London Northwestern Class 730s

KX03HZY

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Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone had any more details about the new Class 730 Aventras due for London Northwestern? Interested to know how they'll be specified and what services they'll be used on.

Thanks
 
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Lozzy0603

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Will they be able to join to a 350/1/3/4? As at the moment all three sub types seem to be used quite freely with each other throughout the working timetable, and as spares. It seems loosing the /2 sub type will create a massive hole that will require better fleet planning and provide less cross-redundancy should any particular set fail. Gaining the /4 sub type from TPE will not plug the massive hole that loosing the /2s will create in LNWRs Fleet.
 

Geeves

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In regards to joining to a class 350 the answer will almost certainly be a no.
 

thecrofter

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Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone had any more details about the new Class 730 Aventras due for London Northwestern? Interested to know how they'll be specified and what services they'll be used on.

Thanks

There was an article in Railway Herald a while ago (can't remember what issue) that listed what the future orders were for West Midlands Trains:
730/0 - 36 x 3 car sets to replace 323s. 100mph (WMR)
730/1 - 29 x 5 car sets London - Birmingham services. 110mph (LNR)
730/2 - 16 x 5 car sets London - Crewe, Birmingham - Liverpool services. 110 mph (LNR)
 

Bletchleyite

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Anyone know how the 730/2s will differ from the 730/1s?

I don't *know*, but it wouldn't surprise me if the /1s had 3+2 seating and the /2s 2+2.

Given their present inability to keep 350s on the right diagrams (even though sending a /2 to Crewe causes delays) I'm not convinced that having the WCML sets in two subclasses is at all sensible - better to have them all the same.
 
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43096

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I don't *know*, but it wouldn't surprise me if the /1s had 3+2 seating and the /s 2+2.

Given their present inability to keep 350s on the right diagrams (even though sending a /2 to Crewe causes delays) I'm not convinced that having the WCML sets in two subclasses is at all sensible - better to have them all the same.
Agreed. There has been a long-standing inability (incapability) of WMT and predecessors back to Regional Railways Central days to allocate the right stock to the diagrammed turns.
 

Bletchleyite

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Agreed. There has been a long-standing inability (incapability) of WMT and predecessors back to Regional Railways Central days to allocate the right stock to the diagrammed turns.

It's a railway thing generally, the former Central Trains random unit generator has been in operation about as long as the Northern one, which itself has been around since the 1998 timetable change (that increased services, diagramming the fleet way too tightly to be sensible) and possibly before.

Bus companies are as bad at times, in MK at least there is a total inability to keep route branded vehicles on route, which wouldn't strike me as anywhere near as hard to achieve given that shunting a few buses around to get the one at the back out is a lot quicker than shunting trains round.

But if you can't do it, the sensible answer is to have as much as possible the same. So have all 350s rejigged to the same layout and power sockets fitted to the /1s (the /1 and /3 layout is similar but not identical, and /1s don't have power sockets in Standard), and only have one subclass of WCML Aventra (with a high-ish density 2+2 layout like the 350/1s presently have).
 

43096

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But if you can't do it, the sensible answer is to have as much as possible the same. So have all 350s rejigged to the same layout and power sockets fitted to the /1s (the /1 and /3 layout is similar but not identical, and /1s don't have power sockets in Standard), and only have one subclass of WCML Aventra (with a high-ish density 2+2 layout like the 350/1s presently have).
Absolutely spot on. Standardisation always makes it easier - one of SWR’s reasons for replacing all its 455/456/458/707 fleets was to standardise the metro/suburban fleet.
 

whhistle

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Given their present inability to keep 350s on the right diagrams (even though sending a /2 to Crewe causes delays) I'm not convinced that having the WCML sets in two subclasses is at all sensible - better to have them all the same.
This is it.
It's partly what messed up the Voyagers. Having some 4 coaches, others 5, some tilting, some not... works in theory but always seems to fall down in practice as sets are sent to work on diagrams they're not really supposed to work on.
Cross City could work with it's own sets but perhaps that's the limit.

I'd also be interested to see the research done on whether that middle seat is used during peak times, or whether it's worth having more space for standing.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd also be interested to see the research done on whether that middle seat is used during peak times, or whether it's worth having more space for standing.

To be fair, there is a possibility that the London-Brum sets could get a Class 700 like layout instead of 3+2, I genuinely don't know and I'm not aware WMT having released anything confirming either way. But if general capacity is being increased, there's probably no great need for that. The south WCML is not like Thameslink in loading terms, if you 12-car-ed (10.Aventra) everything you'd have enough peak capacity for years to come.

Middle seat usage on the south WCML is mixed. Commuters don't like it, but on off peak trains it is used, particularly where you've got a large family with kids or mixed group in a bay of 6. This actually leads me to the view that the 2+2 airline layout is best for commuters, but the 3+2 mostly bays layout actually works best on the Crewes and the Liverpools where there is a *lot* more leisure travel.
 

gordonthemoron

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Presently, we have maximum 3x350s coupled together on the Euston-Northampton trains. Will the 730s be limited to 2x units or can platforms handle 3x?
 

Bletchleyite

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Presently, we have maximum 3x350s coupled together on the Euston-Northampton trains. Will the 730s be limited to 2x units or can platforms handle 3x?

2x, but as they are 24m units rather than 20m 2x730 is the same length as 3x350.

1x730 is 120m long, the rough length of a Class 350 and a half, which is actually a perfect length for most off peak south WCML services. 4 is rarely enough but 8 often excessive.
 

gordonthemoron

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2x, but as they are 24m units rather than 20m 2x730 is the same length as 3x350.

1x730 is 120m long, the rough length of a Class 350 and a half, which is actually a perfect length for most off peak south WCML services. 4 is rarely enough but 8 often excessive.

sounds good
 

radamfi

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There haven't been any new 2+3 trains for ages. 172s were 2+2 so if you have 2+2 for those, so would it be actually likely that there would be have 2+3 for these new trains?
 

sprinterguy

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There haven't been any new 2+3 trains for ages. 172s were 2+2 so if you have 2+2 for those, so would it be actually likely that there would be have 2+3 for these new trains?
The Greater Anglia class 720 Aventras will have 3+2 seating. The London Northwestern class 730s are part of the same family of trains, just with corridor fitted cabs, so there is a precedent, though hopefully they won't be so fitted if they're intended for the longer-distance services.
 

samuelmorris

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It should present a fair increase in capacity, with 37x80m units being replaced with 45x120m units. I'm assuming no announcement has been made on when these are intended to be introduced. Given the delays to the first two Aventra classes, it could be a fair wait before we see any of these in service.
 

sprinterguy

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It should present a fair increase in capacity, with 37x80m units being replaced with 45x120m units. I'm assuming no announcement has been made on when these are intended to be introduced. Given the delays to the first two Aventra classes, it could be a fair wait before we see any of these in service.
I believe that the London Northwestern units are due to enter service by June 2021.
 

Bletchleyite

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It should present a fair increase in capacity, with 37x80m units being replaced with 45x120m units

Very much needed, as there are almost no present services for which an 80m train is actually adequate. Hopefully they will also be financed in such a way that they will be out in service as much as possible - the Class 350/2 lease deal discourages this and as such too many off-peak and weekend trains are 4-car.
 

jcc

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Interior and exterior renders here: https://twitter.com/tobythetram/status/1058485676998565888

Very, um, bold interior choice for the CAF units.



 
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samuelmorris

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As far as I can tell they look like the same Kiel seats as the 720s - not surprising I guess since it's the same franchise operator. They look quite smart, though I agree with the comments about the 'lively' seat pattern for the WMT livery. I quite like it actually, it's characterful. The front ends aren't that bad looking either, considering the standard Aventra front end isn't exactly beautiful to begin with.
 

Bletchleyite

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Good to see no 3+2 (though the mind now boggles as to what the difference between the north and south WCML interiors will be?), and the LNR interior looks very classy (though can we please *actually* have the fake leather headrests? The East Anglia ones have been delivered without). And the seats look decent, they look like the 2+2 version of those on Abellio East Anglia which do appear better than ironing boards and quite similar to the Grammer E3000 found in the Desiros.

But that orange? Yuck. It looks like a Stagecoach bus interior on a bad day.
 

Wolfie

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Good to see no 3+2 (though the mind now boggles as to what the difference between the north and south WCML interiors will be?), and the LNR interior looks very classy (though can we please *actually* have the fake leather headrests? The East Anglia ones have been delivered without). And the seats look decent, they look like the 2+2 version of those on Abellio East Anglia which do appear better than ironing boards and quite similar to the Grammer E3000 found in the Desiros.

But that orange? Yuck. It looks like a Stagecoach bus interior on a bad day.
Re the orange on the seats - more like a design rejected by easyJet..
 

samuelmorris

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Perhaps not since they're branded totally differently. I'm sure occasionally one will end up substituting but theoretically it should be far less often than today...
 

43096

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So it turns out, despite what I thought, that the south WCML ones will be 3+2 and the others 2+2. Who bets they will, as at present, just be diagrammed as one fleet?

:(
Diagrammed, no. The reality is they will be used indiscriminately, as per the random unit generator we have discussed previously.
 

Bletchleyite

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Diagrammed, no. The reality is they will be used indiscriminately, as per the random unit generator we have discussed previously.

Which totally negates the point of having two seating layouts.

Better would be a single "average the difference" layout, perhaps something more like the Thameslink Cityflyer layout - 2+2 of narrowish seats but with a wide aisle for standees. Or just recognise that nobody on the south WCML likes 3+2 (unlike other places the middle seat is normally unoccupied) and just have them all 2+2 with armrests and tables.
 

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