London buses have become cashless

[transmanche]

So basically they haven't taken any of the concerns onboard. What a surprise!

Yes they have. The "one extra journey" function, the need for more Oyster ticket stops in outer London (where there may not be a convenient station) and the new guidance for drivers on how to deal with vulnerable passengers are all outcomes of the consultation process.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Can they start by ensuring every railway station in London has a ticket machine, or some other way of topping up an Oyster card?

 

[transmanche]

Can they start by ensuring every railway station in London has a ticket machine, or some other way of topping up an Oyster card?

Well as far as I'm aware, every station that TfL controls has a ticket machine which can top-up Oyster cards. They probably can't force the TOCs to fit suitable machines at every station, but some TOCs ticket machines (such as all FCC ones within the Oyster PAYG area) can top-up Oyster PAYG credit.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Of course they can't, but I'd still be happier if they'd either remove the prohibition on having an extra journey for people with negative balances, or otherwise insist that any location one can attain a negative balance (i.e. all stations) also has a way of fixing said negative balance (i.e. a ticket machine), paying the TOCs for the ticket machines if necessary (it's TfL that makes the saving on cash handling)

 

[bb21]

Yes they have. The "one extra journey" function, the need for more Oyster ticket stops in outer London (where there may not be a convenient station) and the new guidance for drivers on how to deal with vulnerable passengers are all outcomes of the consultation process.

No, they haven't.

It had been pointed out to them that the "one extra journey" function may not be sufficient but nothing was done to put an alternative arrangement in place.

 

[transmanche]

No, they haven't.

It had been pointed out to them that the "one extra journey" function may not be sufficient but nothing was done to put an alternative arrangement in place.

Well if it were "two extra journeys" then some people would complain that still wasn't enough either. From reading the consultation, they've considered the questions, but feel that the review of Oyster ticket stops and revised 'vulnerable person' policy are sufficient.

Just because they don't agree with people's objections doesn't mean they've not been properly considered.

 

[bb21]

That is why the withdrawal of the facility to pay cash onboard should not go ahead (at least not between say 2300 and 0700), even if a premium is charged on cash fares, eg. £3/4, perhaps including one transfer within 90 minutes or unlimited transfers within 120 considering the service frequency at that time of the night.

And before you say that no one makes long journeys at night, I have had to do them before, for example, Queen's Park to Bromley at 0100.

As to the review of ticket shops, how many are going to be open at 0200? That proposal is missing the point of the objections entirely. They should be looking at it in terms of improving the coverage anyway, rather than spinning it as some sort of (non-)solution to the issues people have raised.

As to "vulnerable person", would a stranded 25-year-old male be classed as one?

 

[transmanche]

That is why the withdrawal of the facility to pay cash onboard should not go ahead (at least not between say 2300 and 0700), even if a premium is charged on cash fares, eg. £3/4, perhaps including one transfer within 90 minutes or unlimited transfers within 120 considering the service frequency at that time of the night.

One thing you'll have noticed about buses in London is that service frequencies remain good right until the last service on day routes - and the last bus can sometimes be after 01:00. Then there are the night and 24-hour routes...

And before you say that no one makes long journeys at night, I have had to do them before, for example, Queen's Park to Bromley at 0100.

So a bit of forward planning to make sure you had sufficient PAYG credit was your responsibility before making such a long journey...

As to the review of ticket shops, how many are going to be open at 0200? That proposal is missing the point of the objections entirely.

Well by next year there'll be plenty of extra ones open at weekends in central London - which is where most night bus passengers start their journey

They should be looking at it in terms of improving the coverage anyway, rather than spinning it as some sort of (non-)solution to the issues people have raised.[/QUOTE[That is exactly what they are doing!

As to "vulnerable person", would a stranded 25-year-old male be classed as one?

If fit and healthy then a bit of a walk won't do him any harm.

 

[ModernRailways]

So a bit of forward planning to make sure you had sufficient PAYG credit was your responsibility before making such a long journey...

Whilst that would help, you could then argue how much extra is required? Say you get the Tube into town for a night out, but the system doesn't work properly so you get charged a maximum fare. You originally started with £10 on the card, you are already down to £3. You start to head home and because the tube is closed now, you have to take 2 night buses. Obviously with that £3 you would just be able to make a journey, but what happens if someone only has £8.90 for a Travelcard, but then gets stung by a full fare because the system failed.

Oyster doesn't work. Every single time I've been to London I've been charged incorrectly. Thankfully, at one point when I went into negative balance I was at Kings Cross for my train, but had that of happened elsewhere it could have meant me paying another £10 onto my Oyster which would have left me £10 short in my pocket.

I'm all for cashless, but there needs to be another system in place other than Oyster and contactless bank card. Then there is the fact of, what happens if my Oyster gets nicked whilst I'm out? How do I get home then?

 

[Greenback]

Oyster does work on the whole, but it's impossible to have a system that is 100% reliable, and can cover all eventualities without inconveniencing the cardholder in some way.

This is why I have concerns about smartcards supposedly being the solution to all ticketing problems!

 

[transmanche]

Whilst that would help, you could then argue how much extra is required? Say you get the Tube into town for a night out, but the system doesn't work

Ah, the 'what-if' argument. 'What-if' a series of unconnected and increasingly unlikely things all happen in the correct sequence on the same day.

Oyster doesn't work. Every single time I've been to London I've been charged incorrectly.

Strange that. I've had an Oyster card for ten years and in that time I've only been charged "incorrectly" once. (Two maximum fares for exceeding the maximum journey time, when I'd experienced delays on both the DLR and a service outage on the Jubilee line, so I'd spent a fair bit of time just having a chat with a friend whilst stuck at Canning Town on a pleasant summer's evening. Got it quickly refunded via the Oyster website.) If it happens to you every time, then you're probably doing something wrong/unusual.

Then there is the fact of, what happens if my Oyster gets nicked whilst I'm out? How do I get home then?

What happens if your cash gets nicked when your out?

 

[Deerfold]

Well by next year there'll be plenty of extra ones open at weekends in central London - which is where most night bus passengers start their journey

I think that's true on Friday and Saturday nights but not on other days where most passengers are using night buses to get to work - usually low paid work (so probably just the sort of people to not have a high balance on their card or have Oyster top-up).

 

[transmanche]

I think that's true on Friday and Saturday nights but not on other days where most passengers are using night buses to get to work - usually low paid work (so probably just the sort of people to not have a high balance on their card or have Oyster top-up).

But then they're obviously not late-night revellers who've had one too many - and can thus be organised enough to ensure they have topped-up with sufficient credit before heading off to work.

 

[Deerfold]

But then they're obviously not late-night revellers who've had one too many - and can thus be organised enough to ensure they have topped-up with sufficient credit before heading off to work.

Can late night revellers not be organised to top up before their night out? I know when I have a night out I usually keep enough money for the bus or taxi in a specific pocket to ensure I don't spend it unless I have a pass.

These people will be travelling at a time before many of the top-up shops open.

 

[transmanche]

Can late night revellers not be organised to top up before their night out?

I think they can. But some people here seem to think that late-night travellers are unable to organise themselves sufficiently to have an Oyster card with sufficient credit, or a contactless payment card.

 

[a729]

One thing you'll have noticed about buses in London is that service frequencies remain good right until the last service on day routes - and the last bus can sometimes be after 01:00. Then there are the night and 24-hour routes...

So a bit of forward planning to make sure you had sufficient PAYG credit was your responsibility before making such a long journey...

TfL are removing one type of forward planning..having enough for the cash fare

Well by next year there'll be plenty of extra ones open at weekends in central London - which is where most night bus passengers start their journey

They should be looking at it in terms of improving the coverage anyway, rather than spinning it as some sort of (non-)solution to the issues people have raised.[/QUOTE[That is exactly what they are doing!]

If fit and healthy then a bit of a walk won't do him any harm.

A walk down the rougher parts of London can too often mean risking walking into harms way!
Still what if you live in Uxbridge and are left stranded at say Holland park at night! That's a LONG walk and would cost an awful lot in a taxi at night time!

 

[transmanche]

Still what if you live in Uxbridge and are left stranded at say Holland park at night! That's a LONG walk and would cost an awful lot in a taxi at night time!

And I bet if you did that once, you'd make damn sure you always had sufficient credit in the future!

 

[a729]

Well if it were "two extra journeys" then some people would complain that still wasn't enough either. From reading the consultation, they've considered the questions, but feel that the review of Oyster ticket stops and revised 'vulnerable person' policy are sufficient.

Just because they don't agree with people's objections doesn't mean they've not been properly considered.

TfL split the N159 back in 2009 when you only needed 1 night bus to go from Marble Arch to New Addington- you know need 3!

 

[Robertj21a]

People will always look for the 0.00001% peculiarity that might stop new things happening. Oyster use is already extremely high and it sounds like TfL have covered the vast majority of issues that could arise.

Given how overloaded many of their services are it might not do some of their potential passengers any harm to walk a mile or two !

Robert

 

[jon0844]

TfL are removing one type of forward planning..having enough for the cash fare

Well by next year there'll be plenty of extra ones open at weekends in central London - which is where most night bus passengers start their journey

What about allowing pubs and clubs to top up Oyster cards? For many that will be the last place before trying to get a night bus!

 

[bb21]

Ah, the 'what-if' argument. 'What-if' a series of unconnected and increasingly unlikely things all happen in the correct sequence on the same day.

You seem to deliberately miss the point so I am not going to repeat my arguments.

You will find that a lot of the time unexpected incidents happen due to a combination of extremely unlikely events. The issues I addressed (through no fault of the passengers themselves, eg. unexpected OSI's) are totally preventable, so TfL have a responsibility to ensure that they are addressed.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[howittpie]

Having just read through this thread some peoples attitudes intrigue me. Public transport is supposed to be inclusive for all members of society the scrapping of cash fares is certainly not. There are many emergencies that may mean people may need to pay cash fares.

This is a real life example, I am a live in carer for an elderly lady which means I am not well off I do not have a contactless payment card and cannot afford the auto top up. Recently she was rushed into hospital in the middle of the evening after the usual long wait in casualty she was admitted to a ward in the early hours of the morning. Due to her being upset I couldn't leave her which meant I left the hospital at 3.25am. It took me to night buses to get home which I was able to pay cash on. If I couldn't my options were a £15 cab ride which I couldn't afford or a 2 hour walk. Would I be counted as a vunerable passenger I doubt it. Should I have planned in advance no chance but by having the option of paying cash I was able to get home.

I am not surpassed theyare getting rid of cash fares as the present regime both as London mayor and a national level does not give a monkeys about poor people. This system of no cash fares is going to cause the poor drivers no end of trouble

 

[jon0844]

I expect the unofficial policy will be to let anyone travel for free if they haven't got the means to pay on night buses.

Officially they might say 'vulnerable', but no driver is going to do any form of assessment and risk getting it wrong - and will just want to get driving again.

I don't foresee a problem. I doubt TfL wants any negative publicity from someone thrown off a bus. However, likewise, TfL doesn't want to tell the world that night buses are now a free for all.

 

[transmanche]

You seem to deliberately miss the point so I am not going to repeat my arguments.

No, but some people seem to going to the nth degree of calamitous events to justify the retention of cash payments.

The simple fact is that out of the 2.34 billion TfL bus journeys every, some people might be inconvenienced. Even if that's 100 people per night who find themselves without the means to travel because they have no Oyster card and no CPC, it still means that 99.99999% people are not affected.

However, I suspect that what jonmorris0844 said will be what happens in practice.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I expect the unofficial policy will be to let anyone travel for free if they haven't got the means to pay on night buses.

Officially they might say 'vulnerable', but no driver is going to do any form of assessment and risk getting it wrong - and will just want to get driving again.

I don't foresee a problem. I doubt TfL wants any negative publicity from someone thrown off a bus. However, likewise, TfL doesn't want to tell the world that night buses are now a free for all.

The thing is, it's already policy to allow any vulnerable passengers to travel for free. At present some drivers allow anyone aboard for free regardless of vulnerability, whereas others turn people away with purportedly no money boarding at a hospital at 0330. I'm sure that this won't change at all.

The one time I had to board a bus to get home and had a negative balance on my Oyster card, I was alone, had a debit card (not contactless, not that those were accepted then), no coinage, and no cash other than a 5 euro note. It was past midnight, and my Oyster card would ordinarily have worked but I was charged a maximum fare due to train delays (it had a Bus & Tram Pass loaded). Both TVMs at the station were out of order, and the immediately visible Oyster Ticket Stops had closed. My phone had just run out of battery so I could not look for further Oyster Ticket Stops. I was over 10 miles from home, and the requisite bus route at that time of night runs twice per hour.

Having explained all of the above to the driver of the bus during his stand time (obviously less the part about the frequency of his route), he still refused to let me aboard. I had a brief recollection from reading the bus drivers' Big Red Book that they can take a name and address and issue an Unpaid Fares Notice. I also recalled a poster on this forum, however, stating that when they asked a member of railway staff for such a notice, they were accused of being a faredodger, so I did not wish to say this.
In the end the driver agreed to let me on for the €5 note. He pocketed this, and did not issue a ticket.

I'm sure some here would have liked me to walk the three hours home.

 

[bb21]

No, but some people seem to going to the nth degree of calamitous events to justify the retention of cash payments.

This shows exactly why you are missing the point. You seem to be under the impression that because the number is small, it is therefore OK not to try and accommodate them. I (and others) have already explained how the supposed costs can be funded, so I really don't understand why the insistence on removing cash fare facilities. Also don't forget that TfL do have a social responsibility which they are seemingly ignoring.

*head bangs*

I am getting tired of this discussion. As I said before, we are not going to agree, so I am going to leave it here.

 

[radamfi]

Are there any statistics on thefts from London bus drivers? You would think that they would no longer be targets for robbery given they don't take much cash nowadays.

In the unlikely event of someone boarding without sufficient credit or a contactless card, in almost all cases there will be someone on the bus with a spare contactless card who could pay for the journey in return for cash. In areas where no change is given, passengers without change sometimes get change from fellow passengers.

In the extremely unlikely event of no one on the bus having a spare contactless card, the driver could use his contactless/Oyster card and accept the cash informally.

 

[jon0844]

All it takes is for drivers to be given new instructions and it should be okay. The one pocketing the Euros is a whole different story.

 

[a729]

What about allowing pubs and clubs to top up Oyster cards? For many that will be the last place before trying to get a night bus!

Topping up at ATMs would be brilliant
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I expect the unofficial policy will be to let anyone travel for free if they haven't got the means to pay on night buses.

Officially they might say 'vulnerable', but no driver is going to do any form of assessment and risk getting it wrong - and will just want to get driving again.

I don't foresee a problem. I doubt TfL wants any negative publicity from someone thrown off a bus. However, likewise, TfL doesn't want to tell the world that night buses are now a free for all.

So then it will become a fare dodgers charter?! That could cost more than cash fares did when people who don't want to pay get wind of this!

I foresee a very big problem- this could lead to fare evasion to rise even more than the introduction of the new Routemaster!

 

[jon0844]

Yes, it might make it easy for people at night to travel free with a sob story. But that's presumably always been a problem, especially as drivers are instructed not to get out of their cab - and control will want them to keep moving.

Thus when I've been on a bus where someone has got on and walked by, called back by the driver, when the kid didn't respond, we proceeded. The driver didn't appear to do anything (like radio control) and this was in the middle of the day!

I expect many people already get away without paying. I've seen people with Oyster cards that fail being waved through, although not always. But, if you don't want to pay, I'm sure sooner or later you'll get what you want. As in there'll be another bus along in a few minutes so try again.

Given the tiny numbers of revenue protection officers, I get the feeling TfL isn't too concerned. It's easy to pretend the problem isn't that big a deal, which was always the case when the bendy buses were in operation and people got used to being able to step on and not even have to face the driver. In fact, the front doors were probably the ones used the least.

Perhaps TfL would get more strict in the future, but at the very least they'll probably have a long period where they are especially lenient and will instruct drivers accordingly. TfL wants this to succeed to save money, so avoiding bad press will be worth the loss in income (that won't show up anyway, as it could just be fewer people deciding to travel).