London Buses Discussion

[Snow1964]

Seems another bus route ( 273) is being handed back at the 3 year break point, this is the 3rd announcement of tender programme changes during March, following the 4 Sullivan routes announced mid March

The current contract for route 273 will now terminate early on 17th January 2025. The route will therefore be added to the 2024 - 2025 Tendering Programme in additional tranche 902A.
The Tendering Programme is revised as shown in the following tables:

The 4 new tranches are :
899A route 414.
902A route 273.
903A routes 298, W9.
912A routes 617, 629.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/uploads/forms/tender-programme-update-mar-2024.pdf

 

[ScotGG]

I see a new tender announced for SL2 with electric buses replacing new RTs from next year

New contract sees electric buses coming to Superloop route SL3 between Thamesmead and Bromley - Murky Depths

New electric buses are set to be introduced on Superloop route SL3 between Thamesmead and Bromley as a contract awarded from 2025

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

 

[PGAT]

I see a new tender announced for SL2 with electric buses replacing new RTs from next year

New contract sees electric buses coming to Superloop route SL3 between Thamesmead and Bromley - Murky Depths

New electric buses are set to be introduced on Superloop route SL3 between Thamesmead and Bromley as a contract awarded from 2025

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

*SL3 and also the 341

 

[Busaholic]

I see a new tender announced for SL2 with electric buses replacing new RTs from next year

New contract sees electric buses coming to Superloop route SL3 between Thamesmead and Bromley - Murky Depths

New electric buses are set to be introduced on Superloop route SL3 between Thamesmead and Bromley as a contract awarded from 2025

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

New RMs are bad enough, please spare us new RTs!

 

[Deerfold]

New RMs are bad enough, please spare us new RTs!

I did wonder where those had come from.

 

[Goldfish62]

New RMs are bad enough, please spare us new RTs!

LOL!

 

[Snow1964]

Abellio (Transport UK) have take over route 306 today (Fulham - Acton Vale), and are utilising new Wrightbus Electroliners

Was a Metroline route, who used hybrid double deckers

 

[MotCO]

I see a new tender announced for SL2 with electric buses replacing new RTs from next year

New contract sees electric buses coming to Superloop route SL3 between Thamesmead and Bromley - Murky Depths

New electric buses are set to be introduced on Superloop route SL3 between Thamesmead and Bromley as a contract awarded from 2025

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

I assume new RMs on the SL2 were used because they were spare. I wonder where they (and any other spare new RMs) will then be utilised, or are we seeing the beginning of the end? The new RMs entered service between 2011 and 2017.

 

[Snow1964]

I assume new RMs on the SL2 were used because they were spare. I wonder where they (and any other spare new RMs) will then be utilised, or are we seeing the beginning of the end? The new RMs entered service between 2011 and 2017.

Apart from the couple of withdrawals due to accident damage, and a few dozen that seem to be semi-permanently awaiting repair, most seem to be finding homes for now.

Some have migrated to school routes, and whilst a poor design for that, they do have the advantage of being spare and cheaper than buying or leasing an alternative. I could easily see about 150 of them ending their days on school routes, through to 2030 or 2032 (depending on funding for the final switch to all electric fleet)

TfL have for last couple of years awarded tenders for new routemaster routes that were fixed for 5 years (so many end 2028 to early 2030). I am guessing from about 2026 as routes come up to tender the oldest ones will be retired and replaced by later examples but there will be mass withdrawals as their routes finish existing contracts.

It is worth noting that TfL have also recently been issuing a number of 3 year fixed term tender awards with diesel powered buses. I guess this is cheaper short term, and/or it is a way of smoothing the introduction of electric bus numbers.

TfL has a bulge of bus fleet replacement coming up, about 3600 of 8600 (42%) buses were introduced 2015 - 2018. Rather more than the 620 per year on average if you base it on 14 years.

 

[dmncf]

I'm often surprised to see new Routemasters (LTs) employed on services such as rail replacement services on Sundays, at times when I had expected that operators would have plenty of other spare vehicles to chose from. I had thought that new Routemasters were less fuel efficient than other hybrid double deck vehicles, and I had expected operators would for financial reasons employ their most fuel efficient vehicles.

 

[Goldfish62]

Apart from the couple of withdrawals due to accident damage, and few dozen that seem to be semi-permanently awaiting repair, most seem to be finding homes for now.

Some have migrated to school routes, and whilst a poor design for that, do have advantage of being spare and cheaper than buying or leasing an alternative. I could easily see about 150 of them ending their days on school routes, through to 2030 or 2032 (depending on funding for final switch to all electric fleet)

TfL have for last couple of years awarded tenders for new routemaster routes that were fixed 5 years (so many end 2028 to early 2030). I am guessing from about 2026 as routes come up to tender the oldest ones will be retired and replaced by later examples but will be mass withdrawals as their routes finish existing contracts.

It is worth noting that TfL have also recently been issuing a number of 3 year fixed term tender awards with diesel powered buses. I guess this is cheaper short term, and/or it is a way of smoothing the introduction of electric bus numbers.

TfL has a bulge of bus fleet replacement coming up, about 3600 of 8600 (42%) buses were introduced 2015 - 2018. Rather more than the 620 per year on average if base it on 14 years.

I think you're essentially correct on all that.

The Borismasters have a projected 14 year life so in a couple of years time we should see the first withdrawals.

On short term contracts with diesels you're bang on in respect of smoothing the demand for electric buses.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

It will be interesting to see if there will be much of a second hand market for Borismasters. It purely subjective but I think they are an attractive looking vehicle but are hampered by three doors and an awkward lower deck layout. I think I might just have answered my own question!

 

[Deerfold]

It will be interesting to see if there will be much of a second hand market for Borismasters. It purely subjective but I think they are an attractive looking vehicle but are hampered by three doors and an awkward lower deck layout. I think I might just have answered my own question!

Given no-one outside London wanted them , despite many attempts to sell them and that TfL had to buy them as operators didn't want them, I'd be surprised if any are bought except for preservation or by enthusiasts unless they're very cheap.

They're really not very accessible with very few seats that don't require a step to access.

 

[Goldfish62]

Given no-one outside London wanted them , despite many attempts to sell them and that TfL had to buy them as operators didn't want them, I'd be surprised if any are bought except for preservation or by enthusiasts unless they're very cheap.

They're really not very accessible with very few seats that don't require a step to access.

And they're apparently a bit challenging from an engineering aspect. Plus they get through batteries quicker than standard hybrids.

 

[MotCO]

It will be interesting to see if there will be much of a second hand market for Borismasters. It purely subjective but I think they are an attractive looking vehicle but are hampered by three doors and an awkward lower deck layout. I think I might just have answered my own question!

But the upper deck is ok - good for sightseeing operations? Possibly convert to EV?

 

[Goldfish62]

But the upper deck is ok - good for sightseeing operations? Possibly convert to EV?

Given the shallow windows on the top deck, and especially the letterbox-like windscreen I wouldn't say they're ideal for sightseeing unless they were converted to full open toppers.

We don't yet know if there's a market for standard London hybrids yet, let alone Borismasters, because apart from early prototypes none have yet been withdrawn

 

[MasterSpenny]

We don't yet know if there's a market for standard London hybrids yet, let alone Borismasters, because apart from early prototypes none have yet been withdrawn

Haven’t there been some standard hybrid buses in London that have been withdrawn already because of fires?

 

[Goldfish62]

Haven’t there been some standard hybrid buses in London that have been withdrawn already because of fires?

I meant ones that have been withdrawn with potential for use elsewhere, not charred remains!

 

[Mikey C]

While the Borismaster design was flawed (though I really liked the open platform when in use), it never concerned me that they wouldn't have a second life once they finished life in London. 14 years is a decent life, and the extra cost of a bespoke bus wasn't massive when compared to the cost of rail projects.

 

[Edvid]

London United have retained the 33/N33 for another seven years with new electric single deckers. A notable result as it'll be RATP's first TfL EV order since the one they made for the 226 (which is finally fully electric now).

Two results from the big RATP Kingston throw-back tranche (routes 65/N65 and K5, due for renewal on 29 June) are still yet to be announced.

[N.B. I read the results on the Tangytango tender discussion section - link accessible to registered users only]

 

[Goldfish62]

London United have retained the 33/N33 for another seven years with new electric single deckers. A notable result as it'll be RATP's first TfL EV order since the one they made for the 226 (which is finally fully electric now).

It very much is notable.

Now we can speculate what they'll order given they've only had BYD to date.

 

[Bishopstone]

Took a ride on the revised 346 on Saturday, which subsumed the prior (and short) 346 routing (Upminster Station - Upminster Park Estate) and that of the demised 497 (Harold Wood station - Harold Hill), in March.

As a matter of trivia, Upminster Station rearcourt no longer has a TfL bus service scheduled to start/finish/layover there, though the turning bowl is used by the 370 in both directions on a double-run to the station, whilst the 248 can be curtailed there. I think it's at least 35 years, and potentially far longer, since Upminster Station was last without a timetabled LT bus route originating there.

Anyway, my sample journey was a game of two halves. There was a reasonable level of custom between Cranham and Upminster town centre, with a few staying-on up Hall Lane. Then I was on my own with the driver through the lanes up to Harold Wood, where business started to pick-up again as we joined the old 497 routing through the former hospital estate.

The twin logic of the route combination was to use resources more effectively, and to create a new frequent link between Harold Hill/Wood and Upminster which, on paper, should be quite popular. It was Grand National afternoon, so maybe the folk of Havering were all in Ladbrokes etc, but hopefully traffic will build over time. The Upminster secondary schools are a magnet across the borough, so at the least there should be decent school time custom.

 

[Busaholic]

As a matter of trivia, Upminster Station rearcourt no longer has a TfL bus service scheduled to start/finish/layover there, though the turning bowl is used by the 370 in both directions on a double-run to the station, whilst the 248 can be curtailed there. I think it's at least 35 years, and potentially far longer, since Upminster Station was last without a timetabled LT bus route originating there.

The 248 opo(!) service originated in 1934 between Upminster Station and Cranham, replacing the G3 after the creation of the London Passenger Transport Board. I'm fairly certain it had remained in use as a terminus continuously since then until last month. The 86A journeys terminating at Upminster, The Bell, were extended to the Station in 1948, which might have been the first time it had been served from the Romford and Hornchurch direction, though without further research I can't be sure.

 

[Bishopstone]

The 248 opo(!) service originated in 1934 between Upminster Station and Cranham, replacing the G3 after the creation of the London Passenger Transport Board. I'm fairly certain it had remained in use as a terminus continuously since then until last month. The 86A journeys terminating at Upminster, The Bell, were extended to the Station in 1948, which might have been the first time it had been served from the Romford and Hornchurch direction, though without further research I can't be sure.

My era of vagueness is the 80s, around the time of tendering but before the 346 route number was established. I recall routes heading to Corbets Tey and/or Cranham (via St Mary's Lane), from the station, with numbers 248A, 246/246A and 446, at various times. EnsignBus had some of these contracts and supplied exotica from their fleet to run them! The situation was unsettled for a few years, and whilst my recollection is that there was always a route (or two) starting from the station, I wouldn't put it more confidently than that without checking.

Anyhow, thanks for backing my general hypothesis!

 

[Busaholic]

My era of vagueness is the 80s, around the time of tendering but before the 346 route number was established. I recall routes heading to Corbets Tey and/or Cranham (via St Mary's Lane), from the station, with numbers 248A, 246/246A and 446, at various times. EnsignBus had some of these contracts and supplied exotica from their fleet to run them! The situation was unsettled for a few years, and whilst my recollection is that there was always a route (or two) starting from the station, I wouldn't put it more confidently than that without checking.

Anyhow, thanks for backing my general hypothesis!

There may have been a period of about two years between late 1986, following the withdrawal of the 248A, and late 1988, with the introduction of the 446, that no route had its permanent terminus there, although I'm not sure about the Sunday 248s during this time. In any case I'd reckon there was a strong possibility that scheduled weekday journeys on the 248 terminated there, before the current obsession with insisting on the theoretical full-route scheduling started! Without sight of a timetable it's impossible to be certain.

 

[Andrew Holland]

Well, this interested me, and wasn't a massive surprise: https://www.mylondon.news/news/transport/new-london-bus-company-established-29002732

If it happens, I wonder where operations would be based for initial services and what services might go to it. Feels like an operator of last resort with bells on. Could ETB rise from the ashes again or does GoAhead own that name now also?

Given I moved to GM in 2005, can just see Manchester doing likewise also given that TfGM already owns the garages, would likely be a bit easier to do up here...

 

[Goldfish62]

Well, this interested me, and wasn't a massive surprise: https://www.mylondon.news/news/transport/new-london-bus-company-established-29002732

If it happens, I wonder where operations would be based for initial services and what services might go to it. Feels like an operator of last resort with bells on. Could ETB rise from the ashes again or does GoAhead own that name now also?

Given I moved to GM in 2005, can just see Manchester doing likewise also given that TfGM already owns the garages, would likely be a bit easier to do up here...

I'd have preferred to hear a pledge for a massive expansion of bus priority throughout London and new controls on roadworks, but maybe he's yet to announce all that....

 

[Sussexwatch]

My era of vagueness is the 80s, around the time of tendering but before the 346 route number was established. I recall routes heading to Corbets Tey and/or Cranham (via St Mary's Lane), from the station, with numbers 248A, 246/246A and 446, at various times. EnsignBus had some of these contracts and supplied exotica from their fleet to run them! The situation was unsettled for a few years, and whilst my recollection is that there was always a route (or two) starting from the station, I wouldn't put it more confidently than that without checking.

Anyhow, thanks for backing my general hypothesis!

Thanks, as an Upminster lad, albeit many years ago, I remember an Eastern National service, 253 which began in 1963 from Upminster Station to Brentwood and Hutton via Warley (probably to coincide with the opening of Fords head office there). It only lasted a few years which is a shame as it was a useful link. The 2 hour frequency probably wasn't attractive enough.

I used the 346 recently from Harold Wood Station to Upminster on a mid-morning journey. There was only one other passenger along Hall Lane but several more were waiting at Upminster Station towards St Mary's Lane. However I saw a 346 towards Harold Wood leaving Upminster station with around 10-12 so maybe things are picking up. Another piece of trivia is that the extended 346 recreates the original RLH 248 route between Cranham and Hall Lane via St Mary's Lane and Upminster Station, just missing out the last stop in Avon Road. It had a running time of just 11 minutes but buses often carried full loads in the peaks.

 

[MotCO]

Well, this interested me, and wasn't a massive surprise: https://www.mylondon.news/news/transport/new-london-bus-company-established-29002732

If it happens, I wonder where operations would be based for initial services and what services might go to it. Feels like an operator of last resort with bells on. Could ETB rise from the ashes again or does GoAhead own that name now also?

Given I moved to GM in 2005, can just see Manchester doing likewise also given that TfGM already owns the garages, would likely be a bit easier to do up here...

To comply with Forum rules, I attach the full article below:

Sadiq Khan has pledged to establish a new London Bus Company to bring the city's routes back into public ownership for the first time in 30 years. The bold plan could see the vast majority of London's 675 bus routes gradually taken out of the hands of private companies for the first time since 1994.


Sadiq Khan announced the proposal on Tuesday morning (April 16), declaring it a "next-generation transport programme", if he is re-elected on May 2. The Labour mayor will work to establish the company alongside a future Labour government.



Currently, the bus network is operated by 16 privately-run bus companies. But under Sadiq's new policy, once contracts on routes came to an end, they would be reviewed to decide whether to bring them under the new public operator.





The current mayor said the plan would offer "better value for money, consistency and service to all Londoners and visitors to the city and would also provide stability and certainty if operators were to fail during their existing contracts".


The announcement follows another by shadow Transport Secretary Louise Haigh that a future Labour administration would 'remove the Tory government's ban on publicly owned bus companies'. Currently, the Bus Services Act 2017, while allowing some re-regulation for regions outside London, puts obstacles in the way of creating a publicly owned bus operator.

​

Other next-generation projects that Sadiq has also pledged to carry on making the 'overwhelming case' for, if re-elected, are:

• The West London Orbital, an 11-mile extension to the London Overground network running from Hounslow to Hendon and West Hampstead
• The extension of the DLR to Thamesmead
• The extension of the Bakerloo line from Elephant & Castle to Lewisham, and a second phase extending to Hayes and Beckenham Junction
• Crossrail 2, running from Hertfordshire to Surrey and linking north and south London

Earlier this month, Sadiq announced plans for a Superloop-style 'Bakerloop' express bus route, kitted out in brown Bakerloo line livery, which will track the route of the proposed Bakerloo line extension while work on it progresses. Some critics branded the proposal a 'permanent rail replacement service' - Sadiq in term labelled them 'cynics'.

If the Mayor will only take some routes into direct operation, where are the garages where they will operate from? If existing operators lose some routes, their overheads will increase which need to be recovered by higher contract values elsewhere. Not one of his best ideas.

 

[johncrossley]

Renationalising is unnecessary and counter-productive. I can see the point of setting up a rival publicly owned company to bid for contracts against the private operators if the worry is that we are not getting value for money.