Sad Sprinter
Established Member
When did the East Coast gain supremacy over the Midland to reach Leeds from London? The original company to reach it after all was the Midland.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
London to Leeds routing
- Thread starter Sad Sprinter
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
norbitonflyer
Established Member
They were competing routes until Nationalisation, but the ECML always had the edge on speed
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
But the Great Northern was first to reach London.
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
Wasn't the North Midland the first? Connecting onto the Midland Counties then the London & Birmingham?
Spartacus
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Aug 2009
- Messages
- 2,928
I imagine when the West Riding & Grimsby opened between Westgate and Doncaster in 1866 it was game over, previous GNR services going via Featherstone & Askern.
Sad Sprinter
Established Member
Game over for the Midland?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The first route from Derby to London was actually via the Birmingham & Derby Jn to Whitacre and then via Coleshill to Hampton-in-Arden on the London & Birmingham to Euston. That was on 14 August 1839, not quite a year after the L&B opened.
The more direct Midland Counties route via Leicester to Rugby opened on 1 July 1840, so the Coleshill route had less than a year before becoming a backwater.
The North Midland opened to Leeds on the same day that the Rugby line opened, so yes, Leeds-London was via the NMR/MCR/L&B.
York was also first connected to London on the same day as Leeds, as the York & North Midland also opened then.
...and into the sixties, with the Midland through service surviving into the 70s.
Wilts Wanderer
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Nov 2016
- Messages
- 2,493
Prior to St Pancras being built, didn’t the Midland Railway run into Kings Cross (paying hefty amounts to the GNR for the running powers to do so?) Presumably they accessed the ECML via an east-west branch line somewhere north of London.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Bedford-Hitchin.
Wilts Wanderer
Established Member
- Joined
- 21 Nov 2016
- Messages
- 2,493
Thank you!
70014IronDuke
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Jun 2015
- Messages
- 3,699
Pedantic note: Except I don't think it was termed 'a branch' at the time. It was a double track main line. According to a note from @Senex from way back when, it only became a branch immediately after the Bedford - St Pancras route was opened in 1868. I think it was singled in around WW1 to reclaim the rails, BICBW.
If you look at one of the final scenes of Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines*, you can see how carefully the line was built on the rise to the tunnel at Southill/Old Warden. HR 103 (appearing as a Nord loco) can be seen climbing the ascent to the tunnel before entering and then exiting (actually from the same, north end portal) with an ancient biplane on top of the train.
* IMO this is the only clip worth seeing in a nonsense film, but then I'm probably a curmudgeonly ol' s*d.
Indeed wasn't Bedford Midland station oriented more towards Hitchin than Luton until a few decades ago?
Spartacus
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Aug 2009
- Messages
- 2,928
Yes, can't see any reasonable competition in speed terms after then. Although...
...in a way they competed until a few years ago with the few Leeds - St Pancras services until the HSTs were withdrawn. There was a plan for MML to run more Leeds trains, extending the Sheffields back to Leeds, but the SRA withdrew the funding. I think this may have eventually lead to the Northern Leeds - Nottinghams as some sort of replacement.
Although no longer the mainstream London to Leeds service, the Midland operator continued to promote such a service until very recently, with the HST trains to the end being based for maintenance at Leeds. This always seemed a bit disingenuous as the through trains on weekdays were only at the very start of service, around 0530 and 0630, and likewise last thing at night on the return, but on Saturdays there was a more practical one after 0700, on which they apparently sold quite a number of Leeds to London advances.
The associated Midland map at this time was even more misleading, showing the operation as if it was the only, and prime, all-day service from Leeds to London, ignoring all other TOCs.
The associated Midland map at this time was even more misleading, showing the operation as if it was the only, and prime, all-day service from Leeds to London, ignoring all other TOCs.
70014IronDuke
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Jun 2015
- Messages
- 3,699
Until the rebuild of 1979 or so - it was, indeed, originally more or less straight from near Oakley to about 1.5 miles south of Bedford on the Hitchen line.
You might think that would be logical - but no, it wasn't. Certainly as far as the Midland was concerned.
I'd say yes and no.
While the Thames-Clyde express and overnight sleeper survived into the 70s, that was really for East Midland to Glasgow traffic.
And yes, there were the 2 tpd in HST days, but these were essentially for maintenance services (even if, as @Taunton states, they were misrepresented in some publicity blah).
I'd say the Midland (or its management in both LMS and BR days) kept sort-of trying to compete with the GN route until the winter 1962 timetable.
I think that was when real route/timetable reform kicked in. With the introduction of 100 mph Deltic-hauled Leeds expresses, any pretence at competition went out of the window, and I think BRB ordered some proper rationalisation. IIRC* the Midland withdrew all its 'independent' Leeds and Bradford trains from that time - although the Scottish services remained.
I don't know how many trains per day it had involved up to then, but there were certainly some St Pancras - Leeds/Bradford trains up to that date, some with through coaches to Halifax, IIRC on some trains. (Not sure where they were detached.)
* I'm not 100% certain they were all axed with one timetable change, but that's how I remember it. Open to correction.
9/9/63 to 14/6/64 timetable:
- 1M11 7.32am Bradford FS to Saint Pancras arrive 1.3pm
- 1M17 8.50am Bradford FS to Saint Pancras arrive 1.55pm
- 1M28 11.51am Bradford FS to Saint Pancras arrive 4.55pm
- 1M86 9.5am Glasgow St. Enoch to Saint Pancras arrive 6.7pm
- 1M88 10.15am Edinburgh Waverley to Saint Pancras arrive 7.45pm
Last edited:
Actually through trains St Pancras-Leeds did last a lot longer. The 1205 and 1705 from St Pancras were both running through to Leeds in 1974. The up workings were 0916 and 1706 from Leeds.
I have described before, but until the modern era much of the railway income was from freight rather than passenger services, and the Midland was a particular case of this. They had lines to more cities of consequence than any other pre-grouping company, and ran competitive freight services that linked them all. London to Bristol (via Leicester) or Leeds to Liverpool (via the Hope Valley and the part-owned CLC) were typical, and Leeds to London would have been very mainstream for them.
70014IronDuke
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Jun 2015
- Messages
- 3,699
I'd be surprised if any avoided Leeds, certainly not the Scottish trains.
But thanks for looking these up and disabusing me!
Gosh, I'm really surprised these passed under my radar at the time, I can't have been taking so much notice of services as I thought I was.
Presumably these were integrated into the 1 TPH departures from Sheffield, and I would imagine they'd run via Nottingham? This would make sense in that they could be justified as providing some direct connections from the West Riding to Nottingham - and Leicester (Derby being served by NE - SW services).
Of course, this - routeing via Nottingham and the slow Erewash rather than Derby - would make them totally and hopelessly uncompetitive on schedules with GN services to KX!
62484GlenLyon
Member
I commuted between Wellingborough and St.Pancras from 1976 until 1982. A regular homeward bound service was the 16.50 from St.Pancras.
In the 1976/1977 GBTT this train ran via Derby to Leeds, arrive 20.36. In the 1977/78 and 1978/79 GBTTs this train terminated at Nottingham. From the 1979/80 GBTT timetable until the May 1982 GBTT it was extended to Leeds, via Nottingham. It was a slower option to Chesterfield and Sheffield than the 17.20 Master Cutler, though, as that train ran directly via The Erewash Valley route. Of interest is the 6 minutes allowed at Nottingham for the loco swap.
In the 1976/1977 GBTT this train ran via Derby to Leeds, arrive 20.36. In the 1977/78 and 1978/79 GBTTs this train terminated at Nottingham. From the 1979/80 GBTT timetable until the May 1982 GBTT it was extended to Leeds, via Nottingham. It was a slower option to Chesterfield and Sheffield than the 17.20 Master Cutler, though, as that train ran directly via The Erewash Valley route. Of interest is the 6 minutes allowed at Nottingham for the loco swap.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
BR did at one point consider running Nottingham and Sheffield services (separately) from King's Cross rather than St Pancras, which would have provided faster services via the ECML.
But when they realised doing that would undermine the whole MML timetable and business, they decided against the idea.
There were also better uses for the ECML capacity (for longer distance services).
The idea has recently resurfaced for Sheffield (via Retford) in the open access proposals from FirstGroup (Hull Trains), using bi-mode trains.
That was also the time, when BR was at its lowest ebb, of the "Euston only for the north" idea, which was also dropped.
Though the original HS2 plans would have brought that about with a vengeance.
The MML has not had an easy time of it with the major upgrades to the WCML/ECML over the years (the GC fared worse, of course).
But when they realised doing that would undermine the whole MML timetable and business, they decided against the idea.
There were also better uses for the ECML capacity (for longer distance services).
The idea has recently resurfaced for Sheffield (via Retford) in the open access proposals from FirstGroup (Hull Trains), using bi-mode trains.
That was also the time, when BR was at its lowest ebb, of the "Euston only for the north" idea, which was also dropped.
Though the original HS2 plans would have brought that about with a vengeance.
The MML has not had an easy time of it with the major upgrades to the WCML/ECML over the years (the GC fared worse, of course).
I don't know how many reroutings BR did for Midland trains between Sheffield and Leeds/York in the 1970s-80s, but it was several, as colliery subsidence progressively impacted the different available combinations, and then later affected routes which had received investment - some of these being now actually abandoned. The changes generally followed some years of poor timings and slow running. Wakefield Kirkgate seemed to yoyo between being a main line station and a dilapidated unstaffed halt.
It was traditional for Midland route trains into Leeds to continue to Bradford, normally just half the formation and in final steam times hauled by a tank loco. Into Bradford Forster Square, from the north, the onetime Midland terminus, rather than into the ex-GN Exchange station approached from the south, a short walk across the city, where the Kings Cross to Leeds trains did a comparable thing. This was not only London services but also trains on the NE-SW axis; the Devonian from Plymouth ended up in Bradford.
One of the issues with running through from London was the large formation required out of St Pancras, maybe 11 or 12 coaches, progressively dropped off passengers along the way, without regaining as many. Leicester, Derby, Sheffield, and other stops meant few were still on board by the time you got to Leeds, let alone services onward over the Settle & Carlisle, and via Kilmarnock to Glasgow, where loads could have been handled by a single dmu.
It was traditional for Midland route trains into Leeds to continue to Bradford, normally just half the formation and in final steam times hauled by a tank loco. Into Bradford Forster Square, from the north, the onetime Midland terminus, rather than into the ex-GN Exchange station approached from the south, a short walk across the city, where the Kings Cross to Leeds trains did a comparable thing. This was not only London services but also trains on the NE-SW axis; the Devonian from Plymouth ended up in Bradford.
One of the issues with running through from London was the large formation required out of St Pancras, maybe 11 or 12 coaches, progressively dropped off passengers along the way, without regaining as many. Leicester, Derby, Sheffield, and other stops meant few were still on board by the time you got to Leeds, let alone services onward over the Settle & Carlisle, and via Kilmarnock to Glasgow, where loads could have been handled by a single dmu.
Yes, in the up direction they formed 1010 and 1800 from Sheffield. The down trains were in the standard xx05 Sheffield path.
1706 ex Leeds was via Nottingham but 0916 ex Leeds and both down trains were via Derby.
In 1974 none had Wakefield calls so I presume that they used the old Midland route between Sheffield and Leeds.
The Master Cutler/Sheffield Pullman ran between Sheffield and Kings Cross via Retford from 1958 until 1968. For a while in the early 1960s the 0745 Kings Cross-Leeds and 1730 Leeds-Kings Cross also had Sheffield portions detached/attached at Retford.
The Master Cutler only became a Midland train in 1968, having been a Great Central train to/from Marylebone until 1958.
Were the carriage servicing facilities near Forster Square? I cant think where the Midland had such facilities in Leeds.
In a sense it still is. It's aligned to the slow lines, which north of Ford End Road bridge are straight, so when it was moved northwards a couple of hundred metres it didn't change alignment, and it still points pretty much straight at the original bridge over the river on what used to be the Hitchin route. The slow lines kink to the west after going under Ford End Road bridge to head over the second bridge over the river, from the original St Pancras extension; the fast lines, added later, cross the third bridge in a sweeping curve and still haven't quite become parallel to the slows even by the station's current more northerly position.
I did a big thread on this bit of route a while back - called "mining subsidence" or something like that - collecting stuff I'd dug up from various sources over the years. Not only did the definition of the "proper" route switch back and forth several times, but the trains themselves seemed free to choose the "improper" route if they felt like it on the day, for as long as the choice physically remained; certainly when I was passing that way it seemed pretty random which route it would be.
The Midland route of course bypassed Wakefield and reached Leeds via Goose Hill and Woodlesford, although there were some diversions into the back of Wakey Kirk. The main service was trains on the GN route calling at Wessy, ie. ECML trains, and it wasn't something Midland trains were really into until they were all going via Moorthorpe.
The Midland did run via Normanton, which is effectively suburban Wakefield, a longstanding major railway point from early railway times, with the Lancashire & Yorkshire main line coming in to finish at the west end, and the North Eastern to York at the east end. Even very early trains from Newcastle to London used to stop there at an infamous refreshment room, but since BR times it has been an unstaffed halt.
Regarding Bedford, if I am not mistaken the fast lines did not have any platforms until a few decades ago, passing just outside the west side of the station, until (seemingly grudgingly) they were added more recently. As the main Midland 4-track was operated more as Passenger and Goods, rather than Fast and Slow, the resulting need for all passenger trains to weave over and back to the station long led to a poor service there by expresses.
Regarding Bedford, if I am not mistaken the fast lines did not have any platforms until a few decades ago, passing just outside the west side of the station, until (seemingly grudgingly) they were added more recently. As the main Midland 4-track was operated more as Passenger and Goods, rather than Fast and Slow, the resulting need for all passenger trains to weave over and back to the station long led to a poor service there by expresses.
Last edited:
The old station was called Bedford Midland Road. I visited it many times. The name changed when the station moved prior to electrification.
The old Bedford Midland Road station was very close to the Ford End Road Bridge, with the line to/from Hitchin straight ahead. The junction to go to/from St Pancras was a sharp curve to the west, if I remember correctly it had a 20mph speed restriction.
The fast lines could only be seen in the distance from the north end of the down platform of Bedford Midland Road station. The route via the fast lines was 3 chains shorter than the route via the station.
The goods lines between Bedford and Luton were upgraded for passenger trains in advance of the introduction of the Modernisation Plan DMU suburban service.
The hourly "sweeper" service mostly to/from Nottingham or Derby called at Bedford Midland Road, but not much else.
As already indicated, the fast lines were a long way from the old Bedford Midland Road station. The new Bedford Midland station was built much closer to the fast lines, but still did not have platforms on the fast lines. The down fast line platform was added later, there is still no platform on the up fast line.
The Marston Vale trains do not follow the old straight route southwards from the new station, they follow the curve of the St Pancras line until they have passed under Ford End Road, then curve eastwards to rejoin the old route before crossing the river.
And that down fast line platform is responsible for the break down to 110 in what would otherwise be a decently long stretch of 125 — non-platform up fast is 125.
Going back to the earlier station, there were bays north and south on the up side and then the two through lines. The bays were the original through lines.