London Buses Discussion

[Deerfold]

They were a bespoke bus with 3 doors and 2 staircases. It's hardly a surprise that operators outside London didn't buy them.

There's plenty of places outside the UK have multi-door buses that demonstrators visited. They went to at least 16 countries.

And, as I said, operators in London didn't want them, either.

 

[Stan Drews]

There have been generations of London buses that have moved out of the capital to all over the UK usually after some conversion work. They have often led long lives away from the capital. It’s highly unlikely you’ll see any NRM’s taking that well worn path out of London and the major operators realised that so didn’t want to take on the headache of ownership, leaving them all for TfL.

 

[Snow1964]

The NRMs are junk, hated by engineers. Their fuel consumption is worse than similarly aged other hybrids and the batteries need replacing more often. They're an obsolete design which should never have seen the light of day - you can blame Johnson for that.

One was converted a couple of years ago but has hardly ever been used. Range is apparently impractical. So I think that idea's dead. With the first of the NRMs coming up to 14 years old (and getting very rattly) I'll be glad to see their numbers start being depleted, although I doubt if many if any find a second life elsewhere.

The 8 prototypes (pre production) entered service in 2012

The first full conversion to NRMs was route 24 in June 2013, so these are now 11.5 years old.

The final ones were late 2017 (one was delayed to 2018), so are now 7 years old.

I think about 650 (not sure of exact number) have now been refurbished, a process which started about 3 years ago. They are now getting wing mirrors replaced by cameras, about 100 have been modified so far.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 8 prototypes (pre production) entered service in 2012

The first full conversion to NRMs was route 24 in June 2013, so these are now 11.5 years old.

The final ones were late 2017 (one was delayed to 2018), so are now 7 years old.

I think about 650 (not sure of exact number) have now been refurbished, a process which started about 3 years ago. They are now getting wing mirrors replaced by cameras, about 100 have been modified so far.

And all should be gone by 2030. That's why new contracts using them are only for three years.

The fitment of camera mirrors on these vehicles doesn't seem like the best use of scarce funds.

And, as I said, operators in London didn't want them, either.

And neither did TfL!

 

[talldave]

As a passenger I prefer a NRM over any other bland, plasticy, creaky double decker every time.

 

[Ghostbus]

A far as I recall, the NRM was never meant to leave London. TfL invested money in design and technology to build a bus specifically for London that was pitched as an icon of London. Why would they ever have presided over a situation where after 5 or 7 years, they started drifting off to far flung areas of the UK, only to be replaced by newer NRMs? They were always meant to be leased and refurbished to get a full working life out of a wholly owned asset, just like the original Routemaster. Non-London and export orders were only ever aimed at bringing down the unit cost for London, unless/until the stage was reached where other partnerships could be formed.

Austerity pretty much killed the wider NRM project and severely impacted its London benefits, but even then, it's ironic to see ADLs cheap knock off and Wright's SRM only attracting orders from TfL contractors. We can see from just 30 buses ordered by Lothian, where the future for UK manufacturers lay. Leveraging technological/manufacturing innovation to serve a higher master than super cheap and one size fits all, while allowing cheap and cheerful to keep the cash flowing and the lines humming. And we're certainly dreaming if we don't think the savings of franchising are minimal unless you transition to an NRM style whole life leasing deep partnership with a manufacturer committed to the UK.

But thanks to Khan, London leapt wholeheartedly back to the privatised model of bus manufacture/procurement. And where London goes, everyone else has to follow. Which he knew. Hopefully Mayor Burnham is reminding him of it every day.

 

[Mikey C]

Their not my favourite buses, but when the recent rebuild of Bank station cost £700m, the extra cost of London having a more bespoke bus really isn't very much over 1000 buses.

 

[Goldfish62]

As a passenger I prefer a NRM over any other bland, plasticy, creaky double decker every time.

I'm my opinion you've actually just described an NRM.

 

[Statto]

As a passenger I prefer a NRM over any other bland, plasticy, creaky double decker every time.

As a passenger, i dislike NRMs a lot & i find NRMs uncomfortable too, just like the Artics, the NRMs are a vanity project & quite expensive too, NRMs cost over 300k a vehicle don't they?

 

[Mikey C]

As a passenger, i dislike NRMs a lot & i find NRMs uncomfortable too, just like the Artics, the NRMs are a vanity project & quite expensive too, NRMs cost over 300k a vehicle don't they?

£350k vs £300k for a regular bus were the figures issued.

 

[MotCO]

I've often thought that NRMs, converted to electric power, would make good tourist buses because of their extra length.

 

[Intro298]

As a passenger I prefer a NRM over any other bland, plasticy, creaky double decker every time.

NRMs are hot, have tiny windows, a dark and gloomy interior, horrible leg room and rubbish seats. Compared to a Gemini 3 or a 400 MMC they are rubbish for passenger experience, apart from the novelty of a third door and second staircase.

 

[talldave]

As a passenger, i dislike NRMs a lot & i find NRMs uncomfortable too, just like the Artics, the NRMs are a vanity project & quite expensive too, NRMs cost over 300k a vehicle don't they?

And I'm sure their iconic design in the eyes of visitors to London brings in tourism revenue that far outweighs any cost difference vs "blandbus".

NRMs have some of the tallest seats I've encountered on a bus, which is nice for us less vertically challenged beings.

 

[Intro298]

And I'm sure their iconic design in the eyes of visitors to London brings in tourism revenue that far outweighs any cost difference vs "blandbus".

NRMs have some of the tallest seats I've encountered on a bus, which is nice for us less vertically challenged beings.

Do you travel on buses often? In my experience they're quite short seats compared to most other buses and the leg room is easily the worst I've experienced even towards the back on the upper deck (which usually has more space between each seat) is very cramped.

 

[camflyer]

At long last for the Irizar IE Trams to see service. Will be interesting to see what the passengers & drivers make of them & whether the wait was worth it or not.

Video from Geoff Marshall

 

[Goldfish62]

Do you travel on buses often? In my experience they're quite short seats compared to most other buses and the leg room is easily the worst I've experienced even towards the back on the upper deck (which usually has more space between each seat) is very cramped.

And they also have the hardest, most uncomfortable seating. Notably, Rowan Telmac went bust straight after supplying the Boris Master seating.

Then there's warm weather. Despite having opening windows fitted they are always several degrees hotter than other double decks in warm weather.

All in all, thoroughly primitive compared with what's come into service in recent years.

 

[Mikey C]

I loved the open platform though, which was the whole point of the bespoke design. It was great getting on and off at the back, and using the rear staircase in between stops.

 

[Deerfold]

I loved the open platform though, which was the whole point of the bespoke design. It was great getting on and off at the back, and using the rear staircase in between stops.

The point was to duplicate what people could do on the old Routemasters. Until they employed "conductors" to stop people doing that. Then put on a door.

They've also got a surprisingly low number of seats that don't require you to use a step.

They very much seem to have been designed for people looking at them rather than using them.

And I'm sure their iconic design in the eyes of visitors to London brings in tourism revenue that far outweighs any cost difference vs "blandbus".

NRMs have some of the tallest seats I've encountered on a bus, which is nice for us less vertically challenged beings.

How many tourists know or care what a bus is, other than it being red?

Did London tourist revenue drop between the virtual withdrawal of the Routemaster and the introduction of the NRM?

 

[MCR247]

And I'm sure their iconic design in the eyes of visitors to London brings in tourism revenue that far outweighs any cost difference vs "blandbus".

NRMs have some of the tallest seats I've encountered on a bus, which is nice for us less vertically challenged beings.

The problem I have with the ‘tall’ seats downstairs is that they are raked backwards to the point that that the upper part may as well not be there.

 

[Goldfish62]

Video from Geoff Marshall

Pretty positive, even from Roger French who has previously been quite negative about these buses.

And I'm sure their iconic design in the eyes of visitors to London brings in tourism revenue that far outweighs any cost difference vs "blandbus".

Do you honestly think tourists notice that they're any different from any other modern double deck bus?!

 

[johncrossley]

Pretty positive, even from Roger French who has previously been quite negative about these buses.

It shouldn't really be a surprise, given that these buses have been in operation for many years in many other cities.

I thought French doesn't travel outside the British Isles, so how would he have past experience of these buses?

 

[Goldfish62]

It shouldn't really be a surprise, given that these buses have been in operation for many years in many other cities

Indeed. Seems that a lot of people aren't aware of that.

I thought French doesn't travel outside the British Isles, so how would he have past experience of these buses?

His reports from viewing them at Eurobus Expo.

 

[Ghostbus]

Some of the criticism the NRM gets is so unfair and some still is frankly based on complete misinformation. I suppose that is just what happens when politicians and politics are involved.

The NRM was designed from the outset as a closed cabin bus with full environmental control. AFAIK this was a new innovation for a standard London bus.

The NRM was designed from the outset with a closeable door fitted to an open rear platform to allow it to be used as either a one or two person operated bus suited to the nature of London work, a broad mix of intensive urban and suburban running as well as night service. AFAIK this had never been done, and was an advance even on the original Routemaster (two basic variants for London work, a two man bus and a one man "coach").

The NRM was designed from the outset to be a London icon and a functional London bus. Hence it was designed in partnership with TfL to its precise requirements. They would then own (lease) and operate (tender) it for its entire working life, refurbishing and upgrading as necessary. This had not been attempted since the 1950s, and not at all under a tendering system.

The unit cost of the NRM was always going to go down, hopefully not just matching but falling below that of a "regular bus" (which at the time was still a conventional diesel with minimal London specific features). Pretty hard to do that if you cancel the project without having even supplied an eighth of the total London bus fleet or operated for even half of the very first tender to be awarded with NRMs.

I don't think people really understand how innovative this was at the time, a clear fifteen years ago or more. And they most definitely don't realise the money and effort Wrightbus put into completely re-imagining their entire business to give the UK a head start in hybrid buses or any other promising alternative. Hybrid being something many people at that time were still arguing might be a fad. Something to be quickly eclipsed by lng, hydrogen or full electrics. Now we know. They knew what they were doing. We failed them, not the other way around.

The plan was sound. Austerity and later Covid has completely derailed far bigger projects than the NRM. But there It is, ready and willing to help Khan get re-elected in a use hitherto unimagined by TfL, a SuperLoop. There are Hollywood movies and merchandise featuring this new London icon. The styling was even copied by ADL. Tourists do know. Hence the status of the original.

Hybrid technology was a much needed bridge to full electric. With Wrightbus 1.0 gone, the initiative has been lost to our European and Chinese competitors. The broken model of bus procurement is unchanged, despite the huge later focus on the broken model of operation that spawned it.

But the changes Wrightbus 1.0 made were so foresighted, unsurprising given it wasn't exactly their first turn as a London pioneer, Wrigbtbus 2.0 was well placed to rapidly recover. But not before proving there was still a market for bespoke buses designed in partnership with a municipal with higher goals than just minding every penny. Alas, it was only for 30 buses (Lothian tour fleet).

And so now it's ADL, the main beneficiary of Khan's decision, who apparently seem to be unable to answer the fundamental questions that still exist now the co-design/lifetime lease model has been dumped. How much is it and what does it weigh? And can I buy it directly from the folk who make half of it, cheaper?

 

[miklcct]

London Buses failed me this evening. My office is in Gray's Inn and I had to travel to Hampstead Heath for an important meeting (an AGM). The 46 was the only direct route which was the shortest route to get me from my office to Hampstead Heath and it was door to door, so the route was the fastest and easiest as returned by journey planners.

The route was advertised to run every approximately 12 minutes and I got to the bus stop at 19:13 (with scheduled departures 19:16, 19:28, 19:41 and 19:56) but I didn't see any buses for a long time (not even a 17), and I waited for 40 minutes before a 46 bus turned up.

The majority of the 46 route is served only by the 46, and the 46 runs the most direct route (i.e. the route if I am given a car or bike to drive) to my destination so I had no other choices.

After around 20 minutes at the bus stop, with the vehicle monitoring showing nothing nearby and the ETA showing nothing coming soon, I tried to call the operator (Metroline) but the hotline was not in operation.

As a result when I got to Hampstead Heath the meeting was nearly finished.

I'll make a complaint to TfL soon. In the future, how should I contact the control centre if the buses aren't running to schedule? Which phone number or Twitter account is the most effective?

 

[Mikey C]

The point was to duplicate what people could do on the old Routemasters. Until they employed "conductors" to stop people doing that. Then put on a door.

The customer assistants (who were there from the start) never stopped you getting on and off if it was a sensible place, e.g. in at slow traffic lights or a London traffic jam and you were next to the pavement. I really liked taking the 9 or 10 from Kensington into town when they had a second crew member, second only to the 9H which really used to zip along.

And even without the 2nd crew member, being able to board at the back did speed things up, but then they got rid of that time saver as well. As always in the UK, revenue protection comes back to the driver, rather than from separate revenue staff which other European cities prefer.

 

[talldave]

The problem I have with the ‘tall’ seats downstairs is that they are raked backwards to the point that that the upper part may as well not be there.

I must be very laid back, I think they're great !

Do you honestly think tourists notice that they're any different from any other modern double deck bus?!

Yes.

 

[Goldfish62]

I must be very laid back, I think they're great !

Have you not been on anything introduced post-2021? Comfortable high-back seats throughout the bus. Far superior. Just wondering how much you actually use buses in London.

Yes.

No evidence of that, but each to their own!

 

[jumble]

The recent electric bus order announcements and tender wins (where bus will be EV, but type on order is not yet known) takes the total of electric buses in London to over 3000

Roughly 8800 buses in the fleet, so now know over third will be electric by end of 2025 (although some deliveries might be early 2026)

TfL moved away from diesel after about 2018 (there are just 187 diesel single decks and 333 hybrid double decks delivered 2019, or early 2020), nothing since. So coming up to 5 years since anything with diesel engine was ordered.

And my goodness one now really sees the difference
Near Us the 398 is electric and wonderfully quiet
The H13 is horrible noisy and rattily

 

[Deerfold]

The customer assistants (who were there from the start) never stopped you getting on and off if it was a sensible place, e.g. in at slow traffic lights or a London traffic jam and you were next to the pavement. I really liked taking the 9 or 10 from Kensington into town when they had a second crew member, second only to the 9H which really used to zip along.

That's not what was reported at the time.

'Mollycoddling Boris bus conductors should stop lecturing on safety,'

www.standard.co.uk

A Home Office minister has called on Boris Johnson to tell “mollycoddling” conductors to “back off” and stop lecturing passengers about safety on London’s new Routemaster buses.
Norman Baker said he was fed up with being told by conductors not to stand on the open platform at the rear as he waited to get off.

It was only ever allowed on 6 routes. For up to 4 years.

And even without the 2nd crew member, being able to board at the back did speed things up, but then they got rid of that time saver as well. As always in the UK, revenue protection comes back to the driver, rather than from separate revenue staff which other European cities prefer.

The "conductor" on the NRM, being too busy stopping people getting on or off to check tickets.

After around 20 minutes at the bus stop, with the vehicle monitoring showing nothing nearby and the ETA showing nothing coming soon, I tried to call the operator (Metroline) but the hotline was not in operation.

I'm not aware that Metroline has a "hotline". Passengers are rarely encouraged to contact operators direct in TfL Land. Was the route showing as approaching on signs at the stop or on apps?

 

[londonteacher]

London Buses failed me this evening. My office is in Gray's Inn and I had to travel to Hampstead Heath for an important meeting (an AGM). The 46 was the only direct route which was the shortest route to get me from my office to Hampstead Heath and it was door to door, so the route was the fastest and easiest as returned by journey planners.

The route was advertised to run every approximately 12 minutes and I got to the bus stop at 19:13 (with scheduled departures 19:16, 19:28, 19:41 and 19:56) but I didn't see any buses for a long time (not even a 17), and I waited for 40 minutes before a 46 bus turned up.

The majority of the 46 route is served only by the 46, and the 46 runs the most direct route (i.e. the route if I am given a car or bike to drive) to my destination so I had no other choices.

After around 20 minutes at the bus stop, with the vehicle monitoring showing nothing nearby and the ETA showing nothing coming soon, I tried to call the operator (Metroline) but the hotline was not in operation.

As a result when I got to Hampstead Heath the meeting was nearly finished.

I'll make a complaint to TfL soon. In the future, how should I contact the control centre if the buses aren't running to schedule? Which phone number or Twitter account is the most effective?

I’m not sure how they failed you. Yes, the 46 obviously had disruption that could have been caused by anything such as traffic, breakdowns, road closures but the service still got you there just not within your expected (and timetabled timeframe). I get that you feel let down but they didn’t fail you. There are plenty of other direct services from the Grays Inn Road area such as the 214, 1 and the Northern Line within walking distance that would get you to the Hampstead Heath area. Yes not as direct granted.

I’m not sure what you hoped to gain from calling Metroline - I’ve not heard of any London bus operator having the service where you can call them to find out where a bus is. The TfL go app, Citymapper, BusTimes and Google Maps are all recommended for tracking services but these are still affected by the latest TfL cyber attack.

As for a phone number or Twitter account, I’m not sure there is any that are monitored and people should use the services mentioned above.