London to Calais fares?

[jkdd77]

As I understand it, this ticket is routed "Stena P & O" rather than "Any Permitted", so, in the absence of any prohibition shown on the ticket, it must surely be valid on HS1 services, regardless of whether Southeastern want it to be valid or not.

 

[First class]

This makes more sense; tickets to London would generally be routed either Plus High Speed or Not HS1 (can't remember the exact wording).

If a ticket is routed Any Permitted and the permitted routes include routes via HS1, then that ticket is valid on HS1. Most, but not all, tickets to/from London (i.e. not "long distance through tickets") wouldn't be routed Any Permitted, which I think is what the blurb is getting at.

The quote posted by LM__ is plain wrong, or misleading at best.

The quote is from the SouthEastern pricing manager! Made 08/11/2011.

Fares

Special walk-up High Speed fares have been created for travel between stations served by High Speed services and their local connections. All these fares have the route “Plus High Speed” (00131) or “Ebsflet +HSNotLon” (00133). Prices are shown in your TIS or on the Fares Finder.

Walk-up High Speed fares are also available to Underground Zones via both St Pancras and Stratford Intl, and between Ebbsfleet International, Ashford International and Stratford international and London Terminals.

These fares are available from station ticket offices, TVMs, Avantix Mobile and the Southeastern website and must be bought before travel. They cannot be bought on the train.

Passengers who have already bought a non High Speed ticket can upgrade before departure by purchasing a supplement relevant to the journey that they are making on High Speed services (for issuing supplements see table below click here). Please note that upgrades for daily tickets are routed in the same way as walk-up tickets as “Plus High Speed” (00131).

Single and Return supplement tickets are available from station ticket offices, TVMs and Avantix Mobile and must be purchased before the passenger boards the train otherwise they may be liable to a Penalty Fare. At no time can these be issued alone. Evidence of another ticket routed “Not Valid On HS1” is always required before these supplements are issued.

Note that supplements for Season Tickets are no longer available. Passengers should either purchase a daily upgrade or exchange their season ticket for one routed ‘Plus High Speed’.

First Class ticket holders with tickets valid for travel via Gravesend or Ashford International will be able to use services without purchasing a separate supplement. However, First Class ticket holders that require travelling back on themselves to use services will require further tickets.

Early Bird tickets are not valid on High Speed services. Early Bird ticket holders who wish to travel on High Speed services will have to purchase the relevant full Plus High Speed ticket.

‘Inboundary’ Travelcards cannot be used on High Speed services.

Southeastern Super off-peak tickets cannot be used on High Speed services even if a High Speed supplement is purchased.

Back to top
Issuing supplements

Supplement tickets should be issued as follows.

Check whether the passenger already holds a ticket valid for travel on High Speed services. For standard class tickets, there are two scenarios:

1) - Check if the ticket already held is a First Class ticket. If so, then a supplement will not be required unless the ticket holder wishes to backtrack. If this is the case then a further ticket is required. The following is applicable if no First Class supplement is available in systems.

First Class ticket holders, who wish to backtrack to travel on the High Speed, will require an additional First Class ticket from their origin station to the appropriate High Speed interchange station (i.e. Ashford International or Gravesend for Ebbsfleet International).

For Example:

A customer wishing to travel from Tonbridge to London via the High Speed who already holds a First Class ticket routed ‘not valid on HS1’ can upgrade by purchasing a First Class Tonbridge to Ashford International ticket.

2) - Check if there are supplement fares shown in the TIS for the journey being made. If the supplements for that journey are not in the TIS, then issue the supplement to/from Ashford International or Ebbsfleet International as specified in Table A.

Supplements should always be issued for travel to/from London St Pancras or Stratford International, depending on where the journey leaves the High Speed service at the London end. At the Kent end the supplement should match the origin/destination on the passenger’s original ticket.

If the passenger already holds an out boundary Travelcard, ensure that it covers all Zones 1-6. Travelcards for other Zones cannot be used to purchase supplements.

To determine the correct ticket type to issue, check whether the passenger will require a single, anytime day return, or off peak day supplement for the journey(s) that they wish to make on the High Speed Service. Ensure that the passenger’s existing ticket covers both the period of validity (e.g. a period return) and the time of day that they wish to purchase a supplement for. Valid combinations are detailed below - click here.

For the avoidance of doubt, supplements must not be issued unless the passenger already holds a valid travel ticket.

Tickets to or from London Terminals which display the 'Any Permitted' route do not entitle you to travel on High Speed services.

However, tickets issued over longer distances e.g. York to Dover etc. which display the 'Any Permitted' route are valid on High Speed services.

Further information on bus links and car parking at Ebbsfleet International is included below.

Station NLCs/CRS codes are London St Pancras International (1555/STP), Ebbsfleet International (5566/EBD), Ashford International (5004/AFK) and Stratford International (7222/SFA).

 

[LexyBoy]

As I understand it, this ticket is routed "Stena P & O" rather than "Any Permitted", so, in the absence of any prohibition shown on the ticket, it must surely be valid on HS1 services, regardless of whether Southeastern want it to be valid or not.

They could argue that it's only valid on Stena & P&O services...

 

[First class]

They could argue that it's only valid on Stena & P&O services...

If it's being used via HS1, when "managers" do not believe it is valid and should be used on the traditional routes, all will happen is:

1) Product withdrawn or;
2) Route changed to STENA NOT HS1 or;
3) New expensive route added STENA PLUS HS1

Fare is not regulated so SET will no doubt do something if it becomes an issue.

 

[Cletus]

There is the added complication that the Stena haven't been involved with Dover-Calais ferries for about 10 years. It's been just P&O Ferries since then.

 

[First class]

There is the added complication that the Stena haven't been involved with Dover-Calais ferries for about 10 years. It's been just P&O Ferries since then.

Even more reason for SET to justify renaming the routes...

 

[Eagle]

Even more reason for SET to justify renaming the routes...

here be offtopic pedantry:

SET hasn't existed since 2006... :P

Southeastern's full name is London and Southeastern Railway (or LSER as Network Rail seem to refer to them). South Eastern Trains was the nationalized franchise holder that existed from 2003–6.

 

[First class]

here be offtopic pedantry:

SET hasn't existed since 2006... :P

Southeastern's full name is London and Southeastern Railway (or LSER as Network Rail seem to refer to them). South Eastern Trains was the nationalized franchise holder that existed from 2003–6.

SET still refers to people who set the fare for the SouthEastern franchise.

Their Avantix/The Manual codes are SET, NSE and Se.

 

[Eagle]

NSE

Another former nationally-owned operator there.

Point is, the current company is known as LSER. The codes just aren't updated, it seems. (Cf. how the NRT still refers to operators with codes GR and LE.)

 

[simonm]

Had a day trip on Thursday 12th April London to Calais.
Bought the ticket the day before at EUS, had some persuasion to get the bloke to sell me it, but persuaded him to type it in and issue the ticket (with Network SouthEast railcard discount). Just two tickets issued London Terminals to Calais and cost £23.75. Went through barriers OK at St Pancras. Travelled on the 10:10 St Pan to Dover Priory. Caught P&O bus (£2 flat fare) to the docks. Checked in at the terminal. She took outward portion off us and gave reservation coupon. Boarded internal bus to the boat, via Passport Control.
We were the first people on the ferry, so it was quite deserted!
On arrival, we left and got courtesy bus to Calais terminal which is being developed so is a bit like a building site at the mo. Managed to find bridge to the town (looks like you are crossing a car park) then road into town (20 -30 min walk). There is a nice museum there, you can go up the Town Hall tower, there are cafes etc. We walked along the front and had ice cream.
On return leg, woman a bit funny at Calais saying there should be another ticket but she just photocopied ticket and said "it is awkward for me" - like we cared! They have a X-Ray scanner, which is odd, but they weren't that bothered (I went through with belt still on), and the two passport controls. Tiny waiting room at other side. This was the 19:55 sailing. We weren't that early onto boat as there was much faffing with tickets etc but sailing was fine. On arrival at Dover we missed last bus (it finished 20 mins before we landed!), so shared a taxi (£5) to the station. Boarded High Speed service again. On board guard said "You don't see many of them" and punched ticket. Train was almost empty. Arrived back into St Pan just before 11pm. A very enjoyable day!!

 

[wintonian]

Had a day trip on Thursday 12th April London to Calais.
Bought the ticket the day before at EUS, had some persuasion to get the bloke to sell me it, but persuaded him to type it in and issue the ticket (with Network SouthEast railcard discount). Just two tickets issued London Terminals to Calais and cost £23.75. Went through barriers OK at St Pancras. Travelled on the 10:10 St Pan to Dover Priory. Caught P&O bus (£2 flat fare) to the docks. Checked in at the terminal. She took outward portion off us and gave reservation coupon. Boarded internal bus to the boat, via Passport Control.
We were the first people on the ferry, so it was quite deserted!
On arrival, we left and got courtesy bus to Calais terminal which is being developed so is a bit like a building site at the mo. Managed to find bridge to the town (looks like you are crossing a car park) then road into town (20 -30 min walk). There is a nice museum there, you can go up the Town Hall tower, there are cafes etc. We walked along the front and had ice cream.
On return leg, woman a bit funny at Calais saying there should be another ticket but she just photocopied ticket and said "it is awkward for me" - like we cared! They have a X-Ray scanner, which is odd, but they weren't that bothered (I went through with belt still on), and the two passport controls. Tiny waiting room at other side. This was the 19:55 sailing. We weren't that early onto boat as there was much faffing with tickets etc but sailing was fine. On arrival at Dover we missed last bus (it finished 20 mins before we landed!), so shared a taxi (£5) to the station. Boarded High Speed service again. On board guard said "You don't see many of them" and punched ticket. Train was almost empty. Arrived back into St Pan just before 11pm. A very enjoyable day!!

Glad you didn't have any problems with HS1, although the barriers take them and the guards allow it, SouthEastern would rather they weren’t valid.

The ticket the lady at Calais wanted on the return is the control ticket you are supposed to be issued but as few people seem to be aware of how t issue these tickets it's just complicating matters asking for a control ticket as well, so untill TOC's tell their staff how to issue these then P&O at Calais will just have to lump it.

Its also useful for people to know what the current cost and times for the bus are

 

[barrykas]

For reference, the page relating to the Calais ticket in "The Manual" was updated on February 14th. The "Tickets" section now states:

Normal Anytime Day Return tickets may be issued by ticket machines. Travel on Southeastern High Speed services is not included. There are no time restrictions on travel.

It is important that the correct route is shown on the tickets as indicated. Unrouted tickets must not be issued as this could cause severe problems to our customers. A control ticket needs to be issued.

There's no mention of the ticket on either the Southeastern or National Rail sites, however.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[LondonJohn]

Glad you didn't have any problems with HS1, although the barriers take them and the guards allow it, SouthEastern would rather they weren’t valid.

The ticket the lady at Calais wanted on the return is the control ticket you are supposed to be issued but as few people seem to be aware of how t issue these tickets it's just complicating matters asking for a control ticket as well, so untill TOC's tell their staff how to issue these then P&O at Calais will just have to lump it.

Its also useful for people to know what the current cost and times for the bus are

Glad you had a good day. I was issued with 2 x control tickets for the ferry crossings and had no problems with them in Dover or Calais. I did have a problem on the HS1 saying the ticket wasnt valid and this was the response I got from Southeastern Trains.


Please do not reply to this email. We are unable to respond to emails we receive at this address. If you’d like to email us another question or comment please use our email contact webform: http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/about-us/contact-us/

Thank you

Southeastern Customer Relations, PO Box 63428, London, SE1P 5FD

Tel: 0845 000 2222

Ref:

Dear Mr

Thank you for your recent enquiry onboard one of our High Speed trains.

I understand that you wanted to know whether the London Terminals to Calais ticket was valid on the High Speed service from Stratford International.

I can confirm that this ticket alone is not valid on the High Speed trains. You would need to purchase a High Speed Upgrade to travel from Stratford International.

If we can provide any further information, then please feel free to contact us here:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/about-us/contact-us/

Yours sincerely



Customer Relations Officer
Southeastern

 

[wintonian]

It needs to say "Not HS1" on the ticket then.

SouthEastern have been trying to ban them from their HS1 trains (that are so exclusive there is no need to have different classes of accommodation) for ages.

I think condition 12 applies here:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such
as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can
be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train
Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you
are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:

(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price

paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket

available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that

train for the journey shown on the ticket); or

(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and

publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

As I have never seen any notices or other publications referring to these tickets (and I consider it highly unlikely that any exist) I do not see how this restriction can appear on one if it doesn't exist in the first place!

 

[34D]

For reference, the page relating to the Calais ticket in "The Manual" was updated on February 14th. The "Tickets" section now states:



There's no mention of the ticket on either the Southeastern or National Rail sites, however.

Cheers,

Barry

Thank you to Barry as always for his excellent information.

 

[jkdd77]

They could argue that it's only valid on Stena & P&O services...

That would mean that a "train" ticket was not valid on any trains at all!

I'm pretty confident that a court would reject such a perverse interpretation, and that, since the (non-publicly accessible) Manual cannot reasonably be said to be "a notice or other publication" for the purpose of NRCOC Condition 12, the ticket remains valid on HS1 services until either:
a) the ticket is withdrawn from sale, or;
b) the restriction on using HS1 services is made publicly available in "notices or other publications" that are actually accessible to passengers, or;
b) "Not HS1" is added to the ticket in some form.

 

[wintonian]

a) the ticket is withdrawn from sale, or;

I'm pretty sure the TOC's (AKA SouthEastern) would like to do this, but I suspect they are protected.

b) the restriction on using HS1 services is made publicly available in "notices or other publications" that are actually accessible to passengers, or;

Not going to happen as that would mean advertising or at least letting people know about the ticket.

b) "Not HS1" is added to the ticket in some form.

They are currently routed "Stena P&O" but as they are the only company that accept them (and possibly the only company taking foot passengers any more) there is no reason why this couldn’t be replaced with "Not HS1", but of course that would mean finding someone who knows how to change it.

 

[dfurn]

I find all this talk of train-ferry (and maybe train-ferry-train tickets) really interesting (for some reason). Maybe I should start a new thread on this but hardly anyone would be interested I suspect. I was wondering what other similar tickets might still exist, and I then remembered I've done a few. Glasgow to Arran was one a few years back, also Rochdale to Belfast via Stranrar (that was in the 1980s I should add) and mid-90s I walked into Bradford Interchange and bought a Bradford to Dublin return ticket (via Holyhead). The latter two tickets included train travel from the far-end port to the city centre. Come to think of it I found a photo recently of a Sealink-branded train which I think was running from Larne to Belfast. Can that be right? Well it wasn't in Scotland so must have been. I also have some distant memories of going on a Sealink ferry on Windermere and I wonder if that was on a rail-ferry ticket.

 

[wintonian]

I find all this talk of train-ferry (and maybe train-ferry-train tickets) really interesting (for some reason). Maybe I should start a new thread on this but hardly anyone would be interested I suspect. I was wondering what other similar tickets might still exist, and I then remembered I've done a few. Glasgow to Arran was one a few years back, also Rochdale to Belfast via Stranrar (that was in the 1980s I should add) and mid-90s I walked into Bradford Interchange and bought a Bradford to Dublin return ticket (via Holyhead). The latter two tickets included train travel from the far-end port to the city centre.

To start you off:

IOW

• Wightlink - Portsmouth Ryde Pier Head
• Wightlink - Lymington Pier - Yarmouth IOW
• Redfunnel - Southampton - West Cowes
• Redfunnel - Southampton - East Cowes
• Hovertravel - Portsmouth - Ryde Esplande

Channel Islands
Condor Ferries - Poole/ Weymouth - Jersey/ Guernsey

Irish Sea

• Stena P&O - Fishguard - Rosslare
• Stena P&O Cairnryan (via Ayr) - Belfast
• Stena P&O - Holyhead - Dublin/ Dun Laoghaire
• Irish Ferries - Holyhead - Dublin
• Isle of Man Steam Packet Company - Heysham Port - Dougles

Continental Europe
Stena P&O - Harwich - Hoek van Holland
Stena P&O - Dover Priory - Calais

London
Thames Clipper - London Blackfriars/ London Bridge Pier - Canary Wharf

Scotland
Northlink Ferries - Aberdeen - Kirkwall/ Lerwick
Northlink Ferries - Scrabster - Stromness/ Kirkwall
and pretty much anywhere served by CalMac.

Isles of Scilly
Isles of Scilly Travel - Penzance - St. Marys

 

[bnm]

Channel Islands currently Poole-Guernsey/Jersey only.

Weymouth closed due to partial collapse of the berth used by Condor Ferries.

 

[wintonian]

Channel Islands currently Poole-Guernsey/Jersey only.

Weymouth closed due to partial collapse of the berth used by Condor Ferries.

When will that be fixed?

 

[Birdbrain]

Not until at least 4th November according to condor's website

 

[BigVince76]

What would be the best way of doing a day trip to Calais from Barnehurst? I have a freedom pass so getting to central London would not cost anything and I have a Disabled Railcard. Is using HS1 worth it or would I be better of going via Dartford and changing there? Also is this possible on a Saturday? Thanks.

 

[wintonian]

What would be the best way of doing a day trip to Calais from Barnehurst? I have a freedom pass so getting to central London would not cost anything and I have a Disabled Railcard. Is using HS1 worth it or would I be better of going via Dartford and changing there? Also is this possible on a Saturday? Thanks.

HS1 would be the quickest but may require a change at Ashford Int, but I wouldn't try it unless you are brave ATM.

Waterloo East/ Charing Cross/ London Bridge are only an extra 30 - 40 min so it depends which end of London you are coming from.

London - Calais currently £36 (without railcard)

Aprox 1hr 10min on HS1 or 1hr 40/50 traditional routes.

 

[Daz28]

What would be the best way of doing a day trip to Calais from Barnehurst? I have a freedom pass so getting to central London would not cost anything and I have a Disabled Railcard. Is using HS1 worth it or would I be better of going via Dartford and changing there? Also is this possible on a Saturday? Thanks.

The quickest journey on a Saturday would be to change at Dartford, Gravesend and Ebbsfleet.
Your Freedom Pass would be valid to Dartford.

 

[wintonian]

The quickest journey on a Saturday would be to change at Dartford, Gravesend and Ebbsfleet.
Your Freedom Pass would be valid to Dartford.

Which then makes it £27.30 Dartford - Calais.

 

[BigVince76]

Which then makes it £27.30 Dartford - Calais.

Nice! Thanks for your help, I feel a cheese run is on the cards!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

It's interesting reading these postings, I used to go alot in the late 1970s and early 1980s from Shepperton were I live, via Waterloo/Victoria/Charing Cross on day trips to France, with a scheme called "Go French", which connected up with BR/Sealink and Seaspeed Hovercraft to Calais or Boulogne, (which I think is a nicer town and but I would like to go there again, however I don't think ferries go there now just for foot passengers.) On that Go French deal, you could go both ways by boat or hovercraft or out by boat and back by Hovercraft which I tended to do as it was quicker and you could have a meal on the ferry on the way home. I wonder how much the fare with a network railcard would be now from Shepperton to Calais on a Saturday day trip now?

Reading above threads, I also recall the Channel Islands boat trains going through the streets of Weymouth to the Quay Platform*, (which along with the tracks, is still there. The platform houses the condor ferry office now I think.) *I suppose that was steam then diesel all the way from Waterloo or perhaps in later years ran as an EMU to Bournemouth where the diesel was put on which they did for the Weymouth Town Trains. Rgds.

 

[junglejames]

You can get TOCNE Priv on P&O if that's any help; the ATOC website states:



Quite what that means in practice is anyone's guess, being (like much of the info on Priv tickets) somewhat vague. I'd quite like to know, I quite fancy un journée en France.

Basically the Dover to Calais fare is part fare, and part 'port taxes' (similar to airlines including 'airport taxes' in their fares.
What it is saying is that if you have a Priv card, then you dont need to pay the fare part, (so P&O dont make money from you), but you have to pay the port taxes.
If the day return is £10, then some of that would be the port taxes. Your fare with a priv would therefore be less than £10.

You always used to be able to turn up on the day and pay at the terminal. Infact, you may still be able to. However call P&O and check with them. They will know what you can do better than any rules you see anywhere on the railways.


Regarding the Rail Sail rules, which said to allow 45mins between arriving at the station and the time of the ferry. You would be daft to leave such a short time. Check in is between 30mins and 45mins prior to departure. Even if its 30mins, that only leaves you 15mins. Walking it in this time is pushing it. If you wait for the bus, they come every 20mins, so it could easily take 25mins from the station. Thats not even allowing for delayed trains etc.

Give yourself at least an hour, preferably more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.com/tourist/content/images/doca_tt_12.pdf"]2012 timetable[/URL]

I ended up on the Pride of Kent both ways.

I know how you feel, my brother works onboard that vessel
But hey, so did i at one point

 

[John @ home]

I wonder how much the fare with a network railcard would be now from Shepperton to Calais on a Saturday day trip now

National Fares Manual NFM 11 CD shows:

Shepperton - Calais route Stena P&O
Adult
Anytime Day Return (SDR) £56.30.

Shepperton - Calais route Stena P&O
Child
No fares available.

Shepperton - Calais route Stena P&O
Network Railcard
No fares available.