LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Haywain]

Not at all.

There are a substantial number of people who don't drive and rely on rail for their main form of longer distance transport where the service is effectively controlled by wealthy individuals who will mainly have access to a car.

I didn’t say otherwise but are you actually arguing thar car ownership is not common among rail users? And car ownership is certainly not restricted to the wealthy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn’t say otherwise but are you actually arguing thar car ownership is not common among rail users? And car ownership is certainly not restricted to the wealthy.

Increasingly young people live in urban areas and are choosing, due to the very high cost, not to take up driving, though they may do in later life of course.

 

[AdamWW]

I didn’t say otherwise but are you actually arguing thar car ownership is not common among rail users? And car ownership is certainly not restricted to the wealthy.

I'm sure the majority of rail passengers do have access to a car. But there will be a significant minority who do not.

It seems unlikely to me that there is the same fraction of such people among those with the power to effectively abolish flexible tickets.

In my experience (and not in a railway context) people who have never had to rely on public transport often show little understanding of the needs of, or indeed sympathy towards, those who do.

 

[ChrisC]

There are a substantial number of people who don't drive and rely on rail for their main form of longer distance transport where the service is effectively controlled by wealthy individuals who will mainly have access to a car.

Many of these people also rely on buses to travel to and from the railway station. Although I do have a car, if I’m going away for a days by train I use the bus to get to the station. That’s one of the reasons why I don’t like using Advance Tickets. My bus route to the station is only hourly and very occasionally a bus may not turn up. To avoid unnecessarily stress I would rather pay a little bit more for a fully flexible ticket. I’m quite happy with paying for Off Peak tickets but would not pay some of the ridiculous Anytime fares. If ever I do occasionally use an Advance Ticket I end up going on a bus to the station 2 hours early to be sure not to miss my train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many of these people also rely on buses to travel to and from the railway station. Although I do have a car, if I’m going away for a days by train I use the bus to get to the station. That’s one of the reasons why I don’t like using Advance Tickets. My bus route to the station is only hourly and very occasionally a bus may not turn up. To avoid unnecessarily stress I would rather pay a little bit more for a fully flexible ticket. I’m quite happy with paying for Off Peak tickets but would not pay some of the ridiculous Anytime fares. If ever I do occasionally use an Advance Ticket I end up going on a bus to the station 2 hours early to be sure not to miss my train.

Is not the 70 minute Advance intended for this exact use case?

 

[ChrisC]

Is not the 70 minute Advance intended for this exact use case?

It probably is, but I would still rather have the flexibility of being able to use which ever train I like, deviate where permitted from the direct route, and to be able to break my journey if I feel the need to. For example when I was recently travelling down from Glasgow to Nottingham, intending to change at Crewe, there was a delay which would have resulted in a missed connection and a long wait at Crewe. Having an Off Peak ticket and not an Advance, meant that I was able to change my plans mid journey and change at Preston and Manchester instead.

 

[AdamWW]

It probably is, but I would still rather have the flexibility of being able to use which ever train I like, deviate where permitted from the direct route, and to be able to break my journey if I feel the need to. For example when I was recently travelling down from Glasgow to Nottingham, intending to change at Crewe, there was a delay which would have resulted in a missed connection and a long wait at Crewe. Having an Off Peak ticket and not an Advance, meant that I was able to change my plans mid journey and change at Preston and Manchester instead.

Not to mention a guaranteed fare at a regulated price, as opposed to whatever the railway wants to charge at that particular time with the only effective cap being an anytime fare.

 

[Haywain]

I'm sure the majority of rail passengers do have access to a car. But there will be a significant minority who do not.

I have no idea why you are arguing about this. I said a high percentage will have easy access to cars, a statement which doesn't deny that a significant number will not.

 

[island]

I think (before this) LNER had made Friday afternoon off peak, but I don't think they did it for the morning?

No, they just ended the Friday afternoon peak 44 minutes earlier than Mon-Thu.

 

[modernrail]

It's certainly bizarre how they conclude that that is a good idea following several paragraphs that read to me as if they are saying it isn't!

Yes, the whole thing is pretty amateur, to be honest, citing stuff like the German cheap regional tickets with no indication about how they might be funded here.

It's also wrong or at least out of date in saying that LNER cut off Advance sales at midnight - they do nothing of the sort, it's a few minutes before departure.

I don't agree.

I think we are seeing policy based on the principle that the needs of those who rely on public transport should not be considered. I would argue that this is much more likely to be the case when those making the decisions are not themselves in that position.

A vanishingly small number (and likely zero) of those in a position to end off peak flexible fares will themselves be reliant on them.

If someone has no practical alternative to the train, the fact that the majority of passengers could just choose to drive instead doesn't make their needs any different.

I find it most curious that the Campaign For Better Transport appear to believe that pushing more people into car ownership aligns with their goals.



That's true but given the much larger spread of the rail network compared to air and coaches there are many journeys where driving and catching the train are the only real options.

Great post.

Through the craziness of accounting I could have bought a Tesla through my company this year almost for free in real terms. I didn’t, purely on the basis that, despite the non-stop crap in terms of usability of the service, I wanted to commit to using a travel mode that doesn’t involve a couple of tonnes of metal being produced and powered to haul my 70kg ass and associated body parts around. This despite the fact that the depreciation on a train ticket is immediate and 100%.

Should have bought the Tesla.

Many of these people also rely on buses to travel to and from the railway station. Although I do have a car, if I’m going away for a days by train I use the bus to get to the station. That’s one of the reasons why I don’t like using Advance Tickets. My bus route to the station is only hourly and very occasionally a bus may not turn up. To avoid unnecessarily stress I would rather pay a little bit more for a fully flexible ticket. I’m quite happy with paying for Off Peak tickets but would not pay some of the ridiculous Anytime fares. If ever I do occasionally use an Advance Ticket I end up going on a bus to the station 2 hours early to be sure not to miss my train.

Exactly. We don’t have integrated transport, the system is more than happy to shaft you for its own mistakes. Off-peaks are a very very important tool of defence to an over-excited guard offering no sympathy for your position and issuing you with a bill for a full spice single (the system having being set up to totally forget that your advance fare ever existed, even though it did)

 

[yorksrob]

I didn’t say otherwise but are you actually arguing thar car ownership is not common among rail users? And car ownership is certainly not restricted to the wealthy.

No, I'm saying that classes who have a high degree of car ownership have a disproportional influence over the transport facilities of those who don't.

Many of these people also rely on buses to travel to and from the railway station. Although I do have a car, if I’m going away for a days by train I use the bus to get to the station. That’s one of the reasons why I don’t like using Advance Tickets. My bus route to the station is only hourly and very occasionally a bus may not turn up. To avoid unnecessarily stress I would rather pay a little bit more for a fully flexible ticket. I’m quite happy with paying for Off Peak tickets but would not pay some of the ridiculous Anytime fares. If ever I do occasionally use an Advance Ticket I end up going on a bus to the station 2 hours early to be sure not to miss my train.

Exactly. The Establishment have no interest in our requirements.

 

[Mikw]

Does anyone know of an organisation that doesn't support this change?

I suspect this is an example of how differently people see things when the train is just a potential alternative to their car rather than a necessity.

No cheap fares, or even trains all booked up for the next few days? Not sure when I'll want to head back? Want to stop off on the way? Oh well it would have been nice to catch the train but I'll just have to drive.

They say they want to reduce congestion and CO2 emissions. How about replacing fuel tax with road pricing, and an eye-watering rate per mile for those who aren't able to book one of the cheap time slots in advance? I don't think that would go down very well, but somehow it's OK to put this sort of restriction on people who don't drive.

It's funny you mention road pricing in a discussion about a new train ticket policy that'll cost almost everyone a lot more - I would imsgine we'll get both. and our rights to travel will be seriously curtailed - unless we're rich of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's funny you mention road pricing in a discussion about a new train ticket policy that'll cost almost everyone a lot more - I would imsgine we'll get both. and our rights to travel will be seriously curtailed - unless we're rich of course.

Road pricing will just replace fuel tax for EVs and is unlikely to be that swingeing for e.g. motorway journeys.

 

[Mikw]

Road pricing will just replace fuel tax for EVs and is unlikely to be that swingeing for e.g. motorway journeys.

Well, it the LNER move wasn't that likely so we'll see. I don't see sensible increases, just excessive ones when it comes to change at the moment. One things for sure, reforms are usually driven by the desire to raise revenue, so any road charges will be expected to hit a revenue target

 

[Haywain]

No, I'm saying that classes who have a high degree of car ownership have a disproportional influence over the transport facilities of those who don't.

You're replying to a comment that wasn't directed at you.

 

[yorksrob]

You're replying to a comment that wasn't directed at you.

So I was - oops.

However, my point still stands.

 

[A S Leib]

Having an Off Peak ticket and not an Advance, meant that I was able to change my plans mid journey and change at Preston and Manchester instead.

A way to fix that would be making all advance tickets anytime singles in the event of disruption causing delays of over an hour.

 

[modernrail]

A way to fix that would be making all advance tickets anytime singles in the event of disruption causing delays of over an hour.

How about if you know ahead that your 2nd train of two is looking dodgy and so you decide to get an earlier 1st train, on the basis that you need to get somewhere on time.

I did that 3 times over Christmas because of potential problems with a second train Birmingham to Stafford, and twice between Wigan and Southport.

In all 3 cases it came to pass. I would have been hours late but because I forward planned and took some educated guesses looking at the service falling apart I was able to work around the problem (using Trainline to plan because the National Rail App has bacillary become unusable).

Also, do you seriously expect passengers to hold in their head yet another complication and guards and ticket barriers to be able to reprogramme their minds/systems that frequently. These are not occasionally events. They occur day in day out.

More of my train journeys have been disrupted in the last 12 months than not. A lot more.

 

[Wallsendmag]

How about if you know ahead that your 2nd train of two is looking dodgy and so you decide to get an earlier 1st train, on the basis that you need to get somewhere on time.

I did that 3 times over Christmas because of potential problems with a second train Birmingham to Stafford, and twice between Wigan and Southport.

In all 3 cases it came to pass. I would have been hours late but because I forward planned and took some educated guesses looking at the service falling apart I was able to work around the problem (using Trainline to plan because the National Rail App has bacillary become unusable).

Also, do you seriously expect passengers to hold in their head yet another complication and guards and ticket barriers to be able to reprogramme their minds/systems that frequently. These are not occasionally events. They occur day in day out.

More of my train journeys have been disrupted in the last 12 months than not. A lot more.

You have 70 minutes to do just that

 

[modernrail]

You have 70 minutes to do just that

To go via a different route? To get the train 2 hours earlier? That’s what I did on both occasions. 2 hours earlier, via Liverpool instead of Wigan. Why? Because if disruption is in the offing - it is almost certainly more than an hour fix/workaround. On the second occasion I turned up at my sisters within minutes of the original planned arrival time.

And before anybody says, a reasonable guard will take account of etc etc, I want contractual certainty, and there are a lot of unreasonable guards or guards who fear a ticking off for being reasonable - or more often than not, they just haven’t managed to keep a mental picture of every disruption on feeder routes to their routes because they are - busy.

 

[bakerstreet]

To go via a different route? To get the train 2 hours earlier? That’s what I did on both occasions. 2 hours earlier, via Liverpool instead of Wigan.

And before anybody says, a reasonable guard will take account of etc etc, I want contractual certainty, and there are a lot of unreasonable guards or guards who fear a ticking off for being reasonable - or more often than not, they just haven’t managed to keep a mental picture of every disruption on feeder routes to their routes because they are - busy.

Also the 70 mins appears to be fixed to the original scheduled departure time of your train and unfortunately that 70 mins does not provide further flex in times of disruption.
Your booked train delayed by an hour? No other train from same TOC any earlier? Then that’s likely to be the only one you can catch.

(I may be wrong about this but it’s how I read the terms)

 

[Meerkat]

A lot of the complaints about this (apart from the fare rise) seem to be about not being able to do things that I reckon the vast majority of passengers don‘t even know they can do, let alone want to - break of journey, going various routes etc.
Nowadays I think the majority of passengers know the railway is crushingly expensive unless they buy in advance, and act accordingly - look up advances, buy inflexible advance, or travel by another method.

 

[modernrail]

A lot of the complaints about this (apart from the fare rise) seem to be about not being able to do things that I reckon the vast majority of passengers don‘t even know they can do, let alone want to - break of journey, going various routes etc.
Nowadays I think the majority of passengers know the railway is crushingly expensive unless they buy in advance, and act accordingly - look up advances, buy inflexible advance, or travel by another method.

Yes there has been a slide to more restrictions and more ways to catch passengers out. Yes passengers constantly complain about that. I have witnessed people who missed their advance and are stung for a full price single in tears - plenty of times. I don’t find it civilised behaviour to do that sort of thing to people.

Off peak tickets are not crushingly expensive. They are quite expensive. Anytime fares are crushingly expensive.

More off peak tickets are sold than advances. That is therefore what most people choose to buy. That suggests people get the flexibility they offer. Why do you think passengers are so thick!? Especially when the ratio of ticket types suggests the opposite.

The ticket selling interfaces often try and entrap people into buying an advance rather than a similar priced off peak - so yes, the ‘system’ has been trying all sorts of shafting for a while now.

You either believe in a reasonable level of flexibility to make the railway workable as an actual form of transport or you don’t. It is really clear that a lot of people on this thread don’t, a lot of people do. The former is a bit odd for this particular forum but there you go.

There is also an awful lot of flip flopping. One minute, buying these fares is a marginal activity (fine, so that’s not how you sort revenue out, look elsewhere). Then the next second, the railway is finished if we do not purge the masses using these fares and their god damn just about reasonable flexibility. Which is it? Can’t be both.

To those who don’t believe that flexibility is important, well done - you are adding to the arguments that will push those who can’t afford a car, chose to support the railway by making it their primary form of transport, or chose to make a conscious decision on emissions, congestion, climate change etc (or all 3)

 

[trainstrainstr]

Well - we have a 2 year trial to see how it goes apparently. Is 2 years really a trial?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well - we have a 2 year trial to see how it goes apparently. Is 2 years really a trial?!

It does take rather a while to establish consumer choices in this sort of thing. For instance new bus services often take 3-5 years to establish.

At least it's unlikely it'll be rolled out further in that time, and it's enough time for the Government to change!

 

[yorksrob]

Well - we have a 2 year trial to see how it goes apparently. Is 2 years really a trial?!

In the hope that everyone forgets its a trial.

Perhaps the next Government will rethink it

 

[Silver Cobra]

Another reason why the trial could be running for two years is to allow the full implementation of LNER's proposed future timetable for when projects like the East Coast Digital Programme are completed. Implementing these fares on the existing timetable wouldn't work for several LNER-served stations (Stevenage, Retford and Northallerton come to mind), but once the new timetable is in place it may be a bit more feasible.

 

[robbeech]

A lot of the complaints about this (apart from the fare rise) seem to be about not being able to do things that I reckon the vast majority of passengers don‘t even know they can do, let alone want to - break of journey, going various routes etc.
Nowadays I think the majority of passengers know the railway is crushingly expensive unless they buy in advance, and act accordingly - look up advances, buy inflexible advance, or travel by another method.

They can carry on buying advance singles then. This won't change, apart from the fact they'll get more expensive due to the lack of price cap of the super off peak single. So, those who don't know will find out the hard way when its suddenly twice the price.


I'm still not sure how you can have a trial to see what works best for passengers if you only offer 1 product.

 

[thedbdiboy]

More off peak tickets are sold than advances. That is therefore what most people choose to buy. That suggests people get the flexibility they offer. Why do you think passengers are so thick!? Especially when the ratio of ticket types suggests the opposite.

According to LNER, about 12% of sales on the trial flows are off-peak ticket types. The biggest single influencer of purchase is price. A proportion of those off-peak tickets will be on the day sales too.

Flexibility is a factor and getting that formulation rights for the semi-flexible ticket will be key. However, in real life the rankings for the different elements of the flexibility will vary. Being able to get a different train will be very high indeed. Paying a price that is similar to what they have been used to paying for an off-peak fare will also be very high. I suspect that 'being able to change at Peterborough and then go via Cambridge , stopping off for a cup of tea, and then going into Liverpool St because its a permitted route' will be a very long way down most people's list.

 

[WelshBluebird]

According to LNER, about 12% of sales on the trial flows are off-peak ticket types.

More than every one 1 in 9 is a pretty high number of tickets!

Paying a price that is similar to what they have been used to paying for an off-peak fare will also be very high

but they aren't going to be doing that - they'll likely be paying more