LNER unreliability caused by staff shortages

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It is normally a mk4 but was an Azuma last night, delayed on 1N36 due to a brake fault, not sure if connected to this mornings fault.


2300 reinstated and running to York.

Much as I like them, having a fleet of IC225s with limited staff knowledge is more recently causing frequent issues and cancellations. I do think that LNER should either use them on all routes that 801s are used on and train all depots (I'm aware of the expense and resources this would require so not necessarily the option they should be taking), drop the 225s and order more Azumas or another fleet that can be used by all crews that sign 801s, or drop the 225s with no replacement.

I won't add more on that as I'm not wanting to be speculative, but the lack of ability to use 225s on certain services or have them finish in certain areas of the network due to Hitachi depots refusing them is adding salt to the staff shortages wound.

 

[TUC]

The comments above seem to fall into the 'railways are different to every other industry' box, which to be honest is very hard to believe and is the kind of argument that give railway working practices a bad name with the public.

 

[dk1]

The comments above seem to fall into the 'railways are different to every other industry' box, which to be honest is very hard to believe and is the kind of argument that give railway working practices a bad name with the public.

That’s because they are regardless of whether the public think it’s good or bad. Hard fought for agreements for quality of work life balance are not going to be given away. Working to rule just shows how much the industry runs on overtime & goodwill.

 

[43066]

I The comments above seem to fall into the 'railways are different to every other industry' box, which to be honest is very hard to believe and is the kind of argument that give railway working practices a bad name with the public.

As already pointed out other sectors such as aviation are no different in having arrangements that might appear inflexible, for perfectly good reasons. Whether you understand or agree with that makes no difference.

Why are you dodging the question (I’ve now asked you twice) regarding what you meant in post #455?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What specifically did you mean here, please? Are you suggesting TOCs should make inflammatory announcements that would risk incitement of abuse of traincrew or other staff members?

I must say I have been shocked at how much detail has been included in some announcements before.
A South Western Railway guard made the following announcement when I travelled back in summer; I think I mentioned on this forum about it when it happened.

"Industrial action will take place tomorrow, and your journeys must be finished by 6pm. I know this may be inconvenient but imagine you’ve worked for the same poultry some of XXX grand for three years only to be offered a poxy 3% pay rise. The cost of living is rising, so is the cost of food - we cannot afford to put food on the table - we are not seen as worthy of a decent rise… so please save your complaints as believe me, our complaints are also justified. Next station is West Byfleet."
I actually reported this on Twitter. The whole carriage (completely full 444 from Alton in morning peak) fell silent listening.

"Staff shortages" or "Industrial action" will suffice, in this case of LNER it would be the former.

Having said that, LNER management appear rather prescriptive re. announcements anyway. Their twitter team seemed to condemn "Ladies and Gentlemen" as unacceptable language "our train managers should not be using language like this" (!!!) and therefore I highly doubt they'd look favourably on announcements made to explain in detail the ins and outs of their rostering woes.

-

I wonder if CrossCountry have suffered from even heavier loadings than usual between Leeds and Edinburgh due to the unreliability of both TransPennine Express and LNER. It doesn't help that once again, they are now the only provider of direct services between Leeds and Scotland, and that LNER have nine carriages worth of customers for each London Edinburgh train they cancel.

 

[Northern_guard]

This morning for Leeds-Kings Cross, the 0740 hd already been cancelled due to staff shortages. The following train, 0815, is starting short at Doncaster 'due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.'.

Given that LNER already know that the 0740 was cancelled, it is frustrating that they did not rearrange train sets and crew to at least ensure that the next service from Leeds was not effectively cancelled as well.

I'm not sure what else could've been done for the 0815. It failed at Neville Hill and a set was brought off the IEP to start it at Doncaster. Better to run it for 75% of the journey than not at all. It's just unlucky it was the second cancellation in a row.

 

[philthetube]

If staff were being asked to work outside of their shift times for that day, that is clearly up to them whether to agree. However, if it is a change that would still keep the staff member within their shift hours and get them back to the same base at the end of their shift then that is surely just a kind of change that I or many others in multiple industries would consider to be one that an employer is perfectly entitled to make.

There is a little bit more to it than that, imagine coming in for an a 8 hour shift, which drives for 5 hours then has a break then does the other 2, obviously you have a proper meal immediately before starting work, you arrive and the shift is swapped to work 2 hours before break, you are not ready for food at that stage but if you do not eat you go a long period without food.

 

[NI 271]

If staff were being asked to work outside of their shift times for that day, that is clearly up to them whether to agree. However, if it is a change that would still keep the staff member within their shift hours and get them back to the same base at the end of their shift then that is surely just a kind of change that I or many others in multiple industries would consider to be one that an employer is perfectly entitled to make.

You make it sound like that isn't one they would readily agree to. My experience (from within the industry, albeit not within an entity in dispute) is that they would. Last night, I went to a depot, of a company who ARE currently in dispute, and asked for some very out of course assistance. What I received was what I would describe as 'over and above', in that what I asked for, I got, but with someone who went out of their way to make things far easier for me than was actually necessary for me to do what I needed to. They didn't need to, but they still did. Railway staff do that. To make them say no, there has to be a reason.

I get that people outwith the industry wouldn't understand this. I get that even some within it wouldn't. But I'd impress to those that unless there is very specific reason not to, what happened last night is "what we do" for our colleagues. It would never be known outside very small windows. But it happens. As it should. And to have those people not be that helpful on a daily basis is an indicator that something is going very wrong.

I don't care what your perspective is. If you're trying to portray those people as some sort of militants, you're simply misinformed. They aren't. We all have our breaking points (mine is a lot sooner reached than most), if good guys like that are saying "no" to somebody, that somebody has caused the issue. I don't care if you disagree, you don't suddenly become any less mistaken just because you're ignorant of the reality. The issues you see today are not the making of the staff, whether they are on strike or not.

EDIT - the only reason I was there is that my own job was canned, and with two hours' notice, I drove 105 miles to prevent another job going the same way, then 105 miles home afterwards. It's what we do. But you go off and kid yourself how militant we are.

 

[Peterthegreat]

You make it sound like that isn't one they would readily agree to. My experience (from within the industry, albeit not within an entity in dispute) is that they would. Last night, I went to a depot, of a company who ARE currently in dispute, and asked for some very out of course assistance. What I received was what I would describe as 'over and above', in that what I asked for, I got, but with someone who went out of their way to make things far easier for me than was actually necessary for me to do what I needed to. They didn't need to, but they still did. Railway staff do that. To make them say no, there has to be a reason.

I get that people outwith the industry wouldn't understand this. I get that even some within it wouldn't. But I'd impress to those that unless there is very specific reason not to, what happened last night is "what we do" for our colleagues. It would never be known outside very small windows. But it happens. As it should. And to have those people not be that helpful on a daily basis is an indicator that something is going very wrong.

I don't care what your perspective is. If you're trying to portray those people as some sort of militants, you're simply misinformed. They aren't. We all have our breaking points (mine is a lot sooner reached than most), if good guys like that are saying "no" to somebody, that somebody has caused the issue. I don't care if you disagree, you don't suddenly become any less mistaken just because you're ignorant of the reality. The issues you see today are not the making of the staff, whether they are on strike or not.

Well said. That is my experience too.

 

[NI 271]

Well said. That is my experience too.

I've worked on the railway for 9 years. I did 24 years in the "real world" beforehand. There's simply no comparison. The "real world" simply doesn't see joined-up thinking or co-operation like the railway does, and it's mind-boggling to see from first-hand just how misinformed so many outsiders are (as I was before I joined the dark side). There's a reason so few people leave the railway by their own choice, and anyone who thinks it's because the money is half-decent is so far detached from fact that their opinions simply aren't relevant. It's telling that none of these people ask why those who AREN'T on good money (and there are at least as many of them working on the railway as those who are) still want to work on the railway.

But then there aren't many industries where people who are desperate to get in and get knocked back, or are unwittingly incapable of joining in the first place, and therefore become bitter and 'anti' as the railway seems to find, nor where for some people it's a hobby and who think it should therefore be run for their benefit alone and can't work out why it isn't. Those people need to cry more. People who piss and moan about how the railway should "modernise" (it does), "get with the times" (again, it does), or be "more flexible" (it is). I know this, I see it every day. It can't be all things to all men, no industry can, or will ever.

But as an industry, or more particularly, as staff, the railway will stand up for itself. THAT is the real problem to most, they know they haven't got the stones to do the same, and the envy that there's a couple of a hundred thousand people who have the minerals and self-respect that they don't, grates. Their issue isn't actually with railway staff, when you scratch beneath the surface, it's within themselves, but they'll never accept that fact because these days, nobody is at fault for their crap lives, it's always someone else's fault. And if I was still outwith the industry, I'd probably fall for the lies that are shoved up our noses by the (compliant, owned as it mainly is by billionaires) media every day myself.

I hope this gets right up the noses of those who will ask themselves if I'm referring to them personally. For purposes of clarity, yes, yes I am. I've no idea who you are, and care even less, but if you feel seen here, yes, damn right I mean you personally.

 

[43066]

I don't care what your perspective is. If you're trying to portray those people as some sort of militants, you're simply misinformed.

That particular poster upthread appeared to say he wants TOCs to make announcements that would incite passengers to abuse front line railway staff (and then ignored requests to clarify his meaning), which gives you some idea of his “perspective”.

I've worked on the railway for 9 years. I did 24 years in the "real world" beforehand. There's simply no comparison. The "real world" simply doesn't see joined-up thinking or co-operation like the railway does, and it's mind-boggling to see from first-hand just how misinformed so many outsiders are (as I was before I joined the dark side). There's a reason so few people leave the railway by their own choice, and anyone who thinks it's because the money is half-decent is so far detached from fact that their opinions simply aren't relevant. It's telling that none of these people ask why those who AREN'T on good money (and there are at least as many of them working on the railway as those who are) still want to work on the railway.

But then there aren't many industries where people who are desperate to get in and get knocked back, or are unwittingly incapable of joining in the first place, and therefore become bitter and 'anti' as the railway seems to find, nor where for some people it's a hobby and who think it should therefore be run for their benefit alone and can't work out why it isn't. Those people need to cry more. People who piss and moan about how the railway should "modernise" (it does), "get with the times" (again, it does), or be "more flexible" (it is). I know this, I see it every day. It can't be all things to all men, no industry can, or will ever.

But as an industry, or more particularly, as staff, the railway will stand up for itself. THAT is the real problem to most, they know they haven't got the stones to do the same, and the envy that there's a couple of a hundred thousand people who have the minerals and self-respect that they don't, grates. Their issue isn't actually with railway staff, when you scratch beneath the surface, it's within themselves, but they'll never accept that fact because these days, nobody is at fault for their crap lives, it's always someone else's fault. And if I was still outwith the industry, I'd probably fall for the lies that are shoved up our noses by the (compliant, owned as it mainly is by billionaires) media every day myself.

I hope this gets right up the noses of those who will ask themselves if I'm referring to them personally. For purposes of clarity, yes, yes I am. I've no idea who you are, and care even less, but if you feel seen here, yes, damn right I mean you personally.

Excellent post. Every word true!

 

[dk1]

I've worked on the railway for 9 years. I did 24 years in the "real world" beforehand. There's simply no comparison. The "real world" simply doesn't see joined-up thinking or co-operation like the railway does, and it's mind-boggling to see from first-hand just how misinformed so many outsiders are (as I was before I joined the dark side). There's a reason so few people leave the railway by their own choice, and anyone who thinks it's because the money is half-decent is so far detached from fact that their opinions simply aren't relevant. It's telling that none of these people ask why those who AREN'T on good money (and there are at least as many of them working on the railway as those who are) still want to work on the railway.

But then there aren't many industries where people who are desperate to get in and get knocked back, or are unwittingly incapable of joining in the first place, and therefore become bitter and 'anti' as the railway seems to find, nor where for some people it's a hobby and who think it should therefore be run for their benefit alone and can't work out why it isn't. Those people need to cry more. People who piss and moan about how the railway should "modernise" (it does), "get with the times" (again, it does), or be "more flexible" (it is). I know this, I see it every day. It can't be all things to all men, no industry can, or will ever.

But as an industry, or more particularly, as staff, the railway will stand up for itself. THAT is the real problem to most, they know they haven't got the stones to do the same, and the envy that there's a couple of a hundred thousand people who have the minerals and self-respect that they don't, grates. Their issue isn't actually with railway staff, when you scratch beneath the surface, it's within themselves, but they'll never accept that fact because these days, nobody is at fault for their crap lives, it's always someone else's fault. And if I was still outwith the industry, I'd probably fall for the lies that are shoved up our noses by the (compliant, owned as it mainly is by billionaires) media every day myself.

I hope this gets right up the noses of those who will ask themselves if I'm referring to them personally. For purposes of clarity, yes, yes I am. I've no idea who you are, and care even less, but if you feel seen here, yes, damn right I mean you personally.

Absolutely spot on. One of the best posts I’ve seen on here in the last six months.

 

[Val3ntine]

I've worked on the railway for 9 years. I did 24 years in the "real world" beforehand. There's simply no comparison. The "real world" simply doesn't see joined-up thinking or co-operation like the railway does, and it's mind-boggling to see from first-hand just how misinformed so many outsiders are (as I was before I joined the dark side). There's a reason so few people leave the railway by their own choice, and anyone who thinks it's because the money is half-decent is so far detached from fact that their opinions simply aren't relevant. It's telling that none of these people ask why those who AREN'T on good money (and there are at least as many of them working on the railway as those who are) still want to work on the railway.

But then there aren't many industries where people who are desperate to get in and get knocked back, or are unwittingly incapable of joining in the first place, and therefore become bitter and 'anti' as the railway seems to find, nor where for some people it's a hobby and who think it should therefore be run for their benefit alone and can't work out why it isn't. Those people need to cry more. People who piss and moan about how the railway should "modernise" (it does), "get with the times" (again, it does), or be "more flexible" (it is). I know this, I see it every day. It can't be all things to all men, no industry can, or will ever.

But as an industry, or more particularly, as staff, the railway will stand up for itself. THAT is the real problem to most, they know they haven't got the stones to do the same, and the envy that there's a couple of a hundred thousand people who have the minerals and self-respect that they don't, grates. Their issue isn't actually with railway staff, when you scratch beneath the surface, it's within themselves, but they'll never accept that fact because these days, nobody is at fault for their crap lives, it's always someone else's fault. And if I was still outwith the industry, I'd probably fall for the lies that are shoved up our noses by the (compliant, owned as it mainly is by billionaires) media every day myself.

I hope this gets right up the noses of those who will ask themselves if I'm referring to them personally. For purposes of clarity, yes, yes I am. I've no idea who you are, and care even less, but if you feel seen here, yes, damn right I mean you personally.

I must also say, well done for such a well construed post!

 

[Bald Rick]

I've worked on the railway for 9 years. I did 24 years in the "real world" beforehand. There's simply no comparison. The "real world" simply doesn't see joined-up thinking or co-operation like the railway does, and it's mind-boggling to see from first-hand just how misinformed so many outsiders are (as I was before I joined the dark side). There's a reason so few people leave the railway by their own choice, and anyone who thinks it's because the money is half-decent is so far detached from fact that their opinions simply aren't relevant. It's telling that none of these people ask why those who AREN'T on good money (and there are at least as many of them working on the railway as those who are) still want to work on the railway.

But then there aren't many industries where people who are desperate to get in and get knocked back, or are unwittingly incapable of joining in the first place, and therefore become bitter and 'anti' as the railway seems to find, nor where for some people it's a hobby and who think it should therefore be run for their benefit alone and can't work out why it isn't. Those people need to cry more. People who piss and moan about how the railway should "modernise" (it does), "get with the times" (again, it does), or be "more flexible" (it is). I know this, I see it every day. It can't be all things to all men, no industry can, or will ever.

But as an industry, or more particularly, as staff, the railway will stand up for itself. THAT is the real problem to most, they know they haven't got the stones to do the same, and the envy that there's a couple of a hundred thousand people who have the minerals and self-respect that they don't, grates. Their issue isn't actually with railway staff, when you scratch beneath the surface, it's within themselves, but they'll never accept that fact because these days, nobody is at fault for their crap lives, it's always someone else's fault. And if I was still outwith the industry, I'd probably fall for the lies that are shoved up our noses by the (compliant, owned as it mainly is by billionaires) media every day myself.

I hope this gets right up the noses of those who will ask themselves if I'm referring to them personally. For purposes of clarity, yes, yes I am. I've no idea who you are, and care even less, but if you feel seen here, yes, damn right I mean you personally.

Post of the year, well said sir.

 

[DanNCL]

RMT industrial action doesn’t begin until 1800 on Christmas Eve. So why on earth is the last Edinburgh - Newcastle service that day at 0800, the last Leeds - Kings Cross at 1045 and the last Kings Cross - Leeds at 1203? I understand there’s engineering work at York too, but that shouldn’t prevent LNER from running anything to Leeds or between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Is the industrial relations situation really that bad that they can’t resource anything after 1203?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

RMT industrial action doesn’t begin until 1800 on Christmas Eve. So why on earth is the last Edinburgh - Newcastle service that day at 0800, the last Leeds - Kings Cross at 1045 and the last Kings Cross - Leeds at 1203? I understand there’s engineering work at York too, but that shouldn’t prevent LNER from running anything to Leeds or between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Is the industrial relations situation really that bad that they can’t resource anything after 1203?

I understand as vast amounts of the network will be closed from 18.00 sharp NR is asking the network to start to be wound down by around 15.00 to save getting trains stranded over Christmas in the event of delays etc.

On previous strike posts there has been comments about trains running up to the wire and issues caused by late running all being to ambitious, that’s not really something the industry wishes to face on Xmas Eve so is a risk adverse strategy adopted.

 

[CommuterPigeon]

RMT industrial action doesn’t begin until 1800 on Christmas Eve. So why on earth is the last Edinburgh - Newcastle service that day at 0800, the last Leeds - Kings Cross at 1045 and the last Kings Cross - Leeds at 1203? I understand there’s engineering work at York too, but that shouldn’t prevent LNER from running anything to Leeds or between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Is the industrial relations situation really that bad that they can’t resource anything after 1203?

ECML is being shut at around 3pm on Christmas Eve with York Station being closed to trains at 15:15 to allow Network Rail to start the renewal work early.

 

[DanNCL]

I understand as vast amounts of the network will be closed from 18.00 sharp NR is asking the network to start to be wound down by around 15.00 to save getting trains stranded over Christmas in the event of delays etc.

On previous strike posts there has been comments about trains running up to the wire and issues caused by late running all being to ambitious, that’s not really something the industry wishes to face on Xmas Eve so is a risk adverse strategy adopted.

ECML is being shut at around 3pm on Christmas Eve with York Station being closed to trains at 15:15 to allow Network Rail to start the renewal work early.

1500 is a reasonable time, slightly earlier would be reasonable for York given the block from 1515. 0930 which is when the last arrival from Edinburgh at Newcastle will be isn’t reasonable.

LNER’s last train will be out of service by 1430. The vast majority will be finished much earlier. Feels like they’ve been over cautious here.

 

[Twingo37175]

1500 is a reasonable time, slightly earlier would be reasonable for York given the block from 1515. 0930 which is when the last arrival from Edinburgh at Newcastle will be isn’t reasonable.

LNER’s last train will be out of service by 1430. The vast majority will be finished much earlier. Feels like they’ve been over cautious here.

If you click on the timetable pdf's the last train between Edinburgh and Newcastle is 13:00, with a number of services post the 08:00 that you reference. I assume a certain element of timings on 24/12 is also around depot capacity (given the amount also terminating at Doncaster).

 

[DanNCL]

If you click on the timetable pdf's the last train between Edinburgh and Newcastle is 13:00, with a number of services post the 08:00 that you reference. I assume a certain element of timings on 24/12 is also around depot capacity (given the amount also terminating at Doncaster).

LNER were announcing on social media this morning that the last train was the 0800. I assume this is in actual fact the last through train to Kings Cross, but the posts on social media were definitely saying it was the last between Edinburgh and Newcastle.

 

[800001]

LNER were announcing on social media this morning that the last train was the 0800. I assume this is in actual fact the last through train to Kings Cross, but the posts on social media were definitely saying it was the last between Edinburgh and Newcastle.

yes the last through train to London.
The last train south from Edinburgh is at 1300 to Newcastle.

 

[DanNCL]

yes the last through train to London.
The last train south from Edinburgh is at 1300 to Newcastle.

Just seen that the original tweet incorrectly claiming it was the last train to Newcastle has been deleted and replaced with an updated one.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

LNER’s last train will be out of service by 1430. The vast majority will be finished much earlier. Feels like they’ve been over cautious here.

Just had it clarified the reason for the very early finish on Christmas Eve is the strikes start at 18.00 however to complete the Engineering Works planned over Xmas all the possessions need to be taken and all the engineers trains in situ ahead of that time. That is why Network Rail is closing the Network to passenger trains by 15.00 to give them time to deal with all these.

Hope that helps answer your query.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Just had it clarified the reason for the very early finish on Christmas Eve is the strikes start at 18.00 however to complete the Engineering Works planned over Xmas all the possessions need to be taken and all the engineers trains in situ ahead of that time. That is why Network Rail is closing the Network to passenger trains by 15.00 to give them time to deal with all these.

Hope that helps answer your query.

This in a nutshell. Possessions, worksites and isolations have to be taken with on track machines and engineering trains in position before the strike starts.

Everything off the network by 1500.

Before Unite agreed to their offer, there were even discussions about curtailing services on the 23rd in order to ensure that the major work went ahead.

 

[800001]

Mass cancellations this evening from Kings Cross for services bound for Leeds:-

17:33 Kings Cross to Harrogate - Cancelled

17:48 Kings Cross to Leeds - Cancelled

18:03 Kings Cross to Skipton - Cancelled

18:33 Kings Cross to Bradford Forster Square - terminating at Leeds

19:03 Kings Cross to Leeds - Cancelled

20:03 Kings Cross to Leeds - Cancelled

21:33 Kings Cross to Leeds - Cancelled

23:33 Kings Cross to Leeds - Cancelled

Seems some could be no Train Manager, as the Skipton set is running ecs north.

 

[DanNCL]

Of five consecutive London - Leeds services this evening, only one of them is actually running. And we’re apparently not heading in the direction of TPE and Avanti?!

This **** show needs sorting out. Appreciate there’s little/nothing anyone at LNER can actually do about it, indeed I feel sorry for those who have to take the brunt of this from the public, but this really can’t go on any longer. If it does go on it will cost LNER the extra custom they’ve had since covid, possibly for good.

We’re in the situation now where the only TOC in the North East that can be considered anything remotely resembling reliable is XC.

 

[Haywain]

This **** show needs sorting out. Appreciate there’s little/nothing anyone at LNER can actually do about it, indeed I feel sorry for those who have to take the brunt of this from the public, but this really can’t go on any longer. If it does go on it will cost LNER the extra custom they’ve had since covid, possibly for good.

It's probably a result of the RMT overtime and rest day work ban over the Christmas period, possibly coupled with ASLEF's similar ban.

 

[800001]

It's probably a result of the RMT overtime and rest day work ban over the Christmas period, possibly coupled with ASLEF's similar ban.

Thought RMT overtime ban starts on 27th?

 

[DanNCL]

It's probably a result of the RMT overtime and rest day work ban over the Christmas period, possibly coupled with ASLEF's similar ban.

Thought RMT overtime ban starts on 27th?

It does, but isn’t really a surprise people are making themselves unavailable for overtime before then.

Raises the question though, if they can’t even run this timetable reliably with the crew they’ve got, how the hell did LNER think they were going to manage the previously proposed May 2022 timetable…

 

[800001]

It does, but isn’t really a surprise people are making themselves unavailable for overtime before then.

Raises the question though, if they can’t even run this timetable reliably with the crew they’ve got, how the hell did LNER think they were going to manage the previously proposed May 2022 timetable…

The goodwill between employee and employer was there then, and suppose they imagined that would carry on.