London Buses Discussion

[Goldfish62]

I’m not sure how they failed you. Yes, the 46 obviously had disruption that could have been caused by anything such as traffic, breakdowns, road closures but the service still got you there just not within your expected (and timetabled timeframe). I get that you feel let down but they didn’t fail you. There are plenty of other direct services from the Grays Inn Road area such as the 214, 1 and the Northern Line within walking distance that would get you to the Hampstead Heath area. Yes not as direct granted.

I’m not sure what you hoped to gain from calling Metroline - I’ve not heard of any London bus operator having the service where you can call them to find out where a bus is. The TfL go app, Citymapper, BusTimes and Google Maps are all recommended for tracking services but these are still affected by the latest TfL cyber attack.

As for a phone number or Twitter account, I’m not sure there is any that are monitored and people should use the services mentioned above.

Indeed. The gap in service suggests some sort of incident or blockage.

And of course even if it was possible to call the control centre it wouldn't make the buses turn up any quicker.

 

[GodAtum]

Not impressed with the new electric route 433, and I guess the same will happen to the new tram-bus route 358. The electronic displays hardly work and the wheelchair ramp keeps accidently deploying!!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Indeed. The gap in service suggests some sort of incident or blockage.

And of course even if it was possible to call the control centre it wouldn't make the buses turn up any quicker.

Quite. Best things is to be ready to formulate a plan B. I'd have been considering one of the Lime e-bikes for instance.

 

[miklcct]

I’m not sure how they failed you. Yes, the 46 obviously had disruption that could have been caused by anything such as traffic, breakdowns, road closures but the service still got you there just not within your expected (and timetabled timeframe). I get that you feel let down but they didn’t fail you. There are plenty of other direct services from the Grays Inn Road area such as the 214, 1 and the Northern Line within walking distance that would get you to the Hampstead Heath area. Yes not as direct granted.

A 40-minute gap in a service advertised to run every 12 minutes isn't acceptable to passengers or TfL.

Unfortunately Gray's Inn is in the middle between the Bank branch and the Charing Cross branch of the Northern line. When you compare between a direct bus which gets you door to door compared with the railways which take similar time but don't have a direct route, require stairs to get in the station, an inconvenient change, 10 minutes of packed sardine journey on the Northern line, and an uphill walk after getting out at Belsize Park, the choice was obvious.

I’m not sure what you hoped to gain from calling Metroline - I’ve not heard of any London bus operator having the service where you can call them to find out where a bus is. The TfL go app, Citymapper, BusTimes and Google Maps are all recommended for tracking services but these are still affected by the latest TfL cyber attack.

I checked the map on bustimes.org and it showed no buses at all near City of London on the 46 route, and the ETA showed nothing before 25 minutes even I had waited for 20 minutes already. I expected the operator would arrange another bus from a frequent route nearby which had a good service to fill in the gap.

The following map was taken after I boarded the bus after 40-minute wait. It showed no buses at all between the bus I was on near Kings Cross, all the way to Hampstead and to Swiss Cottage. The operator clearly failed to intervene.

As for a phone number or Twitter account, I’m not sure there is any that are monitored and people should use the services mentioned above.

Nothing above would help if the operator doesn't actively monitor the situation for each route.

In Hong Kong, sometimes I had to call the operator to make them aware of the problems, for example, multiple buses skipped the stop because they were completely full, so an empty bus was dispatched to carry passenger from an intermediate stop.

 

[Ghostbus]

I’m not sure how they failed you. Yes, the 46 obviously had disruption that could have been caused by anything such as traffic, breakdowns, road closures but the service still got you there just not within your expected (and timetabled timeframe). I get that you feel let down but they didn’t fail you. There are plenty of other direct services from the Grays Inn Road area such as the 214, 1 and the Northern Line within walking distance that would get you to the Hampstead Heath area. Yes not as direct granted.

I’m not sure what you hoped to gain from calling Metroline - I’ve not heard of any London bus operator having the service where you can call them to find out where a bus is. The TfL go app, Citymapper, BusTimes and Google Maps are all recommended for tracking services but these are still affected by the latest TfL cyber attack.

As for a phone number or Twitter account, I’m not sure there is any that are monitored and people should use the services mentioned above.

I don't think he left enough time for an important AGM. He was only delayed 37 minutes, but that meant the meeting was "nearly finished"? Unless he only had to be there for the last 5 minutes?

But in the general case, by any measure, being delayed 37 minutes for a journey that should have taken 33 minutes (3 min wait, 30 minute bus ride), and then having no means to know what caused it, is a failure.

Out of interest, what's your alternative timings here, if you don't check a planner until after you're starting to panic (even if you know the alternative routes beforehand, you're still going to want to check they're unaffected by whatever is delaying the 46 before you make a move). How much better than a 37 minute delay can you get it?

 

[londonteacher]

A 40-minute gap in a service advertised to run every 12 minutes isn't acceptable to passengers or TfL.

Yes it’s not acceptable, but as I said there can be so many different reasons as to why it occurred. London has so many different routes.

I expected the operator would arrange another bus from a frequent route nearby which had a good service to fill in the gap.

Drivers have to know the route though and the bus a suitable one for the route. It’s not just a case of moving one bus to another route - if it was it would make life so much easier but it just doesn’t work that way.

In Hong Kong, sometimes I had to call the operator to make them aware of the problems, for example, multiple buses skipped the stop because they were completely full, so an empty bus was dispatched to carry passenger from an intermediate stop.

I get that, but that’s not how TfL works and I’m sure that the garages don’t have their public facing phones manned all day - who would pay the staff for this?

But in the general case, by any measure, being delayed 37 minutes for a journey that should have taken 33 minutes (3 min wait, 30 minute bus ride), and then having no means to know what caused it, is a failure

I agree, but considering the number of buses that TfL run this would be very difficult to manage sharing information for every delayed/cancelled bus.

I don't think he left enough time for an important AGM. He was only delayed 37 minutes, but that meant the meeting was "nearly finished"? Unless he only had to be there for the last 5 minutes?

Agreed. Failure to prepare… if I have somewhere important to go then I will one leave early but also check the route planners before leaving.

 

[Deerfold]

Nothing above would help if the operator doesn't actively monitor the situation for each route.

Operators in London monitor their routes - they're incentivised to do so. Unless there was something out of their control like a demonstration or major accident, they are rated for having regular intervals between buses with bonuses and penalties depending how well they do that. They're also penalised for "long gaps" which are double the scheduled frequency.

In Hong Kong, sometimes I had to call the operator to make them aware of the problems, for example, multiple buses skipped the stop because they were completely full, so an empty bus was dispatched to carry passenger from an intermediate stop.

I'm sure it's been pointed out to you before that London operates very differently to Hong Kong. In London that might happen after passenger complaints if it's happening regularly and will be added to the timetable (or, more likely, an additional bus along the whole route).

 

[Goldfish62]

I checked the map on bustimes.org and it showed no buses at all near City of London on the 46 route, and the ETA showed nothing before 25 minutes even I had waited for 20 minutes already. I expected the operator would arrange another bus from a frequent route nearby which had a good service to fill in the gap.

The following map was taken after I boarded the bus after 40-minute wait. It showed no buses at all between the bus I was on near Kings Cross, all the way to Hampstead and to Swiss Cottage. The operator clearly failed to intervene.View attachment 169773

Many years ago I was a controller on the London bus network, and looking at the above map I agree it doesn't look good and as a passenger I'd be a bit peeved.

However, we simply don't know how that gap came about, when and what options there were to fill it.

Robbing another route and creating a gap there really isn't an option except in the most extreme circumstances (eg to fill a gap in an hourly service or run a scholl bus - I've done that myself). You've got to consider the bus type suitability, driver route knowledge, driver's hours, whether by the time you got the bus over to the route the problem had resolved itself and the issue of simply transferring the gap in service on to another route.

Looking at the above map it seems obvious that some of those buses at the Clerkenwell end would have been running quite late, so a potential intervention would have been to curtail one or more at KX which would have the benefit of getting them back on time and plugging the gap towards Paddington.

However, without knowing when and how the gap was created it really is difficult to know what was going on and whether it could have been dealt with better.

Controllers have all the tools available to them. Their ibus screen shows the location and headway status of each bus, plus CCTV at strategic locations on the road network. But of course it still requires human intervention to make the decisions (while adding that some operators are now experimenting with AI to recommend decisions...).

 

[65477]

the original Routemaster (two basic variants for London work, a two man bus and a one man "coach").

The original RM only had one variant, this was then extended by one bay to produce the longer RML. A new version was then required to Greenline work, with doors and additional luggage space. Again this was developed into two versions, the RMC and RCL. As a half-cab design all these versions of the Routemaster were two person operated.

Apart from LT, two versions were developed with a front door entrance, one for BEA and one for Northern General. The BEA buses passed to LT in the late 1970's.

The only one person operated RM by LT was the single prototype FRM.

Edited after following post.

 

[Goldfish62]

The only one person operated RM was the single prototype FRM.

Unless you include the two incredibly odd looking conversions that Northern General did.

 

[Ghostbus]

The original RM only had one variant, this was then extended by one bay to produce the longer RML. A new version was then required to Greenline work, with doors and additional luggage space. Again this was developed into two versions, the RMC and RCL. As a half-cab design all these versions of the Routemaster were two person operated.

Apart from LT, two versions were developed with a front door entrance, one for BEA and one for Northern General. The BEA buses passed to LT in the late 1970's.

The only one person operated RM was the single prototype FRM.

Well yes. My original point being, trying to create a single model of bus that could be operated as either a two person central London vehicle or a one person suburban/night London bus at the flick of a switch and a line on a roster, was far more ambitious from a design/technology standpoint than even the original Routmaster project.

The bus/coach variation of the original is more like the plan to later develop a single stair two door version of the NRM, once the rollout of the original had made significant inroads. Alas, all we got were some weird half breeds, deisgned, procured and operated through the usual methods. E.g., (I assume) any enhancements to the original NRM common elements arising from the SRM would remain the sole intellectual property of Wrightbus.

 

[Man of Kent]

Unless you include the two incredibly odd looking conversions that Northern General did.

Only one of those was a Routemaster (The Wearsider) - the other was a Leyland Titan PD3 (The Tynesider).

 

[Goldfish62]

Only one of those was a Routemaster (The Wearsider) - the other was a Leyland Titan PD3 (The Tynesider).

Ah - I stand corrected. Thanks.

 

[Geogregor]

Video from Geoff Marshall

And some of my shots:

20241120_130150 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20241120_130200 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20241120_162000 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And not mine, how they charge:

x.com

x.com

 

[Mwanesh]

A 40-minute gap in a service advertised to run every 12 minutes isn't acceptable to passengers or TfL.

Unfortunately Gray's Inn is in the middle between the Bank branch and the Charing Cross branch of the Northern line. When you compare between a direct bus which gets you door to door compared with the railways which take similar time but don't have a direct route, require stairs to get in the station, an inconvenient change, 10 minutes of packed sardine journey on the Northern line, and an uphill walk after getting out at Belsize Park, the choice was obvious.


I checked the map on bustimes.org and it showed no buses at all near City of London on the 46 route, and the ETA showed nothing before 25 minutes even I had waited for 20 minutes already. I expected the operator would arrange another bus from a frequent route nearby which had a good service to fill in the gap.

The following map was taken after I boarded the bus after 40-minute wait. It showed no buses at all between the bus I was on near Kings Cross, all the way to Hampstead and to Swiss Cottage. The operator clearly failed to intervene.View attachment 169773




Nothing above would help if the operator doesn't actively monitor the situation for each route.

In Hong Kong, sometimes I had to call the operator to make them aware of the problems, for example, multiple buses skipped the stop because they were completely full, so an empty bus was dispatched to carry passenger from an intermediate stop.

Did you factor in the farmers protests in London.One problem in London can have a knock on effect on the network

 

[MCR247]

And some of my shots:

20241120_130150 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20241120_130200 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20241120_162000 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

And not mine, how they charge:

x.com

x.com

Great photos but I find those low down windows so bizarre

 

[johncrossley]

If you look at photos of these buses in other cities, a black livery is often chosen so the low windows aren't so apparent. Especially in artic form where it looks more like a tram.

 

[Goldfish62]

If you look at photos of these buses in other cities, a black livery is often chosen so the low windows aren't so apparent. Especially in artic form where it looks more like a tram.

The lower windows are optional, but it looks like most operators have opted for them.

 

[signed]

those low down windows so bizarre

They have been a new thing on continental operators, Iveco have the same on their French market electric Heuliez midibus

 

[Mikey C]

How long will those wheel covers last in service?

Considering the reluctance of most UK operators to even have wheel nut rings, it seems unlikely that such massive wheel covers will last long.

 

[37114]

How long will those wheel covers last in service?

Considering the reluctance of most UK operators to even have wheel nut rings, it seems unlikely that such massive wheel covers will last long.

As wheel nut torque is one of the things you need to regularly check, the absence of wheel trims etc is understandable. I give those plastic covers a year at best.

 

[Goldfish62]

As wheel nut torque is one of the things you need to regularly check, the absence of wheel trims etc is understandable. I give those plastic covers a year at best.

They're still intact on the Belfast Van Hool thingies.

An electronic system is used to continually monitor wheel nut integrity. Should be safer than a one-off visual inspection which may or may not detect issues at a single snapshot in time. I bet the majority of wheel losses occur on vehicles where the driver has conducted a first-use check and at that time the wheelnuts were visually intact.

 

[MotCO]

Is there a problem with data from iBus today (or is it still being badly affected by the TfL data issue)? The Live London Bus Map http://traintimes.org.uk/map/london-buses/#358 has not picked up any data, and the London Vehicle Finder is only picking up half the scheduled buses on the 358: it is showing only one bus heading for Crystal Palace!

 

[borage]

Is there a problem with data from iBus today (or is it still being badly affected by the TfL data issue)? The Live London Bus Map http://traintimes.org.uk/map/london-buses/#358 has not picked up any data, and the London Vehicle Finder is only picking up half the scheduled buses on the 358: it is showing only one bus heading for Crystal Palace!

Yes, there was a problem with the "Countdown" system this morning. It looks like it's back to normal* now as the traintimes.org.uk map is showing buses again. (*not perfect, as an indirect result of the cyber security incident)

 

[Mikey C]

They're still intact on the Belfast Van Hool thingies.

An electronic system is used to continually monitor wheel nut integrity. Should be safer than a one-off visual inspection which may or may not detect issues at a single snapshot in time. I bet the majority of wheel losses occur on vehicles where the driver has conducted a first-use check and at that time the wheelnuts were visually intact.

And the wheel trims that feature on most Stagecoach buses for example, and indeed lots of trucks and coaches, and buses overseas still allow wheel nut inspection anyway.

 

[londonbridge]

Same thing as a few weeks back, waiting at Fairfield Halls and the 154 has come through the underpass and gone off down the flyover, only this time there are no signs or notices to say it’s not serving the stop.

 

[Edsmith]

Some of the criticism the NRM gets is so unfair and some still is frankly based on complete misinformation. I suppose that is just what happens when politicians and politics are involved.

The NRM was designed from the outset as a closed cabin bus with full environmental control. AFAIK this was a new innovation for a standard London bus.

The NRM was designed from the outset with a closeable door fitted to an open rear platform to allow it to be used as either a one or two person operated bus suited to the nature of London work, a broad mix of intensive urban and suburban running as well as night service. AFAIK this had never been done, and was an advance even on the original Routemaster (two basic variants for London work, a two man bus and a one man "coach").

The NRM was designed from the outset to be a London icon and a functional London bus. Hence it was designed in partnership with TfL to its precise requirements. They would then own (lease) and operate (tender) it for its entire working life, refurbishing and upgrading as necessary. This had not been attempted since the 1950s, and not at all under a tendering system.

The unit cost of the NRM was always going to go down, hopefully not just matching but falling below that of a "regular bus" (which at the time was still a conventional diesel with minimal London specific features). Pretty hard to do that if you cancel the project without having even supplied an eighth of the total London bus fleet or operated for even half of the very first tender to be awarded with NRMs.

I don't think people really understand how innovative this was at the time, a clear fifteen years ago or more. And they most definitely don't realise the money and effort Wrightbus put into completely re-imagining their entire business to give the UK a head start in hybrid buses or any other promising alternative. Hybrid being something many people at that time were still arguing might be a fad. Something to be quickly eclipsed by lng, hydrogen or full electrics. Now we know. They knew what they were doing. We failed them, not the other way around.

The plan was sound. Austerity and later Covid has completely derailed far bigger projects than the NRM. But there It is, ready and willing to help Khan get re-elected in a use hitherto unimagined by TfL, a SuperLoop. There are Hollywood movies and merchandise featuring this new London icon. The styling was even copied by ADL. Tourists do know. Hence the status of the original.

Hybrid technology was a much needed bridge to full electric. With Wrightbus 1.0 gone, the initiative has been lost to our European and Chinese competitors. The broken model of bus procurement is unchanged, despite the huge later focus on the broken model of operation that spawned it.

But the changes Wrightbus 1.0 made were so foresighted, unsurprising given it wasn't exactly their first turn as a London pioneer, Wrigbtbus 2.0 was well placed to rapidly recover. But not before proving there was still a market for bespoke buses designed in partnership with a municipal with higher goals than just minding every penny. Alas, it was only for 30 buses (Lothian tour fleet).

And so now it's ADL, the main beneficiary of Khan's decision, who apparently seem to be unable to answer the fundamental questions that still exist now the co-design/lifetime lease model has been dumped. How much is it and what does it weigh? And can I buy it directly from the folk who make half of it, cheaper?

An excellent summary and a refreshing change from some of the nonsense posted about them.

London Buses failed me this evening. My office is in Gray's Inn and I had to travel to Hampstead Heath for an important meeting (an AGM). The 46 was the only direct route which was the shortest route to get me from my office to Hampstead Heath and it was door to door, so the route was the fastest and easiest as returned by journey planners.

The route was advertised to run every approximately 12 minutes and I got to the bus stop at 19:13 (with scheduled departures 19:16, 19:28, 19:41 and 19:56) but I didn't see any buses for a long time (not even a 17), and I waited for 40 minutes before a 46 bus turned up.

The majority of the 46 route is served only by the 46, and the 46 runs the most direct route (i.e. the route if I am given a car or bike to drive) to my destination so I had no other choices.

After around 20 minutes at the bus stop, with the vehicle monitoring showing nothing nearby and the ETA showing nothing coming soon, I tried to call the operator (Metroline) but the hotline was not in operation.

As a result when I got to Hampstead Heath the meeting was nearly finished.

I'll make a complaint to TfL soon. In the future, how should I contact the control centre if the buses aren't running to schedule? Which phone number or Twitter account is the most effective?

I can certainly understand your frustration but this is often the reality of bus travel, presumably something somewhere had disrupted the service? It would certainly help if TfL could provide a bit more travel information via social media.

 

[Goldfish62]

An excellent summary and a refreshing change from some of the nonsense posted about them.

Depends on your point of view. They have many weaknesses compared with off-the-shelf which I'm not going to bother repeating. Given the choice neither TfL nor the operators would ever have had them, and direct ownership fits awkwardly with TfL's contracting model. You rest assured all that is not personal opinion and is most certainly not "nonsense".

 

[talldave]

An excellent summary and a refreshing change from some of the nonsense posted about them.

Indeed, but it seems on here we're not allowed to like them.

I'd better kit myself in body armour before I post my views of the ludicrous ugly monstrosity now running the 358 route!!

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed, but it seems on here we're not allowed to like them.

Dismissing actual facts and views of those who operate them as "nonsense" is what I object to.