LNER unreliability caused by staff shortages

[Basher]

Due to go to london from darlington on the 26th Sep and return on the 28th. I think I need to look for an alternative mode of transport!

 

[800001]

Due to go to london from darlington on the 26th Sep and return on the 28th. I think I need to look for an alternative mode of transport!

Why would you need to look for alternative transport?

 

[jamesst]

Rail companies can't negotiate. The government did not come up with anything because it was in caretaking. The last successful settlement between a union and operator was Merseyrail, which is owned by Liverpool council.

Not quite, it's run as a concession with control by merseytravel, answerable to all councils in the Liverpool City region.

 

[Bald Rick]

Due to go to london from darlington on the 26th Sep and return on the 28th. I think I need to look for an alternative mode of transport!

why? It will be fine.

 

[43066]

a serious question, in all the talks so far held which the rail companies/govt. have not come up with anything the RMT can take back to the members apart from the time the executive ignored the negotiator, has the RMT given on anything?

Ah, I see you’re once again treating us to the “I’m anti union, but only after I retired, having spent my career building up my railway pension, which the unions fought for.” perspective. It’s always so refreshing and gratifying to see!

You should plan a visit to your old messroom and express your views in there…

Neither do trains have those problems?

Sometimes they do. Nowhere near as often, though. Much as I often wish I could tailgate GTR trains, flash my headlights, blow them into the weeds when they move over, accompanied by the standard I-drive-a-faster-German-car four knuckle wave.

At least I don’t have to pay to fill the train up…

I actually like travelling by train and have done so plenty of times this year - just mostly not in this country. It's not like the railway makes it easy in this country currently.

Quite the admission. So you actually do like trains, just not British ones!

 

[IanXC]

probably because they don't know whats going on and as usual they bear the brunt of passengers frustrations

If they don't know whats going on thats their own fault for not reading the information supplied by the other operators, and if that causes the passengers they deal with to be frustrated with them then thats only right.

 

[DanNCL]

You seem to have a big dislike of XC going back years when you wanted services terminated at York in favour of TPE, just as well that didn’t happen as TPE have been dire for years. XC might not be flavour of the month but at least they do run a service a high percentage of the time.

It’s not so much a dislike of XC. I reflected on where more people want to travel from the North East, and generally there’s more demand (or at least appears to be more demand) for an extra Manchester via Leeds service than there is for Birmingham via Doncaster. Additionally TPE have stock to run the extra TPH without cutting capacity elsewhere, whereas XC would have to split double voyager formations.

That’s just the usual cacophony of armchair criticism and nit picking. Some of it might be valid, some might not be. In precisely none of those incidents has anyone described being refused assistance due to not being an LNER passenger, as you claimed regularly occurs:



It’s also telling that in one of the those threads you personally mention having three complaints out against one individual member of staff. That strikes me as highly unusual. Either you’re the unluckiest person in the world, or that’s suggestive of a vendetta…

I’m also still waiting for you to provide evidence of this fabled “duty of impartiality”, specifically with regards to the Newcastle LNER staff you keep attacking.



You do realise railway station staff aren’t required to stand erect, staring silently into the near distance like queens guardsmen? Some of them enjoy chatting and God forbid even laughing amongst themselves while they’re at work. Unless you were eavesdropping on their personal conversations, how can you possibly know what staff were laughing at?

You speak as if you spend a great deal of time at Newcastle station. Do you work there yourself? Do you commute through the station, or do you go just to monitor what the staff are up to?

Three complaints against one member of staff is generally a good indicator that the member of staff has repeatedly done stuff that warrants a complaint. There are dodgy people in every line of work, the railway is no exception.

Multiple other posters have explained there’s no need for it to be written, the station managing TOC has a duty of care to all passengers at that station, especially those who are vulnerable and late at night. If LNER don’t wish to comply with that then they should hand over management of their stations to someone that will comply. Except I’m sure LNER as a company does wish to comply and it’s simply a few rogue employees that don’t.

On the point of laughing, if people choose to have their personal conversation at a volume so loud that it can clearly be heard by passers by, then it’s their own fault if customers overhear.
Having a laugh isn’t in itself anything wrong and indeed it’s a good thing. But laughing at the customer’s misfortune in a location where the customer can hear is completely unacceptable.

I commute through Newcastle station almost every day, sometimes passing through three or four times in one day as I frequently travel across the North East for work. I also use the station whenever I travel for leisure.
I do not work at Newcastle station, and have never claimed otherwise.

I did mention in an earlier post that some of the staff at Newcastle station are exceptional, I’d go as far as saying some of the best station staff I’ve encountered have been at Newcastle station. Indeed I’m planning to submit a nomination in LNER’s customer choice awards for someone at Newcastle station who is always going above and beyond for customers and has done so for a long time.

So not at all a vendetta against Newcastle station, but I will call out things that are being done wrong.

In reflection I probably should make more mention in my posts of some of the positive things I see on the railway rather than focussing on calling out bad stuff.

Due to go to london from darlington on the 26th Sep and return on the 28th. I think I need to look for an alternative mode of transport!

You’ll be fine to get the train. Individual trains are being cancelled with tickets being valid on both the train before and the train after. We thankfully aren’t seeing on LNER the mass cancellations that the likes of TPE and Avanti are.
The strikes for this month have now been called off.

I haven’t had time to compile a list this morning, but a quick glance at LNER’s website shows an almost unaltered service running for much of the day with no cancellations and only a small number of trains starting/terminating short. A much better picture than a few days ago.

 

[class397tpe]

Today's cancellations:
1Y14 0600 Berwick - Kings Cross
1A04 0605 Leeds - Kings Cross
1S00 0622 Newcastle - Edinburgh
1E07 0830 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1D07 0903 Kings Cross - Leeds
1E09 0930 Edinburgh - Kings Cross
1A28 1145 Leeds - Kings Cross
1W22 1500 Kings Cross - Stirling
1N29 1818 Kings Cross - Newcastle
1D29 1903 Kings Cross - Leeds
1N33 2000 Kings Cross - Sunderland
1N34 2100 Kings Cross - Newcastle

Starting or terminating short:
1W02 0708 Leeds - Aberdeen terminating at Edinburgh
1W16 1200 Kings Cross - Inverness terminating at Edinburgh
1E19 1430 Edinburgh - Kings Cross terminating at Newcastle
1E25 1452 Aberdeen - Kings Cross starting at Edinburgh
1E21 1530 Edinburgh - Kings Cross terminating at Newcastle

Additionally 1E04 0656 Edinburgh - Kings Cross was cancelled last night and reinstated in a VSTP schedule early this morning.


Mostly a mix of Newcastle and Edinburgh crews but a few from Leeds in there too. Not sure if any of the cancelled ones have been Kings X turns.


Absolutely. Some of their staff at Newcastle station, many of whom have worked there for many years, are exceptional.


At least two recent threads in disputes and prosecutions have mention of incidents at Newcastle station with LNER staff. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tpe-cancelled-no-alternative-offered.236177/ and https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hen-a-train-is-cancelled.235583/#post-5794595
Both cases are where other TOCs have cancelled trains and LNER's staff at Newcastle have failed to provide adequate assistance, in both of those cases providing wrong information that they should have known, and in one case leading someone to needlessly pay for a hotel.

I have personally seen them laugh at Lumo passengers being stranded in Newcastle overnight rather than help them. I have heard multiple other stories from family and friends too, and they have no reason to lie.


So entirely down to the DFT and work to rule then.


Indeed, you know things are bad when XC are the most reliable TOC across the Anglo-Scottish border!



I wonder if a Rest Day Working agreement has ended without renewal.

Sorry if I'm being obtuse but I genuinely don't know - what is the rest day working agreement?

And what happens when it is withdrawn? Does it mean that staff can't work rest days at all, or something along the lines of it's up to the individual staff whether to work a rest day or not? And then it can cause shortness of staff due to them choosing to work to rule or just not work the rest days cause of the holidays etc.

Cause I'm a bit confused with TOCs like Avanti, who don't have a rest day working agreement in place, why they don't just say that a lack of a RDW agreement is causing shortness of staff instead of accusing staff of unofficially striking. Them saying that staff still could choose to work suggests staff can work rest days regardless of a RDW agreement being in place - so I'm a bit confused.

 

[Fyldeboy]

It’s not so much a dislike of XC. I reflected on where more people want to travel from the North East, and generally there’s more demand (or at least appears to be more demand) for an extra Manchester via Leeds service than there is for Birmingham via Doncaster. Additionally TPE have stock to run the extra TPH without cutting capacity elsewhere, whereas XC would have to split double voyager formations.


Three complaints against one member of staff is generally a good indicator that the member of staff has repeatedly done stuff that warrants a complaint. There are dodgy people in every line of work, the railway is no exception.

Multiple other posters have explained there’s no need for it to be written, the station managing TOC has a duty of care to all passengers at that station, especially those who are vulnerable and late at night. If LNER don’t wish to comply with that then they should hand over management of their stations to someone that will comply. Except I’m sure LNER as a company does wish to comply and it’s simply a few rogue employees that don’t.

On the point of laughing, if people choose to have their personal conversation at a volume so loud that it can clearly be heard by passers by, then it’s their own fault if customers overhear.
Having a laugh isn’t in itself anything wrong and indeed it’s a good thing. But laughing at the customer’s misfortune in a location where the customer can hear is completely unacceptable.

I commute through Newcastle station almost every day, sometimes passing through three or four times in one day as I frequently travel across the North East for work. I also use the station whenever I travel for leisure.
I do not work at Newcastle station, and have never claimed otherwise.

I did mention in an earlier post that some of the staff at Newcastle station are exceptional, I’d go as far as saying some of the best station staff I’ve encountered have been at Newcastle station. Indeed I’m planning to submit a nomination in LNER’s customer choice awards for someone at Newcastle station who is always going above and beyond for customers and has done so for a long time.

So not at all a vendetta against Newcastle station, but I will call out things that are being done wrong.

In reflection I probably should make more mention in my posts of some of the positive things I see on the railway rather than focussing on calling out bad stuff.


You’ll be fine to get the train. Individual trains are being cancelled with tickets being valid on both the train before and the train after. We thankfully aren’t seeing on LNER the mass cancellations that the likes of TPE and Avanti are.
The strikes for this month have now been called off.

I haven’t had time to compile a list this morning, but a quick glance at LNER’s website shows an almost unaltered service running for much of the day with no cancellations and only a small number of trains starting/terminating short. A much better picture than a few days ago.

You make some valid points and, as a poster on here, I'm inclined to think you have at least an understanding of the railway. However, working on the platforms has a myriad of aspects which you may not always see as a passenger.

Long time ago and a long way away from Newcastle, I found myself temporarily on the GWR 'customer info' desk at Newport (S Wales) with service disruption. It was hard enough getting info out of GWR for customers - Arriva Trains Wales control just weren't interested, the best we could offer their customers was what we 'thought' ATW would do with the next service to Llanhileth. I suspect Newcastle staff give more help/info to LNER customers because they have more available.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sorry if I'm being obtuse but I genuinely don't know - what is the rest day working agreement?

And what happens when it is withdrawn? Does it mean that staff can't work rest days at all, or something along the lines of it's up to the individual staff whether to work a rest day or not? And then it can cause shortness of staff due to them choosing to work to rule or just not work the rest days cause of the holidays etc.

Cause I'm a bit confused with TOCs like Avanti, who don't have a rest day working agreement in place, why they don't just say that a lack of a RDW agreement is causing shortness of staff instead of accusing staff of unofficially striking. Them saying that staff still could choose to work suggests staff can work rest days regardless of a RDW agreement being in place - so I'm a bit confused.

Avanti do have a rest day working agreement in place. which means their drivers can work rest days. It’s just that they are choosing not to.

I do struggle with the concept of needing a rest day working agreement to enable crew to work rest days, and I suspect most people from outside the railway who work rostered hours would be somewhat bemused too.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Avanti do have a rest day working agreement in place. which means their drivers can work rest days. It’s just that they are choosing not to.

I do struggle with the concept of needing a rest day working agreement to enable crew to work rest days, and I suspect most people from outside the railway who work rostered hours would be somewhat bemused too.

Indeed but its a long standing historical agreement that the industry collectively has chosen to ignore dealing with. Im guessing it was pretty prevalent in BR days but with the increase in services since franchising teh dependency has gone up. Had they still been franchises would there have been remedies in the contracts? Also how much duty was put on the franchises to recruit and train new drivers?

 

[class397tpe]

Avanti do have a rest day working agreement in place. which means their drivers can work rest days. It’s just that they are choosing not to.

I do struggle with the concept of needing a rest day working agreement to enable crew to work rest days, and I suspect most people from outside the railway who work rostered hours would be somewhat bemused too.

Cheers for the reply - thanks, that clears it up a bit! I thought it had been withdrawn. Makes sense now!

 

[Bald Rick]

Back on topic, LNER also have a rest day working agreement, but there are rumours that their drivers are choosing not to work them either, and haven’t for about the same amount of time as Avanti. Perhaps someone who knows could confirm?

 

[74A]

I do struggle with the concept of needing a rest day working agreement to enable crew to work rest days, and I suspect most people from outside the railway who work rostered hours would be somewhat bemused too.

It's an ASLEF thing. They like to have it to lever concessions out of the TOC when they have one in place. Such as minimum pay of 10 hours for example.

RMT have never had such a thing allowing their members to work then as they wish.

I believe there is one TOC where the drivers have told ASLEF they will work them if they want to.

 

[DanNCL]

Back on topic, LNER also have a rest day working agreement, but there are rumours that their drivers are choosing not to work them either, and haven’t for about the same amount of time as Avanti. Perhaps someone who knows could confirm?

Thanks for sharing the situation. With other TOCs no longer having rest day working agreements I’d wondered if one had lapsed at LNER, which I see is not the case.

 

[317 forever]

The inverness train was cancelled today north of Edinburgh in both directions because of severe flooding in the Perth area - apart from early on nothing has moved through the area, a situation likely to remain until the end of the day. Moncrieffe Tunnel now has a water feature down a retaining wall.

Interesting that the new Secretary of State represents Berwick on Tweed, which may/may not affect her attitude to LNER and the other operators.

In winning that constituency she achieved something that no Tory candidate had done for over 40 years.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I see ECML has fallen apart yet again with the signalling issues in the Peterborough area not LNERs fault and to be fair to them they were looking good for today but NR infrastructure issues yet again on this route.

 

[greyman42]

Chaos at York this afternoon when the 1356 to London arrived at 1520. The train was that full that many passengers were unable to board or some of those that did board found it uncomfortably full so then wanted to get off. It did not help that one coach was out of use due to a broken window. It appeared that passengers eventually decided to use the coach anyway and a crew member stood "guarding" the damaged window.
This train was earlier held at Newcastle for over an hour. Does anyone know why? I was wondering if it had anything to do with the damaged window?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Chaos at York this afternoon when the 1356 to London arrived at 1520. The train was that full that many passengers were unable to board or some of those that did board found it uncomfortably full so then wanted to get off. It did not help that one coach was out of use due to a broken window. It appeared that passengers eventually decided to use the coach anyway and a crew member stood "guarding" the damaged window.
This train was earlier held at Newcastle for over an hour. Does anyone know why? I was wondering if it had anything to do with the damaged window?

Well the signalling fell over at Peterborough and has only just been sorted but it was utter chaos at Kings Cross with the barriers being locked closes about 90s after a train was advertised so unless you were at the barriers you couldn't get on even if you had a reservation as basically it was a free for all. Not LNER's fault but customer service was non existent and you would have thought by now with almost weekly the route falling over somewhere they would have a slickly oiled machine by now. Mind you i don't envy the platform staff, nor train managers and those in control trying to keep the show on the road.

 

[43055]

Chaos at York this afternoon when the 1356 to London arrived at 1520. The train was that full that many passengers were unable to board or some of those that did board found it uncomfortably full so then wanted to get off. It did not help that one coach was out of use due to a broken window. It appeared that passengers eventually decided to use the coach anyway and a crew member stood "guarding" the damaged window.
This train was earlier held at Newcastle for over an hour. Does anyone know why? I was wondering if it had anything to do with the damaged window?

There have been problems at Peterborough for most of the day which resulted in services being delayed by around 2 hours. Potently the train was waiting for crew off a northbound service that was delayed.

 

[skyhigh]

This train was earlier held at Newcastle for over an hour. Does anyone know why? I was wondering if it had anything to do with the damaged window?

Waiting for crew off another delayed train. The delay at Darlington was partly due to the window.

 

[800001]

Chaos at York this afternoon when the 1356 to London arrived at 1520. The train was that full that many passengers were unable to board or some of those that did board found it uncomfortably full so then wanted to get off. It did not help that one coach was out of use due to a broken window. It appeared that passengers eventually decided to use the coach anyway and a crew member stood "guarding" the damaged window.
This train was earlier held at Newcastle for over an hour. Does anyone know why? I was wondering if it had anything to do with the damaged window?

The window had a Tempory repair and the coach was allowed to be used for customers again.

 

[Par]

The service to Leeds was absolutely decimated today.

I was on 1D26 which left 81 down and never got better.

The train was actually in Platform 0 at 18.15 (formed off an Aberdeen service) and was fully boarded by 18.30, however there was then a 55 minute delay whilst a driver could be found to take the train north.

 

[IanXC]

Well the signalling fell over at Peterborough and has only just been sorted but it was utter chaos at Kings Cross with the barriers being locked closes about 90s after a train was advertised so unless you were at the barriers you couldn't get on even if you had a reservation as basically it was a free for all. Not LNER's fault but customer service was non existent and you would have thought by now with almost weekly the route falling over somewhere they would have a slickly oiled machine by now. Mind you i don't envy the platform staff, nor train managers and those in control trying to keep the show on the road.

Maybe the route cause wasn't LNER's fault, but customer service and advertising platforms at Kings Cross most definitely is their responsibility.

 

[800001]

View attachment 120657

The service to Leeds was absolutely decimated today.

I was on 1D26 which left 81 down and never got better.

The train was actually in Platform 0 at 18.15 (formed off an Aberdeen service) and was fully boarded by 18.30, however there was then a 55 minute delay whilst a driver could be found to take the train north.

Of course they will be trying to find a driver, if the one booked to work it is on a severely delayed service heading into London.

 

[DanNCL]

It’s quite nice to see that not only is there very little (if any) crew shortage related disruption on LNER today, but they’ve also got enough crew to run an additional service from Edinburgh to Newcastle to take mourners home. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:77388/2022-09-12/detailed

Hopefully last week was just a blip with the cancellations!

 

[800001]

It’s quite nice to see that not only is there very little (if any) crew shortage related disruption on LNER today, but they’ve also got enough crew to run an additional service from Edinburgh to Newcastle to take mourners home. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:77388/2022-09-12/detailed

Hopefully last week was just a blip with the cancellations!

Using one of the 2 sets that normally move ecs from Edinburgh to Heaton.

It’s quite nice to see that not only is there very little (if any) crew shortage related disruption on LNER today, but they’ve also got enough crew to run an additional service from Edinburgh to Newcastle to take mourners home. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:77388/2022-09-12/detailed

Hopefully last week was just a blip with the cancellations!

Is now cancelled

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Maybe the route cause wasn't LNER's fault, but customer service and advertising platforms at Kings Cross most definitely is their responsibility.

For sure passenger management at Kings Cross was diabolical yesterday as i said you would have thought by now with almost weekly chaos on ECML LNER would be better organised. Its not as if the incident had only just started basically it was in play from the start of service. Exactly what the issue was ive not determined (NR don't have an Eastern region twitter from what i can see that may have illuminated the issue) but trains were losing considerable time across the ex Peterborough signal control area although stepping was showing up on "signalmaps" so it wasn't totally broken.

 

[800001]

For sure passenger management at Kings Cross was diabolical yesterday as i said you would have thought by now with almost weekly chaos on ECML LNER would be better organised. Its not as if the incident had only just started basically it was in play from the start of service. Exactly what the issue was ive not determined (NR don't have an Eastern region twitter from what i can see that may have illuminated the issue) but trains were losing considerable time across the ex Peterborough signal control area although stepping was showing up on "signalmaps" so it wasn't totally broken.

Emergency special working was in place on the up and down fast immediately north of Peterborough station for a distance of 4 miles.
Should easily of been able to cope with 5 trains per hour (as per contingency plans).

LNER early on cancelled trains in the hours where they operate 5 train, so that made 4 LNER per hour plus 1 open access path.

However for reasons undone some trains sat for over an hour and some for nearly 90 min.

Replace parts for the SSI we’re sourced from Newcastle, this was transported by train to the site.

I believe ‘normal working’ was granted around 1800.

It started at 0515 with a total loss of signalling, although signals were showing correct Colours on the ground.

Totally shamblic in how long it took network rail to deal with the situation.

 

[DanNCL]

Is now cancelled

Reinstated again as of 17:50.