LNER unreliability caused by staff shortages

[Dave91131]

Yes, they had avoided most of the problems of some of the other TOCs until recent weeks.


Of their overall timetable, the changes are a pretty small percentage at the moment: this is not yet TPE/Avanti. I mean, irritating if it's your train but it is 9 cancellations and 7 short terminations today, for example. I guess we watch to see if it gets worse.

It's not Avanti or TPE territory *yet*, but even if it doesn't get that far, the regularity with which the ECML infrastructure seems to collapse will see the overall perspective of the service on offer from Joe Public sink lower and lower.

The other thing that won't help that perspective is that I'd think a good majority of passengers use the specific Anglo-Scottish LNER trains that they do for a reason. It isn't as simple as "oh bollocks, I'll just get the next one" as it may be to more of a degree with, say, Thameslink or Northern.

Those passengers affected, which will be thousands per day, are more likely to say "useless LNER couldn't be bothered to run the train I've paid £100+ for, I didn't get any seat or the seat I'd booked for a 4+ hour journey, I won't bother with them again".

 

[greyman42]

1N33 2000 Kings Cross - Sunderland
1N34 2100 Kings Cross - Newcastle

So nothing between 1930 and 2200 on a weekday night!

 

[ComUtoR]

If i could figure out why i would not be asking the question, so perhaps you could enlighten me?

If you didn't know why, then maybe don't sling the mud. But there are reasons why some are less able to help specifc passengers. It's not just a case of people not doing their job, not giving the proverbial, not suited to a specific job, not part of their contract, or some form of incompetence.

Because 99% of the passengers you encounter are only using your TOC!

Most of the passengers I interact with are very much based on my patch only. I've been asked, on numerous occasions, how do I get to X. Which can be any random place in the country. There is a belief or an expectation that because you work on the railway, you know every single station, route, and ticket available across the entire network.

 

[gner43008]

I experienced this unhelp attitude at Newcastle recently back in june when travelling from NCL to KGX via LDS.
Very dissapointed that our fellow railway men/women were unwilling to provide basic customer service, just because I was travelling on a TOC that wasn't LNER.

I don't expect special treatment being a railway employee, but its about helping everybody at the end of the day, Yes all TOCs have major problems currently but lets try and get the basics right.
Newcastle is a great station with some wounderful staff, but my perception has changed slighty on this.

What happened to the Railway family?

 

[EZJ]

What happened to the Railway family?

Sadly in my experience certain TOC's platform/Station staff appear to have acquired a very strange superiority complex whereby anyone from another TOC or their passengers are deemed to be not worthy of any help. The ones in the awful green uniform at Manchester Piccadilly are a noteworthy example of this.

 

[gner43008]

Sadly in my experience certain TOC's platform/Station staff appear to have acquired a very strange superiority complex whereby anyone from another TOC or their passengers are deemed to be not worthy of any help. The ones in the awful green uniform at Manchester Piccadilly are a noteworthy example of this.

Such a massive shame considering how many issues the industry is facing, along with an unceratin future.

 

[XAM2175]

Most of the passengers I interact with are very much based on my patch only. I've been asked, on numerous occasions, how do I get to X. Which can be any random place in the country. There is a belief or an expectation that because you work on the railway, you know every single station, route, and ticket available across the entire network.

I don't think anybody in the thread so far has expressed an opinion that staff should be expected to know those things off the top of their head.

What has been expressed - and very reasonably, in my opinion - is that staff representing the TOC operating a station should be there for all passengers using the station, rather than their own TOC's passengers only.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

LNER drivers have been balloted and overwhelming backed strike action. This means they are in dispute with the company, therefore no overtime or rest day working. Sadly another example of a TOC who doesn't employ enough staff to cover the train plan and relies on goodwill from it's staff but then treats them with contempt and then are surprised when that goodwill is removed.

Indeed what else does anyone expect when you had Shapps totally agitating the situation for months. The new SoS needs to urgently build bridges with Lynch and Whelan as this isn't going to end up benefitting either side in the long run.

 

[greyman42]

If you didn't know why, then maybe don't sling the mud. But there are reasons why some are less able to help specifc passengers. It's not just a case of people not doing their job, not giving the proverbial, not suited to a specific job, not part of their contract, or some form of incompetence.

So what are the reasons why some staff are unwilling to help customers of other TOC's?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So what are the reasons why some staff are unwilling to help customers of other TOC's?

probably because they don't know whats going on and as usual they bear the brunt of passengers frustrations

 

[HullRailMan]

Indeed what else does anyone expect when you had Shapps totally agitating the situation for months. The new SoS needs to urgently build bridges with Lynch and Whelan as this isn't going to end up benefitting either side in the long run.

Why - a reduced service which can be delivered on current staffing and doesn’t require overtime suits the government as it’s cheaper in the long run. I can’t see the government wanting to “build bridges” with people who are out to get them.

 

[800001]

Not all are done prior to 10pm. Only 2 of Tuesdays cancellations were announced prior to 10pm. Not even the 07:55 from Inverness despite the set never making it to Inverness that evening and they were still allowing advances to be bought too!

Same on Sunday evening, wasn't showing as cancelled on national rail enquiries/journey planner for 07:08 to Aberdeen, but realtime trains was showing terminating short at Edinburgh at 10pk night before, so depends what counts as published timetable as I don't think RTT counts as a public source

The cancellations/amendments are sent to dft prior to 10pm, this removes them from the performance figures for the relevant day, ie fudges the figure’s.

 

[14xxDave]

I experienced this unhelp attitude at

What happened to the Railway family?

It died when the railway was split up into fragments. The Idea was to make sure there wasn't a large bulk of workers that could hold the country to "ransom" ie. ask for worker's rights.

 

[exbrel]

If you didn't know why, then maybe don't sling the mud. But there are reasons why some are less able to help specifc passengers. It's not just a case of people not doing their job, not giving the proverbial, not suited to a specific job, not part of their contract, or some form of incompetence.



Most of the passengers I interact with are very much based on my patch only. I've been asked, on numerous occasions, how do I get to X. Which can be any random place in the country. There is a belief or an expectation that because you work on the railway, you know every single station, route, and ticket available across the entire network.

most travellers don't know the rail system, or tickets, or even the do's and don'ts of the railway, but the sight of a railway uniform gives them a focal point to inquire of, at the least the staff should try to help, or give guidance, or just look interested. Or is that out dated nowadays?. Treat others as you would like to be treated...

 

[ComUtoR]

probably because they don't know whats going on

This can be a huge factor to what help, can or cannot be provided. Take any mixed TOC station in the country and you will still have a division between the staff and information. At our mixed TOC stations I can generally give out information regarding my own TOC, mostly because I either have access to the information or may already have first hand knowledge. What I don't know, irrespective of the expectation, is what is happening at another TOC located on the other side of the station. I don't have access to their internal messaging and I don't get passed it because I'm not involved. The railway can be quite insular in that respect. I may not even have access to their control point or resource contact numbers, again, it's information not generally shared outside of the TOC. They probably aren't even on the same radio channels.

In most cases, if I'm dealing with any requests for stuff about another TOC, the best I can do is to point them, politely, in the direction of someone who is able to best help them.

Even with destinations. I can tell you a hell of a lot about my TOC network but if I was sitting in a terminal and a passenger requested a random station that I have no idea where is (and it happens a lot), then the best option is to have them seek help from the respective TOC staff.

There is a big difference between staff who won't help and staff who can't.

 

[GordonT]

The other thing that won't help that perspective is that I'd think a good majority of passengers use the specific Anglo-Scottish LNER trains that they do for a reason.

In some cases to circumvent the horrors of Avanti WC and TPE.

 

[Dave91131]

In some cases to circumvent the horrors of Avanti WC and TPE.

The only circumventings of horror available soon will be the A1, the M6 or the sky.

 

[GordonT]

The only circumventings of horror available soon will be the A1, the M6 or the sky.

They're not immune from their own peculiar (in both senses) horrors, though.

 

[43096]

They're not immune from their own peculiar (in both senses) horrors, though.

Last time I checked my car journey wasn't cancelled because there wasn't a driver or guard shortage, or they were on strike, nor had it been randomly removed from the timetable the night before "just because".

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Why - a reduced service which can be delivered on current staffing and doesn’t require overtime suits the government as it’s cheaper in the long run. I can’t see the government wanting to “build bridges” with people who are out to get them.

To be fair Mick Lynch wrote to the new SoS straight away to seek to resolve the issues

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-writes-to-new-transport-secretary-urging-fresh-approach/

There is clearly now the opportunity for a new approach from the Government to facilitate discussions between the RMT and the employers where the train companies and Network Rail are given more flexibility to secure a deal that is in the interests of workers, passengers and the country as a whole.

 

[HullRailMan]

To be fair Mick Lynch wrote to the new SoS straight away to seek to resolve the issues

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-writes-to-new-transport-secretary-urging-fresh-approach/

That’s the RMT basically saying there is an ‘opportunity’ for the government to get the rail companies to agree to what the RMT want - some olive branch! It’s equally possible, of course, for the unions to back the employers plans to end the dispute.

 

[AM9]

That’s the RMT basically saying there is an ‘opportunity’ for the government to get the rail companies to agree to what the RMT want - some olive branch! It’s equally possible, of course, for the unions to back the employers plans to end the dispute.

And between the black and white, there's an opportunity to actually negotiate with the SoS, - something that doesn't seem to have occurred with Shapps so far.

 

[NEDdrv]

Today's cancellations:
1Y14 0600 Berwick - Kings Cross
1A04 0605 Leeds - Kings Cross
1S00 0622 Newcastle - Edinburgh
1E07 0830 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1D07 0903 Kings Cross - Leeds
1E09 0930 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1A28 1145 Leeds - Kings Cross
1W22 1500 Kings Cross - Stirling
1N29 1818 Kings Cross - Newcastle
1D29 1903 Kings Cross - Leeds
1N33 2000 Kings Cross - Sunderland
1N34 2100 Kings Cross - Newcastle

Starting or terminating short:
1W02 0708 Leeds - Aberdeen terminating at Edinburgh
1W16 1200 Kings Cross - Inverness terminating at Edinburgh
1E19 1430 Edinburgh - Kings Cross terminating at Newcastle
1E25 1452 Aberdeen - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1E21 1530 Edinburgh - Kings Cross terminating at Newcastle

Additionally 1E04 0656 Edinburgh - Kings Cross was cancelled last night and reinstated in a VSTP schedule early this morning.


Mostly a mix of Newcastle and Edinburgh crews but a few from Leeds in there too. Not sure if any of the cancelled ones have been Kings X turns.


Absolutely. Some of their staff at Newcastle station, many of whom have worked there for many years, are exceptional.


At least two recent threads in disputes and prosecutions have mention of incidents at Newcastle station with LNER staff. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-cancelled-no-alternative-offered.236177/ and https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hen-a-train-is-cancelled.235583/#post-5794595
Both cases are where other TOCs have cancelled trains and LNER's staff at Newcastle have failed to provide adequate assistance, in both of those cases providing wrong information that they should have known, and in one case leading someone to needlessly pay for a hotel.

I have personally seen them laugh at Lumo passengers being stranded in Newcastle overnight rather than help them. I have heard multiple other stories from family and friends too, and they have no reason to lie.


So entirely down to the DFT and work to rule then.


Indeed, you know things are bad when XC are the most reliable TOC across the Anglo-Scottish border!



I wonder if a Rest Day Working agreement has ended without renewal.

You seem to have a big dislike of XC going back years when you wanted services terminated at York in favour of TPE, just as well that didn’t happen as TPE have been dire for years. XC might not be flavour of the month but at least they do run a service a high percentage of the time.

 

[43066]

At least two recent threads in disputes and prosecutions have mention of incidents at Newcastle station with LNER staff. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-cancelled-no-alternative-offered.236177/ and https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hen-a-train-is-cancelled.235583/#post-5794595
Both cases are where other TOCs have cancelled trains and LNER's staff at Newcastle have failed to provide adequate assistance, in both of those cases providing wrong information that they should have known, and in one case leading someone to needlessly pay for a hotel.

That’s just the usual cacophony of armchair criticism and nit picking. Some of it might be valid, some might not be. In precisely none of those incidents has anyone described being refused assistance due to not being an LNER passenger, as you claimed regularly occurs:

there's still an issue with impartiality at Newcastle station, with LNER staff regularly refusing to help customers of other TOCs.

It’s also telling that in one of the those threads you personally mention having three complaints out against one individual member of staff. That strikes me as highly unusual. Either you’re the unluckiest person in the world, or that’s suggestive of a vendetta…

I’m also still waiting for you to provide evidence of this fabled “duty of impartiality”, specifically with regards to the Newcastle LNER staff you keep attacking.

I have personally seen them laugh at Lumo passengers being stranded in Newcastle overnight rather than help them.

You do realise railway station staff aren’t required to stand erect, staring silently into the near distance like queens guardsmen? Some of them enjoy chatting and God forbid even laughing amongst themselves while they’re at work. Unless you were eavesdropping on their personal conversations, how can you possibly know what staff were laughing at?

You speak as if you spend a great deal of time at Newcastle station. Do you work there yourself? Do you commute through the station, or do you go just to monitor what the staff are up to?

Last time I checked my car journey wasn't cancelled because there wasn't a driver or guard shortage, or they were on strike, nor had it been randomly removed from the timetable the night before "just because".

And of course cars never break down/get stuck in traffic/can’t park anywhere etc. I wish I had a pound for every time I read about how a railway enthusiast on here doesn’t like travelling by train and drives everywhere.

What happened to the Railway family?

Dad has left, mum drinks too much, the kids are acting up because they know they weren’t really wanted in the first place…

 

[LYuen]

That’s the RMT basically saying there is an ‘opportunity’ for the government to get the rail companies to agree to what the RMT want - some olive branch! It’s equally possible, of course, for the unions to back the employers plans to end the dispute.

In my opinion under current emergency arrangement and future GBR, their direct 'employers' (TOCs) have no position to negotiate with unions. It is the DfT who have the final say on the resources. TOCs are the virtual middlemen to take the blame for the mess the government has created.
For sure, Avanti and TPE only have themselves to blame for burning the bridge in worker relationship, but for the current collective movement in the railway industry, there is little TOC can do.

 

[exbrel]

That’s the RMT basically saying there is an ‘opportunity’ for the government to get the rail companies to agree to what the RMT want - some olive branch! It’s equally possible, of course, for the unions to back the employers plans to end the dispute.

a serious question, in all the talks so far held which the rail companies/govt. have not come up with anything the RMT can take back to the members apart from the time the executive ignored the negotiator, has the RMT given on anything?

 

[LYuen]

a serious question, in all the talks so far held which the rail companies/govt. have not come up with anything the RMT can take back to the members apart from the time the executive ignored the negotiator, has the RMT given on anything?

Rail companies can't negotiate. The government did not come up with anything because it was in caretaking. The last successful settlement between a union and operator was Merseyrail, which is owned by Liverpool council.

 

[Walter Whigham]

The inverness train was cancelled today north of Edinburgh in both directions because of severe flooding in the Perth area - apart from early on nothing has moved through the area, a situation likely to remain until the end of the day. Moncrieffe Tunnel now has a water feature down a retaining wall.

Interesting that the new Secretary of State represents Berwick on Tweed, which may/may not affect her attitude to LNER and the other operators.

 

[800001]

The inverness train was cancelled today north of Edinburgh in both directions because of severe flooding in the Perth area - apart from early on nothing has moved through the area, a situation likely to remain until the end of the day. Moncrieffe Tunnel now has a water feature down a retaining wall.

Interesting that the new Secretary of State represents Berwick on Tweed, which may/may not affect her attitude to LNER and the other operators.

She also wrote to support keeping ticket offices when there was the talk of LNER shortening or closing ticket office last year

 

[43096]

And of course cars never break down/get stuck in traffic/can’t park anywhere etc.

Neither do trains have those problems?

I wish I had a pound for every time I read about how a railway enthusiast on here doesn’t like travelling by train and drives everywhere.

I actually like travelling by train and have done so plenty of times this year - just mostly not in this country. It's not like the railway makes it easy in this country currently.