LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Starmill]

I looked at next Friday and the LNER website wouldn't allow me to buy an off-peak travelcard. Though, on the other hand, I don't get the semi-flexible tickets on this flow, so maybe I can still buy it at a ticket office. Quite confusing.

The day returns and day travelcards haven't been changed for the time being.

 

[Fermiboson]

Does anyone have/is anyone compiling a list of routes on which Advance fares have been increasing, and on which services?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Does anyone have/is anyone compiling a list of routes on which Advance fares have been increasing, and on which services?

Over how long a period?

 

[Fermiboson]

Over how long a period?

After this change has been introduced.

 

[Haywain]

After this change has been introduced.

In which case the list of routes will be quite short, seeing as only 3 flows are involved in the 'trial'.

 

[Wallsendmag]

At most KGX-NCL/BWK/EDB

 

[PeterC]

This change will definitely make things simpler for passengers currently using super off peak tickets. A quick look at the new prices and its a simple decision to drive or fly instead

I don't see it as simpler. For an outbound journey it gives you some protection against "first mile" delays before reaching the station. I know that when using an advance I catch the bus before the one that should in theory, get me to the station on time.

For the return journey there is a serious loss of flexibility unless you travel times are as rigidly fixed as the outbound ones.

Different maybe, but not simpler.

 

[D6700]

With more data now available to understand the mechanisms behind the changes, I thought I'd take a look at the effect of these changes on rail staff, who are entitled to Privilege fares (Priv), with 75% off flexible fares. Obviously, this is a niche aspect that is not applicable to the vast majority passengers.

Currently, from London to Edinburgh, a Priv Super Off Peak Single costs £21.75 for fully flexible travel within the applicable time constraints.

Under the new regime, this fare will be abolished - superficially being replaced by the 70min Flex Single, at a fixed rate of £25.90.

Immediately, this can be seen to be a 19% increase in the fare - and for a substantially inferior product.

However, despite this fixed fare, it is actually an "Advance" product that is directly affected by public quotas.

The Priv ticket type is "DMP". Essentially, if the public fare is at or below the DMP 70min Flex rate of £103.70, a Priv 70min Flex Single will be available at a fixed rate of £25.90. i.e. The proper Priv rate only applies when the public fare is exactly £103.70. The lowest public fare for a 70min Flex is £51.20, but the Priv rate remains £25.90 - a discount of just 49%, rather than the usual 75%.

When the public 70min Flex fare exceeds £103.70, the Priv rate ticket ceases to be available - see screenshot. The result is that it becomes necessary to purchase the Anytime ticket at £48.45, which is a 123% increase in the fare payable.

Whilst, for now, this scheme can easily be worked around by those in the know, if/when it is rolled out wholesale, it will massively affect discretionary travel. Because of the discounted fares available, rail staff tend to be more spontaneous and will often make discretionary journeys at short notice. It would become a choice of booking miles in advance to only pay 20% more than now, for substantially less flexibility, or wait - and have to pay more than double the current fare. In that case, discretionary journeys are less likely to be made, meaning the railway loses out. I can say for certain that neither of my most recent trips on LNER would have taken place had this new regime been in place.

 

[Wallsendmag]

With more data now available to understand the mechanisms behind the changes, I thought I'd take a look at the effect of these changes on rail staff, who are entitled to Privilege fares (Priv), with 75% off flexible fares. Obviously, this is a niche aspect that is not applicable to the vast majority passengers.

Currently, from London to Edinburgh, a Priv Super Off Peak Single costs £21.75 for fully flexible travel within the applicable time constraints.

Under the new regime, this fare will be abolished - superficially being replaced by the 70min Flex Single, at a fixed rate of £25.90.

Immediately, this can be seen to be a 19% increase in the fare - and for a substantially inferior product.

However, despite this fixed fare, it is actually an "Advance" product that is directly affected by public quotas.

The Priv ticket type is "DMP". Essentially, if the public fare is at or below the DMP 70min Flex rate of £103.70, a Priv 70min Flex Single will be available at a fixed rate of £25.90. i.e. The proper Priv rate only applies when the public fare is exactly £103.70. The lowest public fare for a 70min Flex is £51.20, but the Priv rate remains £25.90 - a discount of just 49%, rather than the usual 75%.

When the public 70min Flex fare exceeds £103.70, the Priv rate ticket ceases to be available - see screenshot. The result is that it becomes necessary to purchase the Anytime ticket at £48.45, which is a 123% increase in the fare payable.

Whilst, for now, this scheme can easily be worked around by those in the know, if/when it is rolled out wholesale, it will massively affect discretionary travel. Because of the discounted fares available, rail staff tend to be more spontaneous and will often make discretionary journeys at short notice. It would become a choice of booking miles in advance to only pay 20% more than now, for substantially less flexibility, or wait - and have to pay more than double the current fare. In that case, discretionary journeys are less likely to be made, meaning the railway loses out. I can say for certain that neither of my most recent trips on LNER would have taken place had this new regime been in place.

Isn’t Priv discount also available on the BUS normal Advance ?

 

[Tomo]

https://twitter.com/DavidHorne/status/1751549533396373787?t=dATWEgf1axGB1jYxOx3osw&s=19

David Horne thinks off peak tickets are good when other operators do them

 

[D6700]

Isn’t Priv discount also available on the BUS normal Advance ?

No, at least not on BR Fares or the RST site.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Isn’t Priv discount also available on the BUS normal Advance ?

Yup. The relevant staff brief says it's also available on ticket type OES for those holding First Class travel facilities, and DMP/DNR for the 70 minute Flex tickets. Normal Railcard discounts apply to most 70 minute Flex tickets, though 16-17 Saver and Family & Friends Railcard discounts only apply to Standard Class, and Jobcentre Plus discounts only apply to ticket type DMP.

Presumably this is all being controlled at a journey level rather than a blanket enablement though, which could explain why BRFares isn't showing the discount on the Advances. Either that, or it hasn't actually been setup for the Advances yet.

 

[trainstrainstr]

Surely the operator of LNER branded trains is Dft OLR trains Ltd (or whatever) so LNER doesn't actually exist as a separate entity other than it is a wholly owned subsidiary company?

They are a separate entity, same as Northern and TPE. Each have their own commercial interests to look after. You can still be a subsidiary and a separate entity. They have to be separate, competition law comes in to it.

On another note been watching the FOIs which slowed down after a couple of days. Look like John Doe submitted an FOI last night….pop quiz - can you submit FOIs anonymously? Yes or no?

I know the FOI person calls out people using pseudonyms, and to be fair if we expect them to be transparent - it’s only fair to be transparent the other way! There was one recently where she said outright “I think you’re an LNER employee pretending to be someone else”

 

[yorksrob]

They are a separate entity, same as Northern and TPE. Each have their own commercial interests to look after. You can still be a subsidiary and a separate entity. They have to be separate, competition law comes in to it.

On another note been watching the FOIs which slowed down after a couple of days. Look like John Doe submitted an FOI last night….pop quiz - can you submit FOIs anonymously? Yes or no?

I know the FOI person calls out people using pseudonyms, and to be fair if we expect them to be transparent - it’s only fair to be transparent the other way! There was one recently where she said outright “I think you’re an LNER employee pretending to be someone else”

Individual citizens aren't purporting to run a service. Why would LNER need to know who's asking the question.

 

[MrJeeves]

On another note been watching the FOIs which slowed down after a couple of days. Look like John Doe submitted an FOI last night….pop quiz - can you submit FOIs anonymously? Yes or no?

No, but it'll be hard for them to tell if it's a pseudonym if you pick a good one!

The requester can be an individual, a company or a pre-existing and identifiable organisation or group. In each case, they must provide their real name, either of the individual or organisation.

A request made under a pseudonym is invalid.

There is a low threshold for meeting the requirement to describe the information. A description is valid if it contains sufficient detail for the requested information to be distinguished from other information which you hold.

If the description of the information is unclear or ambiguous, you must ask the requester for clarification in accordance with section 1(3) of FOIA.

Recognising a request made under the Freedom of Information Act (section 8)

ico.org.uk

I know the FOI person calls out people using pseudonyms, and to be fair if we expect them to be transparent - it’s only fair to be transparent the other way! There was one recently where she said outright “I think you’re an LNER employee pretending to be someone else”

I assume that's this one:

I would like to address a concern regarding the identity used in your request. Based on the context and nature of your inquiry, it appears that you might be using a pseudonym. This observation stems from a certain level of contextual understanding or awareness in your request that suggests a deeper familiarity with internal matters at LNER.

Awards Expenses Communications Team - a Freedom of Information request to London North Eastern Railway Limited

Following various posts from your Communications Team within LNER can you advise on the following within the last 5 years. How many award entries have LNER's Communications Team submitted within their team and Social Media - LinkedIn posts, I believe they're under the same department. This is...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Individual citizens aren't purporting to run a service. Why would LNER need to know who's asking the question.

Because that's the law.

 

[Fermiboson]

They are a separate entity, same as Northern and TPE. Each have their own commercial interests to look after. You can still be a subsidiary and a separate entity. They have to be separate, competition law comes in to it.

On another note been watching the FOIs which slowed down after a couple of days. Look like John Doe submitted an FOI last night….pop quiz - can you submit FOIs anonymously? Yes or no?

I know the FOI person calls out people using pseudonyms, and to be fair if we expect them to be transparent - it’s only fair to be transparent the other way! There was one recently where she said outright “I think you’re an LNER employee pretending to be someone else”

You technically can't submit it anonymously, so the FOI person is within their rights to ask for a real name (but an outright refusal to further respond would be seen as deliberate stonewalling, I think). It then depends on whether the requester wants to give their real name or not.

 

[trainstrainstr]

You technically can't submit it anonymously, so the FOI person is within their rights to ask for a real name (but an outright refusal to further respond would be seen as deliberate stonewalling, I think). It then depends on whether the requester wants to give their real name or not.

I think they’re allowed to take steps to verify identity if they strongly feel somethings amiss. But using “John Doe”… I mean really? You couldn’t have chosen something less obvious.

I can’t remember the specifics, but my colleague told me once of someone who was using cartoon characters names or names from a PC game and being adamant that yes, that was their name.

 

[Fermiboson]

I think they’re allowed to take steps to verify identity if they strongly feel somethings amiss. But using “John Doe”… I mean really? You couldn’t have chosen something less obvious.

I can’t remember the specifics, but my colleague told me once of someone who was using cartoon characters names or names from a PC game and being adamant that yes, that was their name.

Tbh, I think the point of that is to be obvious (so that there is no lying involved).

 

[paul1609]

They are a separate entity, same as Northern and TPE. Each have their own commercial interests to look after. You can still be a subsidiary and a separate entity. They have to be separate, competition law comes in to it.

Why do small TOCs like LNER and TPE have to be maintained as seperate entities when Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express were merged in to one?
There would appear to be massive cost savings for taxpayers in much slimmed down management for a combined Northern Franchise. if there really is a need for seperate brands theres no reason why they couldnt be maintained.

 

[A S Leib]

Why do small TOCs like LNER and TPE have to be maintained as seperate entities when Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express were merged in to one?

LNER had almost as many passengers as EMR did in 2022-3 without having any regional / local services (23.4 mn vs 25.5 mn). The main difference for passenger numbers does seem to be whether or not the TOC provides any London commuter services though; c2c has around two-thirds of EMR's and LNER's combined ridership (34 mn), Greater Anglia's above 60 mn and Southeastern close to double that.

(This isn't meant to be an argument for or against merging, as I don't know if smaller or larger's better, but making the point that there's different ways of defining large and small TOCs, e.g. if you counted by trains operated by hour, LNER (5 departures from London) would definitely be behind EMR.)

 

[Sealink]

So I imagine there will be lots of confusion and "reserved" seats left empty if people change their train +/- 70 minutes around their booked train, given LNERs requirement to book a seat on the train you decide to travel on.


Also, have jusr checked fares to/from Haymarket where Super Off Peak Singles still exist and are cheaper than the 70 minute ticket to Edinburgh. Fares simplified. Maybe this will get Barry Doe temporarily out of retirement!

 

[paul1609]

LNER had almost as many passengers as EMR did in 2022-3 without having any regional / local services (23.4 mn vs 25.5 mn). The main difference for passenger numbers does seem to be whether or not the TOC provides any London commuter services though; c2c has around two-thirds of EMR's and LNER's combined ridership (34 mn), Greater Anglia's above 60 mn and Southeastern close to double that.

(This isn't meant to be an argument for or against merging, as I don't know if smaller or larger's better, but making the point that there's different ways of defining large and small TOCs, e.g. if you counted by trains operated by hour, LNER (5 departures from London) would definitely be behind EMR.)

Its not just passenger numbers I believe that GTRs revenue = LNER + AWC + 1/2 GWR

 

[800001]

So I imagine there will be lots of confusion and "reserved" seats left empty if people change their train +/- 70 minutes around their booked train.

Also, have jusr checked fares to/from Haymarket where Super Off Peak Singles still exist and are cheaper than the 70 minute ticket to Edinburgh. Fares simplified

Yes, people are saying to use London to Manors or London to Haymarket to get around the new ‘simplified’ fares.

 

[Haywain]

Why do small TOCs like LNER and TPE have to be maintained as seperate entities when Thameslink, Southern and Gatwick Express were merged in to one?

I think it's generally recognised that GTR suffers from trying to be several different franchises at the same time. Bigger franchises do not necessarily mean more efficient management.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So I imagine there will be lots of confusion and "reserved" seats left empty if people change their train +/- 70 minutes around their booked train, given LNERs requirement to book a seat on the train you decide to travel on

There is no such requirement. But if you do it'd involve changing the ticket, not just making a separate reservation, which will cancel the old one.

 

[takno]

Its not just passenger numbers I believe that GTRs revenue = LNER + AWC + 1/2 GWR

The entire rationale for merging everything into GTR was to make Thameslink run smoother. What actually happened was that the Southern service immediately fell to pieces when they lost their relatively competent management, and Thameslink probably didn't go any more smoothly than it would have done anyway. Nothing about the whole situation is an advert for doing it again.

 

[Failed Unit]

The entire rationale for merging everything into GTR was to make Thameslink run smoother. What actually happened was that the Southern service immediately fell to pieces when they lost their relatively competent management, and Thameslink probably didn't go any more smoothly than it would have done anyway. Nothing about the whole situation is an advert for doing it again.

That is the thing - we are probably going off topic - but GTR as far as the customer is concern is still seeing 3 companies. Great Northern and Thameslink has separate directors.

Back to the topic, has anyone seen any positive things out of this trail. The only one I can see is the new first class ticket as previously you had Advanced or Full fare. Does it matter? Probably not, but the extra wriggle room should the connecting service be later helps. But then if a connecting service is later you can take the next train anyway so probably not relevant either.

 

[D6700]

Yup. The relevant staff brief says it's also available on ticket type OES for those holding First Class travel facilities, and DMP/DNR for the 70 minute Flex tickets. Normal Railcard discounts apply to most 70 minute Flex tickets, though 16-17 Saver and Family & Friends Railcard discounts only apply to Standard Class, and Jobcentre Plus discounts only apply to ticket type DMP.

Presumably this is all being controlled at a journey level rather than a blanket enablement though, which could explain why BRFares isn't showing the discount on the Advances. Either that, or it hasn't actually been setup for the Advances yet.

I suspect it's the latter, as they are not available to purchase from the RST website, even on the odd occasion the public fare exactly matches the "BUS" fare tier of £83.70, in the case of London to Edinburgh.

If LNER actually make these Advances available to purchase, they will be the only official way of avoiding the hyperinflationary overnight fare rises, but only until the "BUS" tier is sold out. A Priv Advance at the "BUS" fare tier would be within £1 of the price of the current flexible ticket.

In theory, a public rate Advance can be had for as little as £31.20 from London to Edinburgh. When that fare is available, a Priv, which would be taken from the "BUS" tier, would offer slightly less than a third off. In fact, a public railcard holder would pay slightly less for the exact same terms and conditions!

By simply saying you can buy Priv rate Advances, LNER would be able to disguise this as being a positive change, when it is demonstrably the exact opposite. Many would be fooled by such misleading communication.

 

[A S Leib]

Will availability of advance tickets go down, as 70min Flex passengers might be heavily concentrated within a known time period? (E.g. if LNER's selling tonnes of 70min Flex fares for an 07:00 departure, I'd expect advance availability for the 06:00, 06:30... 08:00 to go down, unless the hope is that 70min Flex ticket holders would previously have bought anytime tickets instead.)

 

[mad_rich]

Having emailed David Horne when this was announced, I've just had a reply from a Senior Customer Relations Manager.

It acknowledges my thoughts, but doesn't address any of them. He's also promised me a £25 voucher (which I didn't really want, and which hasn't arrived anyway!) and offered me a telephone call.

I don't see any benefit to taking up any of his or my time with a call, since the strategy seems to be to placate and 'pass on to the relevant team'.