LNER unreliability caused by staff shortages

[Andyh82]

G

How are Lumo and Grand Central doing? I’d certainly consider either over LNER at the minute.

Grand Central are cancelling a couple of services every day (which is a high percentage considering the number they operate), and often there are convoluted alternative arrangements suggested, either involving very specific LNER services with replacement buses feeding into them, or telling customers to wait for the next (or catch the earlier) grand central service which can be hours later

 

[Watershed]

Do you expect ticket acceptance from British Airways if Ryanair cancels a flight?

I wouldn't expect BA to voluntarily accept my Ryanair ticket, no. But I would expect Ryanair to comply with their legal obligation to re-route me on the next available flight, which might mean them having to buy a £500 Y fare on BA.

There's also no proper comparison to be made with the airline industry, since all train operators (other than Heathrow Express) fall under a common set of conditions of travel - and if you would otherwise end up stranded you are entitled to assistance from any train company that is in a position to help.

This issue is essentially arising because the likes of Grand Central and Lumo are refusing to do what they are obliged to do - namely get out the (putative or literal) company card and buy passengers new Any Permitted tickets when LNER declines to offer ticket acceptance. It's far cheaper to fob passengers off!

 

[Haywain]

This issue is essentially arising because the likes of Grand Central and Lumo are refusing to do what they are obliged to do - namely get out the (putative or literal) company card and buy passengers new Any Permitted tickets when LNER declines to offer ticket acceptance. It's far cheaper to fob passengers off!

Quite. And if they don't want to or can't deal with LNER there are several other ways of getting their passengers to their destinations rather than just saying wait for 7 hours.

 

[IanXC]

Realtimetrains is a useful resource, but extra stops usually won’t appear there when added at the last minute. Platform ‘DF’ will have shown as when the additional stop was entered into the service data they won’t have amended the line to reflect the additional stop - the signaller will have known about the extra stop and manually routed the train into a platform.

To be honest I’m surprised National Rail Enquiries was showing the special stop orders. Usually it’s only journey check that shows them or the TOC’s own communication channels.

If in doubt, ask staff on the train. The guard will know for certain where a train will and won’t stop for passengers.

Real Time Trains is the same as Trust - additional stops don't show in advance, and even when they've happened are usually only detectable by a delay or the service being routed onto another line.

National Rail Enquiries information is Darwin, which is updated by the TOC's own communications. So if their Journey Check says its calling additionally, then Darwin will know that and so will all the other channels fed by it.

The lack of an actual platform being shown is down to LNER not updating that.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

No staff to get the 1136 Harrogate to London Train to Harrogate this morning. Why do they bother supposedly going beyond Leeds.

 

[dk1]

No staff to get the 1136 Harrogate to London Train to Harrogate this morning. Why do they bother supposedly going beyond Leeds.

In the current industrial climate it might be worth abandoning many beyond core route services. Whether that helps reliability is another matter.

 

[robbeech]

Quite. And if they don't want to or can't deal with LNER there are several other ways of getting their passengers to their destinations rather than just saying wait for 7 hours.

But why bother? Nothing comes of it when they fail, nothing is enforced, they don't receive penalties (other than respective penalties for their trains running late or not running). There is absolutely no incentive to help passengers in any way whatsoever.
I saw on social media today a passenger asking LNER (the retailer) about a GC service on Saturday that has just disappeared. GC quite arrogantly said its because of the industrial action and offered zero advice or help, but also importantly, the retailer, LNER in this case had given the passenger no indication that the ticket they had purchased from them was now completely useless. The operator could and should have offered help, the retailer could and should have PUSHED information to them on the app or by e-mail but didn't. why? because why bother?

 

[43066]

and if you would otherwise end up stranded you are entitled to assistance from any train company that is in a position to help.

It’s clear that those other companies are permitted to decline ticket acceptance, specifically to prevent mass inflows of passengers they consider they cannot cope with.

namely get out the (putative or literal) company card and buy passengers new Any Permitted tickets when LNER declines to offer ticket acceptance.

This sounds somewhat fanciful. In practical terms how would this work in terms of physically buying the relevant tickets?

Even beyond that, if TOC declines ticket acceptance that will be for good reason, and entirely at their own discretion. It would seem like sharp practice, not to mention dishonest in the extreme, for another company to deliberately circumvent the normal ticket acceptance process by purchasing hundreds or thousands of anytime tickets to effectively “dupe” the first TOC into accepting unacceptable levels of overcrowding.

 

[yorkie]

And on the flipside, LNER advised me to suggest a customer take a service 10 hours earlier than they had intended to travel, because no ticket acceptance has been arranged with GC or TPE.

It's just petty and frustrating really, particularly at Christmas, that there's no joined up effort made to enable folks to get home.

LNER and their predecessors have been, and no doubt will always be, petty in this area; I believe they want to see the open access operators go out of business and would rather passengers were lost to other modes, than see these open access operators continue to operate on their patch. LNER will never change their ways. A joined up effort is highly unlikely; who is going to make them? They are not going to do it voluntarily.

But why bother? Nothing comes of it when they fail, nothing is enforced, they don't receive penalties (other than respective penalties for their trains running late or not running). There is absolutely no incentive to help passengers in any way whatsoever.
I saw on social media today a passenger asking LNER (the retailer) about a GC service on Saturday that has just disappeared. GC quite arrogantly said its because of the industrial action and offered zero advice or help, but also importantly, the retailer, LNER in this case had given the passenger no indication that the ticket they had purchased from them was now completely useless. The operator could and should have offered help, the retailer could and should have PUSHED information to them on the app or by e-mail but didn't. why? because why bother?

Neither company will care if the passenger is lost to rail; neither company has rail passengers at heart. Passengers are seen an inconvenience.

It’s clear that those other companies are permitted to decline ticket acceptance, specifically to prevent mass inflows of passengers they consider they cannot cope with.

If they are in a position to assist, they must do so. LNER often claim not to be, when they blatantly are.

 

[43066]

I believe they want to see the open access operators go out of business and would rather passengers were lost to other modes,

But LNER are above 100% pre Covid passenger numbers and, in any case, they’re now being paid a fee with all ticket receipts (and revenue risk) going to the DfT, so why would they care about OA operators going bust?

I can quite well see why TOC would decline ticket acceptance to protect the interests of its own passengers (not to mention staff safety) when it’s cancelling huge numbers of its own services, however.

 

[yorkie]

Do you expect ticket acceptance from British Airways if Ryanair cancels a flight?

Is there a National Air Conditions of Travel?

 

[43066]

If they are in a position to assist, they must do so. LNER often claim not to be, when they blatantly are.

But that’s their decision, surely? Not to say they will always get it right, but are you suggesting TOCs are not free to make this decision?

 

[crablab]

It would seem like sharp practice, not to mention dishonest in the extreme, for another company to deliberately circumvent the normal ticket acceptance process by purchasing hundreds or thousands of anytime tickets to effectively “dupe” the first TOC into accepting unacceptable levels of overcrowding.

They're paying for it, why shouldn't they? It's a free market and, after all, they're giving a big wodge of cash to their direct competitor!

Is it any different to rebooking everyone on a plane or coach in that circumstance?

If LNER objected to it they could make their services reservation only, but since that doesn't really have any meaning in NRCoT (as I understand it) I don't see what could be done to enforce it. If there are safety issues then they could lobby ORR and RDG to make the necessary changes to the NRCoT.

A joined up effort is highly unlikely; who is going to make them? They are not going to do it voluntarily.

And herein lies the issue. At the moment passenger rerouting depends (despite the obligation to assist) on the goodwill of other TOCs who, rightly or wrongly, have their own interests (commercial and otherwise) to consider. If you didn't have to worry about TOC or routeing restrictions passengers could self re-route via whatever "reasonable route" they felt they could justify, depending on capacity.
Only when capacity really was exceeded would it be necessary for staff to make arrangements to reroute via other modes.

 

[Watershed]

It’s clear that those other companies are permitted to decline ticket acceptance, specifically to prevent mass inflows of passengers they consider they cannot cope with.

In som circumstances, yes, they will be unable to accommodate all passengers the next train. But the majority of the time, they will be perfectly able to accommodate some passengers on the next available train - and indeed they should and must so. Any 'excess' passengers can then be put on later services.

If push comes to shove, it will almost always be possible for the likes of LNER be able to arrange alternative transport or accommodation. The fact that these things might be expensive or inconvenient is not a basis for refusing assistance under condition 28.2.

This sounds somewhat fanciful. In practical terms how would this work in terms of physically buying the relevant tickets?

It's how GC et al used to operate in the past. They would have staff with ticket issuing equipment issuing tickets, or go round the TVMs and use the company card to pay for people's purchases. Whilst those are all perfectly feasible options, at least at the major stations, the bare minimum they should be doing is guaranteeing people that they will reimburse additional tickets that people have to buy.

Even beyond that, if TOC declines ticket acceptance that will be for good reason, and entirely at their own discretion. It would seem like sharp practice, not to mention dishonest in the extreme, for another company to deliberately circumvent the normal ticket acceptance process by purchasing hundreds or thousands of anytime tickets to effectively “dupe” the first TOC into accepting unacceptable levels of overcrowding.

It seems no more a sharp practice than the refusal of ticket acceptance in the first place. If LNER cancel one of their own trains, they can't limit passengers to a train in 3 hours time or whatever - people are entitled to get on the next train, regardless of how busy it is. Refusing ticket acceptance just because the train that's been cancelled was run by another operator is symbolic of the shambolic and disintegrated way the industry runs.

But that’s their decision, surely? Not to say they will always get it right, but are you suggesting TOCs are not free to make this decision?

Whilst in practice their decision on the ground is the one that will determine whether or not people are going to travel for free, it is always going to be amenable to legal challenge. If someone is (wrongly) told "we can't help you - our trains are too busy" and yet proceeds to buy a new ticket and is able to travel on LNER's train, res ipsa loquitor...