London buses have become cashless

[ModernRailways]

My friends went to get the 507 with me from Victoria tonight, for which you must buy a ticket before boarding now. However, the machine will take your money and not produce a ticket. When I asked a member of staff, he said the machine shouldn't even be there anymore, they're being taken out hence why it wouldn't produce a ticket. Rather frustrating and contradictory. Can't pay cash for a ticket on board because they're already cashless, but can't pay cash at a machine because they're being taken out. Effectively, you could only board if you had Oyster or Travelcard.

It's been that way for a while in Zone 1/2. Most stops require you purchase a ticket/have an Oyster before boarding so as not to hold buses up in traffic for too long.

 

[user15681]

It's been that way for a while in Zone 1/2. Most stops require you purchase a ticket/have an Oyster before boarding so as not to hold buses up in traffic for too long.

I know you have to purchase a ticket before boarding, as you say it's been that way for a while. But the TfL member of staff said the machines allowing you to purchase a ticket were being withdrawn...

 

[Deerfold]

It's been that way for a while in Zone 1/2. Most stops require you purchase a ticket/have an Oyster before boarding so as not to hold buses up in traffic for too long.

It's only part of Zone 1.

 

[transmanche]

It's only part of Zone 1.

Basically the West End, plus routes W7 (the trial route) and 507/521 (as they still have 'free boarding', a legacy of being a bendy bus).

And the ticket machines are rapidly being removed, so where there's no ticket machine you can (until the summer) still pay on board.

I suspect the TfL person knew they are being removed; but where they are still they are still in operation they're meant to be used.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If you can't afford to have £20 less than you currently do then you need to look seriously at your finances.

£30 is over half my weekly budget for food. On top of the £119 a month I give Boris for my Z1-3 travelcard, it's a lot of money.

Given that the most I will pay for a single off-peak tube journey is about £1.20, I fail to see why either the auto top up threshold or amount needs to be so high.

I do have a contactless debit card now, the Halifax agreed to send me one, but they told me they are only sending them to people in their "trial area". This part of London is in that trial area; where I used to live in Newcastle is apparently not.

 

[a729]

A funny coincidence I saw a passenger try to pay his fare on the bus today but did not have enough change. I think I have seen people pay by cash about 2-3 times in the past year.

A terrible move by TfL

£30 is over half my weekly budget for food. On top of the £119 a month I give Boris for my Z1-3 travelcard, it's a lot of money.

Given that the most I will pay for a single off-peak tube journey is about £1.20, I fail to see why either the auto top up threshold or amount needs to be so high.

I do have a contactless debit card now, the Halifax agreed to send me one, but they told me they are only sending them to people in their "trial area". This part of London is in that trial area; where I used to live in Newcastle is apparently not.

I read a report by TfL saying London and the South East are the priority for CPC by banks!

If you can't afford to have £20 less than you currently do then you need to look seriously at your finances.

That's rather presumptuous indeed with wages failing to keep up with living costs!

Not if you're in negative balance (even by a few pence) from going outside your boundaries before.

I have used an oyster with a negative balance on the buses but I had a Monthly bus pass* , I haven't had a travelcard on my oyster before though!

* Didn't realise till I used the tube a few days later , I was about -15p!
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As I understand it, one of the things you miss out on is the ability to find out how much money is on your card (other than taking careful note of what flashes up when you touch it on a reader), and therefore to know whether you've been charged correctly (maybe not an issue on a simple bus journey, but I've seen plenty of threads about problems with more complicated journeys).

On the tube when overcharging happens quite regularly TfL have introduced some measures to fix such as 'automatic refunds' for commonly made journeys that go awry for some reason.
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The time I went into negative when I had a 7 day travelcard because I used it outside the zones, it worked fine on buses but didn't work at stations without topping up. This is with a 18+ Student Oyster though. When I had a 11-15 or 16+ one going into negative would stop it working on buses even though they were free.

I noticed TfL has changed things -the free discount is now added as a bus season ticket rather than charging 0p for bus journeys, meaning under-18s with an oyster can still travel on the bus with a negative balance!

 

[Mike395]

I noticed TfL has changed things -the free discount is now added as a bus season ticket rather than charging 0p for bus journeys, meaning under-18s with an oyster can still travel on the bus with a negative balance!

Not the case (not with a normal TC is any case) - a negative balance invalidates any Travelcard loaded onto Oyster

 

[a729]

Not the case (not with a normal TC is any case) - a negative balance invalidates any Travelcard loaded onto Oyster

I was talking about a season bus pass which is different to a travelcard!

Here's proof through my Oyster history !

 

[a729]

That's nothing to do with what is or is not legal tender. You can't use £20 or £50 notes on most buses already.

Legal tender has a very narrow definition, which isn't what most people think it it. Legal tender is about the settlement of a (pre-existing) debt.

At least people will be able to pay UFNs with cash!

 

[MikeWh]

Not the case (not with a normal TC is any case) - a negative balance invalidates any Travelcard loaded onto Oyster

I too can confirm that children with negative balances can use buses without issue. My own son made several journeys to/from school after a power failure at Abbey Wood left him with minus 75p.

 

[Mike395]

I stand corrected - good news (and does make sense, the last thing TfL need is any negative press about children unable to get home as they were -10p or similar!)

 

[a729]

I stand corrected - good news (and does make sense, the last thing TfL need is any negative press about children unable to get home as they were -10p or similar!)

In the past this was an issue! I once had a balance of -50p in 2009 I think , because I had exceeded maximum journey time and my oyster wasn't even working on the bus- I had the 11-15 oyster then! However things have been changed in recent years
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I too can confirm that children with negative balances can use buses without issue. My own son made several journeys to/from school after a power failure at Abbey Wood left him with minus 75p.

Adults with a season bus pass can use buses with a negative balance as well!
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My wife used to be a Civil Servant.

When claiming expenses for travel she queried which category bus tickets should be put in and was told to put them in with train tickets but also that no-one in her department had ever claimed for bus tickets before (taxis being more usual).

She wouldn't catch the bus regardless but if there was one from the station to where she was going with a reasonable frequency or a short wait time she would.

No wonder the public finances are so poor if civil servants claim for taxis when buses will do!
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Running out of credit on your Oyster card will give you access to one more bus journey. Is that not enough?

TfL has deliberately broken up a few night buses- such as the N159 which has been replaced by 3 night buses!
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And from next year, lots of tube stations will be open all night at weekends...

What if you live in South London? Croydon, Bromley, etc...
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One question which should probably be answered is, out of all the bus journeys between 10:00pm and 6:00am how many pay cash?

It's all well and good saying 1% pay cash, but how many of those 1% pay cash at night? I suspect it is very minimal. You may find that it will only affect a few people at night, whereas it's daytime passengers who use cash most.

I think it's about 10%

 

[bb21]

I was talking about a season bus pass which is different to a travelcard!

Here's proof through my Oyster history !

What is Route 2X? Is that something during the Notting Hill Carnival?

 

[user15681]

What is Route 2X? Is that something during the Notting Hill Carnival?

Yes the 2X is a Notting Hill special of route 2. There are a few others I believe too, like the 36X.

 

[a729]

What is Route 2X? Is that something during the Notting Hill Carnival?

Yes it runs from Brixton-Hyde Park then directly to Harrow Road

 

[moogal]

One question which should probably be answered is, out of all the bus journeys between 10:00pm and 6:00am how many pay cash?

It's all well and good saying 1% pay cash, but how many of those 1% pay cash at night? I suspect it is very minimal. You may find that it will only affect a few people at night, whereas it's daytime passengers who use cash most.

Actually from some figures I read when this first came out (can't remember where, annoyingly) the proportion of cash usage on nightbuses was actually higher than during the day. This would square with my own observations - the most common scenario seems to be that someone taps their Oyster, then finds it's out of credit and pays a cash fare instead. (As that's about their only reasonable option, since trying to find somewhere to top up at 2am isn't fun)

Now I know people on here will moan and grumble that they should have topped it up earlier, etc, but not everyone is perfect - people are fallible, and removing the safety net of being able to pay isn't exactly customer-friendly.

 

[ModernRailways]

Actually from some figures I read when this first came out (can't remember where, annoyingly) the proportion of cash usage on nightbuses was actually higher than during the day. This would square with my own observations - the most common scenario seems to be that someone taps their Oyster, then finds it's out of credit and pays a cash fare instead. (As that's about their only reasonable option, since trying to find somewhere to top up at 2am isn't fun)

Now I know people on here will moan and grumble that they should have topped it up earlier, etc, but not everyone is perfect - people are fallible, and removing the safety net of being able to pay isn't exactly customer-friendly.

A lot of people don't bother to even check how much is on their Oyster and it's not uncommon to have been overcharged for a journey. Maybe it should be a case of any journey between 00:00 and 04:45 (or last bus if the last bus departs before 00:00) is allowed and charged, but you will go into negative balance. Effectively, this means free transport on buses between those hours, but you will go into a negative balance and you can't go under a £-4 balance.

The problem then arises with those who don't use Oyster. What do you do with them? I think these people are the main problem, those passengers without Oyster cards on them will essentially have no way of getting home, those with an Oyster can 'owe' TfL and then top-up the next day.

 

[transmanche]

The problem then arises with those who don't use Oyster. What do you do with them? I think these people are the main problem, those passengers without Oyster cards on them will essentially have no way of getting home, those with an Oyster can 'owe' TfL and then top-up the next day.

Well for starters, they could plan ahead and get an Oyster card. (52 million of them have been issued in the past 11 years and TfL is now the largest issuer of contactless cards in Europe.) Or they can use a CPC. Or a paper day Travelcard.

Next year, much of the weekend night bus travel from central London will be displaced by 24-hour tube services on the Central, Jubilee, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria lines. And those not directly served by the 'night tube' will benefit by having somewhere they know they can obtain and top-up Oyster cards - the tube stations that will remain open all night.

 

[34D]

Is it still possible to get a paper one day bus pass (the roadside TVM's used to sell them).

The point about the tube is an interesting one: do we expect to see wholesale nightbus changes on Fri and Sat nights?

 

[Deerfold]

Is it still possible to get a paper one day bus pass (the roadside TVM's used to sell them).

The point about the tube is an interesting one: do we expect to see wholesale nightbus changes on Fri and Sat nights?

There will be some reductions in frequency on routes like the 18bph N29 but should be additional services linking at some of the tube stations.

 

[transmanche]

Is it still possible to get a paper one day bus pass (the roadside TVM's used to sell them).

No, that's long gone.

 

[ModernRailways]

Well for starters, they could plan ahead and get an Oyster card. (52 million of them have been issued in the past 11 years and TfL is now the largest issuer of contactless cards in Europe.) Or they can use a CPC. Or a paper day Travelcard.

Next year, much of the weekend night bus travel from central London will be displaced by 24-hour tube services on the Central, Jubilee, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria lines. And those not directly served by the 'night tube' will benefit by having somewhere they know they can obtain and top-up Oyster cards - the tube stations that will remain open all night.

I agree, planning ahead would be best, but isn't always practical. What if your Oyster gets lost/stolen?

Does anyone know what the main reason is for those who pay cash not having Oyster?

The Night tube will do a lot of favours as it will mean it's easier to top up etc. But, what about those who aren't next to a 24 hour tube stop? I presume most cash fares are actually taken in suburbs and not in the centre, so what happens then. I think most people would be welcoming cashless buses if there wasn't this uncertainty about 'what if's?'.

There has to be a way that allows people to travel, and as I say if TfL can manage that then pretty much everybody will support cashless buses.

 

[transmanche]

But, what about those who aren't next to a 24 hour tube stop?

What if, what if, what if...

Every time a solution is found which reduces the number of people who "need" to pay in cash, yet another "what if" scenario that is dragged up which might affect an ever-decreasing number of people.

The range of options to ensure you can travel is already taken up by over 99% of passengers: namely having an Oyster card, paper Travelcard, Freedom Pass, ENCTS pass, Contactless Payment Card. Those with Oyster cards can use auto top-up to ensure they always have sufficient PAYG credit. Those who don't use auto top-up can still top-up at any 24-hour Oyster ticket stops or 24-hour tube stations. Plus, TfL will introduce a "one more bus journey" feature for those who have no PAYG credit left on their Oyster card. Plus after all that, vulnerable passengers will be able to travel if they accept a UFN.

So if after all that, someone still finds themselves with cash but without the means to get on a bus, then shock, horror... they might have to walk. Or get a cab.

 

[radamfi]

Actually from some figures I read when this first came out (can't remember where, annoyingly) the proportion of cash usage on nightbuses was actually higher than during the day. This would square with my own observations - the most common scenario seems to be that someone taps their Oyster, then finds it's out of credit and pays a cash fare instead. (As that's about their only reasonable option, since trying to find somewhere to top up at 2am isn't fun)

Now I know people on here will moan and grumble that they should have topped it up earlier, etc, but not everyone is perfect - people are fallible, and removing the safety net of being able to pay isn't exactly customer-friendly.

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2013/ending-cash-fares-buses-daniels-dream-electric-beeps/

In this article it mentions the level of cash usage in circumstances where you might expect more people to pay by cash. It turns out that cash usage on night buses is about 2%. Also, usage on routes crossing the Greater London boundary is only 2%. In central London, where there are more tourists, the percentage is nearer to 1%, only slightly more than average.

There are lots of places where you cannot buy a ticket from the driver, but in such places the driver doesn't check the tickets. I can't think of anywhere where the driver check tickets, but cannot issue one.

 

[mrmartin]

What if, what if, what if...

Every time a solution is found which reduces the number of people who "need" to pay in cash, yet another "what if" scenario that is dragged up which might affect an ever-decreasing number of people.

The range of options to ensure you can travel is already taken up by over 99% of passengers: namely having an Oyster card, paper Travelcard, Freedom Pass, ENCTS pass, Contactless Payment Card. Those with Oyster cards can use auto top-up to ensure they always have sufficient PAYG credit. Those who don't use auto top-up can still top-up at any 24-hour Oyster ticket stops or 24-hour tube stations. Plus, TfL will introduce a "one more bus journey" feature for those who have no PAYG credit left on their Oyster card. Plus after all that, vulnerable passengers will be able to travel if they accept a UFN.

So if after all that, someone still finds themselves with cash but without the means to get on a bus, then shock, horror... they might have to walk. Or get a cab.

There's no 24 hour oyster ticket shops. They shut down at about 11.30pm. I think TfL should of rectified this before pressing ahead. Perhaps they will with the night tube system.

 

[a729]

There's no 24 hour oyster ticket shops. They shut down at about 11.30pm. I think TfL should of rectified this before pressing ahead. Perhaps they will with the night tube system.

Maybe but I doubt it'll help people in Bromley at 2am lol!

 

[jon0844]

If there's a way to allow 'one more journey' and then the option of a UFN, I really think everything is covered.

And then there's also the discretion of the driver, whereby I am sure a lot of people very late at night will just be waved through anyway.

 

[radamfi]

Confirmation that the change will happen on 6 July:

http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2014-04-09/london-buses-to-be-cash-free-from-july-6/

 

[Deerfold]

Confirmation that the change will happen on 6 July:

http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2014-04-09/london-buses-to-be-cash-free-from-july-6/

Or for a version that doesn't claim that 99% of passengers use Oyster...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-26008726

 

[bb21]

So basically they haven't taken any of the concerns onboard. What a surprise!