

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That may be true, but I don't believe it is possible to make the planners take that into account - they just find the fastest permitted routes and show the fares for them. Hence why the WCML Scotland trains are all sold out today - they are routing that way by default as it is quicker.

It will simply be that via York the EMRs are the quickest connections.

Something like this has to be possible, as otherwise the LNER booking engine wouldn't be showing their Advance tickets for London to Newcastle for tomorrow and Tuesday (19 & 20 Feb) which route one via Thameslink from St P to Bedford, RRB to Peterborough and then LNER train onwards to Newcastle.
 
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modernrail

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Informed comment on who is behind this immoral new approach to fares was posted in another thread some time ago. (Link here).



Of course, the DfT will love it, especially given all the smoke and mirrors coming from LNER's spin machine.

Thankfully, knowledge of their fact bending is becoming widespread.
If that is the case, what I dont understand is what LNER think their mandate is to do this, bearing in mind that LNER is a publicly owned company.

Why would people within LNER wish to breach the settled position on ‘regulated’ fares, in a manner that is blatantly a lot worse for customers, unless either they are either being told to by their paymasters or if the board of LNER personally stand to profit by increased bonus from increased revenue.

Counted places is a different thing. I can see people within LNER wanting an easier life and so wanting to stop people travelling without a booked seat. I still say the answer to that is less of the cheaper end Advance fares leaving more space for later booking higher value off peak tickets.

But LNER personnel actually promoting active and significant passenger fleecing. Why?
 

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Something like this has to be possible, as otherwise the LNER booking engine wouldn't be showing their Advance tickets for London to Newcastle for tomorrow and Tuesday (19 & 20 Feb) which route one via Thameslink from St P to Bedford, RRB to Peterborough and then LNER train onwards to Newcastle.

The timings are not the same, so likely EMR makes better connections today but Thameslink does tomorrow.
 

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If that is the case, what I dont understand is what LNER think their mandate is to do this, bearing in mind that LNER is a publicly owned company.

Why would people within LNER wish to breach the settled position on ‘regulated’ fares, in a manner that is blatantly a lot worse for customers, unless either they are either being told to by their paymasters or if the board of LNER personally stand to profit by increased bonus from increased revenue.

Counted places is a different thing. I can see people within LNER wanting an easier life and so wanting to stop people travelling without a booked seat. I still say the answer to that is less of the cheaper end Advance fares leaving more space for later booking higher value off peak tickets.

But LNER personnel actually promoting active and significant passenger fleecing. Why?
Train companies have wanted to remove regulated fares for years.
They say regulation is outdated, belongs in the 1990s etc.
Train companies also say fares are too complicated and difficult for passengers to understand (overlooking the fact that they have introduced much of the complications themselves)
DfT wants to reduce the cost of the railway to the passenger, no doubt under 'instruction' from The Treasury
LNER is nationalised which makes it easier to conduct 'experiments' for the DfT as different contractual arrangements with the DfT apply compared to the other franchised TOCs

Train companies/DfT/The Treasury cannot be trusted when it comes to fares simplification/reform. I've been saying for years that simplification would result in fares increasing and here's the proof.
 

AdamWW

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Train companies have wanted to remove regulated fares for years.
They say regulation is outdated, belongs in the 1990s etc.
Train companies also say fares are too complicated and difficult for passengers to understand (overlooking the fact that they have introduced much of the complications themselves)
DfT wants to reduce the cost of the railway to the passenger, no doubt under 'instruction' from The Treasury
LNER is nationalised which makes it easier to conduct 'experiments' for the DfT as different contractual arrangements with the DfT apply compared to the other franchised TOCs

Train companies/DfT/The Treasury cannot be trusted when it comes to fares simplification/reform. I've been saying for years that simplification would result in fares increasing and here's the proof.

This all makes sense.

But doesn't revenue now just get returned to the treasury?

In which case what do ToCs gain now by raising fares?

Though I presume by
DfT wants to reduce the cost of the railway to the passenger,
you meant the taxpayer.
 

modernrail

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Train companies have wanted to remove regulated fares for years.
They say regulation is outdated, belongs in the 1990s etc.
Train companies also say fares are too complicated and difficult for passengers to understand (overlooking the fact that they have introduced much of the complications themselves)
DfT wants to reduce the cost of the railway to the passenger, no doubt under 'instruction' from The Treasury
LNER is nationalised which makes it easier to conduct 'experiments' for the DfT as different contractual arrangements with the DfT apply compared to the other franchised TOCs

Train companies/DfT/The Treasury cannot be trusted when it comes to fares simplification/reform. I've been saying for years that simplification would result in fares increasing and here's the proof.
I very much get why privatised franchises would because there is a profit motive. I am struggling to see why the management team of LNER under public ownership would feel the same urge, unless told to have that urge or being incentivised to have that urge.
 
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