Sad Sprinter
Established Member
When did the East Coast gain supremacy over the Midland to reach Leeds from London? The original company to reach it after all was the Midland.
But the Great Northern was first to reach London.When did the East Coast gain supremacy over the Midland to reach Leeds from London? The original company to reach it after all was the Midland.
But the Great Northern was first to reach London.
I imagine when the West Riding & Grimsby opened between Westgate and Doncaster in 1866 it was game over, previous GNR services going via Featherstone & Askern.
The first route from Derby to London was actually via the Birmingham & Derby Jn to Whitacre and then via Coleshill to Hampton-in-Arden on the London & Birmingham to Euston. That was on 14 August 1839, not quite a year after the L&B opened.Wasn't the North Midland the first? Connecting onto the Midland Counties then the London & Birmingham?
...and into the sixties, with the Midland through service surviving into the 70s.They were competing routes until Nationalisation
Bedford-Hitchin.Prior to St Pancras being built, didn’t the Midland Railway run into Kings Cross (paying hefty amounts to the GNR for the running powers to do so?) Presumably they accessed the ECML via an east-west branch line somewhere north of London.
Thank you!Bedford-Hitchin.
Pedantic note: Except I don't think it was termed 'a branch' at the time. It was a double track main line. According to a note from @Senex from way back when, it only became a branch immediately after the Bedford - St Pancras route was opened in 1868. I think it was singled in around WW1 to reclaim the rails, BICBW.Bedford-Hitchin.
Indeed wasn't Bedford Midland station oriented more towards Hitchin than Luton until a few decades ago?Pedantic note: Except I don't think it was termed 'a branch' at the time. It was a double track main line. According to a note from @Senex from way back when, it only became a branch immediately after the Bedford - St Pancras route was opened in 1868. I think it was singled in around WW1 to reclaim the rails, BICBW.
Game over for the Midland?
...and into the sixties, with the Midland through service surviving into the 70s.
Until the rebuild of 1979 or so - it was, indeed, originally more or less straight from near Oakley to about 1.5 miles south of Bedford on the Hitchen line.Indeed wasn't Bedford Midland station oriented more towards Hitchin than Luton until a few decades ago?
You might think that would be logical - but no, it wasn't. Certainly as far as the Midland was concerned.Game over for the Midland?
I'd say yes and no....and into the sixties, with the Midland through service surviving into the 70s.
9/9/63 to 14/6/64 timetable:I'd say the Midland (or its management in both LMS and BR days) kept sort-of trying to compete with the GN route until the winter 1962 timetable.
I think that was when real route/timetable reform kicked in. With the introduction of 100 mph Deltic-hauled Leeds expresses, any pretence at competition went out of the window, and I think BRB ordered some proper rationalisation. IIRC* the Midland withdrew all its 'independent' Leeds and Bradford trains from that time - although the Scottish services remained.
I don't know how many trains per day it had involved up to then, but there were certainly some St Pancras - Leeds/Bradford trains up to that date, some with through coaches to Halifax, IIRC on some trains. (Not sure where they were detached.)
* I'm not 100% certain they were all axed with one timetable change, but that's how I remember it. Open to correction.
I'm not 100% certain they were all axed with one timetable change, but that's how I remember it. Open to correction
Actually through trains St Pancras-Leeds did last a lot longer. The 1205 and 1705 from St Pancras were both running through to Leeds in 1974. The up workings were 0916 and 1706 from Leeds.And I'm sure these services didn't last much longer.
I'd be surprised if any avoided Leeds, certainly not the Scottish trains.9/9/63 to 14/6/64 timetable:
I don't know which of these made calls at Leeds, though. And I'm sure these services didn't last much longer. Still in the 7/9/64 to 13/6/65 timetable though. And still Bradford - Saint Pancras in 1966/67.
- 1M11 7.32am Bradford FS to Saint Pancras arrive 1.3pm
- 1M17 8.50am Bradford FS to Saint Pancras arrive 1.55pm
- 1M28 11.51am Bradford FS to Saint Pancras arrive 4.55pm
- 1M86 9.5am Glasgow St. Enoch to Saint Pancras arrive 6.7pm
- 1M88 10.15am Edinburgh Waverley to Saint Pancras arrive 7.45pm
Gosh, I'm really surprised these passed under my radar at the time, I can't have been taking so much notice of services as I thought I was.Actually through trains St Pancras-Leeds did last a lot longer. The 1205 and 1705 from St Pancras were both running through to Leeds in 1974. The up workings were 0916 and 1706 from Leeds.
Yes, in the up direction they formed 1010 and 1800 from Sheffield. The down trains were in the standard xx05 Sheffield path.Presumably these were integrated into the 1 TPH departures from Sheffield,
1706 ex Leeds was via Nottingham but 0916 ex Leeds and both down trains were via Derby.I would imagine they'd run via Nottingham?
In 1974 none had Wakefield calls so I presume that they used the old Midland route between Sheffield and Leeds.I don't know how many reroutings BR did for Midland trains between Sheffield and Leeds/York in the 1970s-80s, but it was several
The Master Cutler/Sheffield Pullman ran between Sheffield and Kings Cross via Retford from 1958 until 1968. For a while in the early 1960s the 0745 Kings Cross-Leeds and 1730 Leeds-Kings Cross also had Sheffield portions detached/attached at Retford.BR did at one point consider running Nottingham and Sheffield services (separately) from King's Cross rather than St Pancras
Were the carriage servicing facilities near Forster Square? I cant think where the Midland had such facilities in Leeds.It was traditional for Midland route trains into Leeds to continue to Bradford, normally just half the formation and in final steam times hauled by a tank loco. Into Bradford Forster Square, from the north, the onetime Midland terminus,
Indeed wasn't Bedford Midland station oriented more towards Hitchin than Luton until a few decades ago?
I don't know how many reroutings BR did for Midland trains between Sheffield and Leeds/York in the 1970s-80s, but it was several, as colliery subsidence progressively impacted the different available combinations, and then later affected routes which had received investment - some of these being now actually abandoned. The changes generally followed some years of poor timings and slow running. Wakefield Kirkgate seemed to yoyo between being a main line station and a dilapidated unstaffed halt.
The old station was called Bedford Midland Road. I visited it many times. The name changed when the station moved prior to electrification.Indeed wasn't Bedford Midland station oriented more towards Hitchin than Luton until a few decades ago?
The old Bedford Midland Road station was very close to the Ford End Road Bridge, with the line to/from Hitchin straight ahead. The junction to go to/from St Pancras was a sharp curve to the west, if I remember correctly it had a 20mph speed restriction.It's aligned to the slow lines, which north of Ford End Road bridge are straight, so when it was moved northwards a couple of hundred metres it didn't change alignment, and it still points pretty much straight at the original bridge over the river on what used to be the Hitchin route. The slow lines kink to the west after going under Ford End Road bridge to head over the second bridge over the river, from the original St Pancras extension; the fast lines, added later, cross the third bridge in a sweeping curve and still haven't quite become parallel to the slows even by the station's current more northerly position.
The goods lines between Bedford and Luton were upgraded for passenger trains in advance of the introduction of the Modernisation Plan DMU suburban service.the main Midland 4-track was operated more as Passenger and Goods, rather than Fast and Slow
The hourly "sweeper" service mostly to/from Nottingham or Derby called at Bedford Midland Road, but not much else.the resulting need for all passenger trains to weave over and back to the station long led to a poor service there by expresses.
As already indicated, the fast lines were a long way from the old Bedford Midland Road station. The new Bedford Midland station was built much closer to the fast lines, but still did not have platforms on the fast lines. The down fast line platform was added later, there is still no platform on the up fast line.if I am not mistaken the fast lines did not have any platforms until a few decades ago, passing just outside the west side of the station, until (seemingly grudgingly) they were added more recently
And that down fast line platform is responsible for the break down to 110 in what would otherwise be a decently long stretch of 125 — non-platform up fast is 125.As already indicated, the fast lines were a long way from the old Bedford Midland Road station. The new Bedford Midland station was built much closer to the fast lines, but still did not have platforms on the fast lines. The down fast line platform was added later, there is still no platform on the up fast line.