London Buses Discussion

[Deerfold]

Said person, who I had to google as I'd never heard of them, is on the GLA payroll, not TfL.

And if they had been on the TfL payroll, that would be 0.0012% of the budget for 2023-4.

 

[Snow1964]

Updated document with the London Bus plan (with implementation dates).

Not going to quote as it is pdf version of what looks like PowerPoint slides, so needs to be viewed on reasonable size screen

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s21895/csopp-20240305-item5b-bus-action-plan-appx1%20final.pdf

There is also a new performance report, which shows average bus journey (including waiting time for bus), has now risen to 34.2minutes, and buses now averaging just 9.1mph

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s21883/csopp-20240305-item11b-Part%201-Customer-Service-Operational-Performance-Report.pdf

 

[Busaholic]

Said person, who I had to google as I'd never heard of them, is on the GLA payroll, not TfL.

They (singular) have an interesting history, shall we say. I'm googling nothing, but can well remember some of their screen appearances well before the internet age, which I'd imagine they will be hoping have long sunk without trace. A bit of a Camila Batmanghelidj type character, in that they'll be praised to the skies by some influential people while causing others to puzzle what they offer for such a salary.

 

[Goldfish62]

Updated document with the London Bus plan (with implementation dates).

Not going to quote as it is pdf version of what looks like PowerPoint slides, so needs to be viewed on reasonable size screen

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s21895/csopp-20240305-item5b-bus-action-plan-appx1%20final.pdf

There is also a new performance report, which shows average bus journey (including waiting time for bus), has now risen to 34.2minutes, and buses now averaging just 9.1mph

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s21883/csopp-20240305-item11b-Part%201-Customer-Service-Operational-Performance-Report.pdf

Thanks for posting these links. A lot of interesting contained in those updates.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Now that Superloop SL3 (Thamesmead to Bromley) started running last Saturday, Are the orbital Superloop routes all running now, or are there any still yet to start? (Sorry if this has already been covered - I'm new to this thread and 94 pages is too many posts to check back over )

I'm thinking about spending a day travelling on all of them from Thamesmead round to North Woolwich (Ignoring the three radial routes SL4, SL6 and SL8). I'm assuming that should be comfortably doable in day?

This is due to the trees on Knee Hill being low. Possibly also in the incline plays a part of it. When the 301 was introduced they tried to but couldn’t.

Agreed. Knee Hill is totally unsuitable for buses. Narrow, very steep, and very busy, and as you say with lots of overhanging trees - and no pavements so the trees are basically right next to the road in places. I'm not even sure the road is wide enough for two buses to comfortably pass each other. Going up New Road instead probably adds a minute or so to the journey, but is much more sensible.

 

[Busaholic]

Now that Superloop SL3 (Thamesmead to Bromley) started running last Saturday, Are the orbital Superloop routes all running now, or are there any still yet to start? (Sorry if this has already been covered - I'm new to this thread and 94 pages is too many posts to check back over )

I'm thinking about spending a day travelling on all of them from Thamesmead round to North Woolwich (Ignoring the three radial routes SL4, SL6 and SL8). I'm assuming that should be comfortably doable in day?

The SL2, the last leg of your proposed jaunt, starts on Saturday 9th March.

 

[London Trains]

The SL2, the last leg of your proposed jaunt, starts on Saturday 9th March.

I believe it starts on Saturday 2nd March.

 

[Edsmith]

I believe it starts on Saturday 2nd March.

Indeed this Saturday, March 2nd.

I would think Thamesmead to North Woolwich taking in the entire loop would be doable in 9-10 hours?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed this Saturday, March 2nd.

I would think Thamesmead to North Woolwich taking in the entire loop would be doable in 9-10 hours?

Thanks. Yeah, my very very rough guess, was, 7 buses, maybe an average full-route journey time of an hour each, plus waiting for an average of maybe 10 minutes for each one, would add up to about 8 hours. That gives a comfortable couple of hours if I've under-estimated, so if my guess is right, starting about 9am and finishing early evening seems doable. May need to wait another month to ensure the whole journey happens in daylight.

 

[Busaholic]

Thanks. Yeah, my very very rough guess, was, 7 buses, maybe an average full-route journey time of an hour each, plus waiting for an average of maybe 10 minutes for each one, would add up to about 8 hours. That gives a comfortable couple of hours if I've under-estimated, so if my guess is right, starting about 9am and finishing early evening seems doable. May need to wait another month to ensure the whole journey happens in daylight.

North Woolwich on a dark evening is not recommended for the faint-hearted. Don't even think of using the foot tunnel after the journey either. I had a very unpleasant experience there on a Saturday in 1984 and would never return, even if I was able to.

 

[talldave]

Thanks. Yeah, my very very rough guess, was, 7 buses, maybe an average full-route journey time of an hour each, plus waiting for an average of maybe 10 minutes for each one, would add up to about 8 hours. That gives a comfortable couple of hours if I've under-estimated, so if my guess is right, starting about 9am and finishing early evening seems doable. May need to wait another month to ensure the whole journey happens in daylight.

SL7 will take a couple of hours, especially if they're in "regulating the service" mode. And there's a few minutes walking in Croydon to complete the loop!!

 

[Bishopstone]

Sampled the SL3 today, Thamesmead to Bromley at lunch time.

Whilst far from packed, there was a reasonable level of custom for week one, busiest in the Bexleyheath area.

We kept moving throughout. The routing isn’t direct because of the need to serve various ‘via’ points, but on first impressions the roads have been well-chosen to avoid notorious snarl-ups.

There’s a long distance between the stops at Bexleyheath Library and Sidcup: if I lived in Bexley village I’d be miffed at the SL3 passing through, and if capacity is established I believe a stop there would be warranted.

End to end journey completed in 61 minutes. When I plugged the start and end points (but no via points) into a couple of route planners, timings of 40-45 minutes were indicated for travel by car/taxi. Considering the good value of the bus fare, I reckon the bus timings are acceptably competitive.

Finally, even after all these years, I can’t decide whether I like the New Routemaster buses. In many ways they feel a cut above the typical bus fleet, and I like the seats, but the constant noise of the heating/ventilation blower and the relatively poor visibility from the top deck do set them back, in my eyes (and ears).

 

[Edsmith]

Sampled the SL3 today, Thamesmead to Bromley at lunch time.

Whilst far from packed, there was a reasonable level of custom for week one, busiest in the Bexleyheath area.

We kept moving throughout. The routing isn’t direct because of the need to serve various ‘via’ points, but on first impressions the roads have been well-chosen to avoid notorious snarl-ups.

There’s a long distance between the stops at Bexleyheath Library and Sidcup: if I lived in Bexley village I’d be miffed at the SL3 passing through, and if capacity is established I believe a stop there would be warranted.

End to end journey completed in 61 minutes. When I plugged the start and end points (but no via points) into a couple of route planners, timings of 40-45 minutes were indicated for travel by car/taxi. Considering the good value of the bus fare, I reckon the bus timings are acceptably competitive.

Finally, even after all these years, I can’t decide whether I like the New Routemaster buses. In many ways they feel a cut above the typical bus fleet, and I like the seats, but the constant noise of the heating/ventilation blower and the relatively poor visibility from the top deck do set them back, in my eyes (and ears).

The problem with a stop in Bexley Village is that the SL3 only goes that way towards Bromley.

 

[Busaholic]

The problem with a stop in Bexley Village is that the SL3 only goes that way towards Bromley.

It's only supposed to be a temporary routeing too until Bexley Council get their act together to make a more direct routeing possible, according to the consultation report.

 

[Bishopstone]

The problem with a stop in Bexley Village is that the SL3 only goes that way towards Bromley.

I hadn’t realised the routing was so different between Bexleyheath and the Albany Park area. I’m now wondering why the Bromley-bound service travels via Bexley village at all: presumably there’s a good reason it can’t replicate the route of the Thamesmead-bound service.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I hadn’t realised the routing was so different between Bexleyheath and the Albany Park area. I’m now wondering why the Bromley-bound service travels via Bexley village at all: presumably there’s a good reason it can’t replicate the route of the Thamesmead-bound service.

The route map at https://tfl.gov.uk/bus/route/sl3/?redirect=true&direction=outbound actually shows two different routes between Bexleyheath and Sidcup when travelling towards Bromley (although only one route in the reverse direction). That made me wonder whether perhaps TfL have avoided putting any stops in that section so that the bus can take alternative routes depending on traffic conditions?

North Woolwich on a dark evening is not recommended for the faint-hearted. Don't even think of using the foot tunnel after the journey either. I had a very unpleasant experience there on a Saturday in 1984 and would never return, even if I was able to.

Oh dear sorry to hear that about your experience.

Until recently I used the foot tunnel a couple of times a week - sometimes at night - but cycling, not walking, because the quickest cycle route from Woolwich to Central London seemed to be to use the foot tunnel then use cycle superhighway CS3, which also largely avoids main roads. However, I've almost completely stopped using that route because the lift at the Northern end seems to have been permanently out of action for what feels like getting on for the last year, and there's only so many times you can lug a bike with panniers full of luggage up 120-ish steps before you get fed up

(In fact I've not used that tunnel for about a month now, so if the lift had been repaired in that time, I wouldn't have noticed. But frankly I'm not holding my breath).

 

[Edsmith]

I hadn’t realised the routing was so different between Bexleyheath and the Albany Park area. I’m now wondering why the Bromley-bound service travels via Bexley village at all: presumably there’s a good reason it can’t replicate the route of the Thamesmead-bound service.

At the moment Penhill Road is one way because of roadworks, I don't whether the SL3 will be rerouted that way towards Bromley when two way traffic is reinstated but there are suggestions that the right turn from Arbuthnott Lane into Blendon Road might be a problem. Whatever happens Bromley bound buses won't be able to use the short stretch of the A2 like Thamesmead bound do because there is no access from Upton Road onto the Londonbound A2.

The route map at https://tfl.gov.uk/bus/route/sl3/?redirect=true&direction=outbound actually shows two different routes between Bexleyheath and Sidcup when travelling towards Bromley (although only one route in the reverse direction). That made me wonder whether perhaps TfL have avoided putting any stops in that section so that the bus can take alternative routes depending on traffic conditions?



Oh dear sorry to hear that about your experience.

Until recently I used the foot tunnel a couple of times a week - sometimes at night - but cycling, not walking, because the quickest cycle route from Woolwich to Central London seemed to be to use the foot tunnel then use cycle superhighway CS3, which also largely avoids main roads. However, I've almost completely stopped using that route because the lift at the Northern end seems to have been permanently out of action for what feels like getting on for the last year, and there's only so many times you can lug a bike with panniers full of luggage up 120-ish steps before you get fed up

(In fact I've not used that tunnel for about a month now, so if the lift had been repaired in that time, I wouldn't have noticed. But frankly I'm not holding my breath).

I think that lift has been out of order for more than a year.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

At the moment Penhill Road is one way because of roadworks, I don't whether the SL3 will be rerouted that way towards Bromley when two way traffic is reinstated but there are suggestions that the right turn from Arbuthnott Lane into Blendon Road might be a problem. Whatever happens Bromley bound buses won't be able to use the short stretch of the A2 like Thamesmead bound do because there is no access from Upton Road onto the Londonbound A2.

Looking more closely at TfL's route map for the SL3, I've just realised that it shows Bromley-bound buses turning right from Arbuthnot Lane onto the A2 - which I'm pretty sure is impossible as there's no connecting road. So, contrary to my earlier post, I now think that must be a mistake on the map, and the intended route for Southbound buses is through Bexley. It's a bit of a roundabout route, but thinking about it, is probably sensible because it avoids the roads most likely to get congested.

I think that lift has been out of order for more than a year.

I wonder what's wrong with those lifts. The lift at the southern end frequently breaks down too, although at least it does normally get repaired fairly quickly. It's not that many years ago that both lifts were out of action for many months in order to undergo a complete refurbishment. It's starting to look like that refurbishment must've been a pretty shoddy job.

 

[ScotGG]

North Woolwich on a dark evening is not recommended for the faint-hearted. Don't even think of using the foot tunnel after the journey either. I had a very unpleasant experience there on a Saturday in 1984 and would never return, even if I was able to.

Quite a bit different now. Lots of housing either side of the river will make it safer. Some recently built, some now underway and some approved. Not as isolated.

In terms of SL3 heading near Bexley en route to Bromley that's just because of roadworks at the moment isn't it?

 

[Edsmith]

Looking more closely at TfL's route map for the SL3, I've just realised that it shows Bromley-bound buses turning right from Arbuthnot Lane onto the A2 - which I'm pretty sure is impossible as there's no connecting road. So, contrary to my earlier post, I now think that must be a mistake on the map, and the intended route for Southbound buses is through Bexley. It's a bit of a roundabout route, but thinking about it, is probably sensible because it avoids the roads most likely to get congested.



I wonder what's wrong with those lifts. The lift at the southern end frequently breaks down too, although at least it does normally get repaired fairly quickly. It's not that many years ago that both lifts were out of action for many months in order to undergo a complete refurbishment. It's starting to look like that refurbishment must've been a pretty shoddy job.

I think that must be a mistake, the only way Bromley bound buses could get onto the A2 is at the Black Prince interchange.

I don't know what's wrong with the lift but it's appalling that it's been out of order for so long and the ferry can't be relied upon so anybody unable to use the stairs is stuck.

 

[Geogregor]

Updated document with the London Bus plan (with implementation dates).

Not going to quote as it is pdf version of what looks like PowerPoint slides, so needs to be viewed on reasonable size screen

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s21895/csopp-20240305-item5b-bus-action-plan-appx1%20final.pdf

From that report, fascinating to see how the post-pandemic recovery during the weekday peaks is trailing recovery of the weekend loadings:

 

[baza585]

I think that lift has been out of order for more than a year.

I think that must be a mistake, the only way Bromley bound buses could get onto the A2 is at the Black Prince interchange.

I don't know what's wrong with the lift but it's appalling that it's been out of order for so long and the ferry can't be relied upon so anybody unable to use the stairs is stuck.

TfL for you. Sadiq Khan and Seb Dance too busy virtue-signalling to actually do something to improve transport in London, some might say.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

TfL for you. Sadiq Khan and Seb Dance too busy virtue-signalling to actually do something to improve transport in London, some might say.

I think the lifts concerned are the responsibility of Greenwich Borough Council, not TfL (The Northern one is in Newham, not Greenwich, but I was under the impression there was some agreement for Greenwich to have control of maintenance of both).

 

[Deerfold]

TfL for you. Sadiq Khan and Seb Dance too busy virtue-signalling to actually do something to improve transport in London, some might say.

Virtue signalling about what? Is it something that stops them doing their jobs? Is it actually either of their job? Is it something you've complained about?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

From that report, fascinating to see how the post-pandemic recovery during the weekday peaks is trailing recovery of the weekend loadings:

One thing that stands out for me is how little of a peak hour flow there is on buses compared to trains in London. Looks to me like the peak flows are only about 25% higher in passenger numbers than the Mon-Fri daytime flows - I would assume the difference for trains would be dramatically higher than that even post-Covid. And the fact that the evening peak flow for buses starts in the 3pm timeslot makes me suspect a lot of it is schoolchildren going to/from school. I guess people don't use buses to get to work nearly as much as they use trains (which would make sense if most 9-5 jobs are in zone 1, which is more conveniently reached by train from most of London)

 

[baza585]

Virtue signalling about what? Is it something that stops them doing their jobs? Is it actually either of their job? Is it something you've complained about?

I was merely trying to make the point that both Khan and Dance are very keen to be seen whenever there is good news to be announced but whenever things go wrong, as in this case, it always seems to be someone else's job, not theirs.

Yes I have complained to TfL about the lift. Got a holding response and nothing else. OK?

 

[Deerfold]

I guess people don't use buses to get to work nearly as much as they use trains (which would make sense if most 9-5 jobs are in zone 1, which is more conveniently reached by train from most of London)

Or more people using buses to get to work don't work 9-5.

I was merely trying to make the point that both Khan and Dance are very keen to be seen whenever there is good news to be announced but whenever things go wrong, as in this case, it always seems to be someone else's job, not theirs.

That sounds like most politicians, yes.

Yes I have complained to TfL about the lift. Got a holding response and nothing else. OK?

That's fine - I was going to suggest if you hadn't. Hope it gets sorted soon.

 

[ScotGG]

The lifts are the responsibility of Greenwich Council

 

[Busaholic]

The lifts are the responsibility of Greenwich Council

This probably dates from way back, prior to the formation of the GLC in 1965, when the Metropolitan Borough of Woolwich extended to the North shore of the River Thames at North Woolwich, thus the London County Council could run a Free Ferry service under an Act of Parliament between two places within its jurisdiction,instead of from London to Essex!

The London Borough of Greenwich is the successor to the Metropolitan Borough of Woolwich.

 

[Mark L]

Thanks for the reply, but I have not found any evidence to suggest that a second phase of routes is being considered.

Andy Lord, Transport Commissioner, mentioned it to the GLA Transport Committee last month. The full transcript will be on the GLA website in due course.