London ULEZ, Bristol CAZ and Wales 20 mph pushbacks

[Vespa]

As in the thread title, there is a major pushback against such schemes including reports of London "Bladerunners" cutting down ULEZ cameras as fast as they can put them up, damaging and blocking mobile ULEZ camera vehicles.

Bristol CAZ hasn't gone down well with the locals either.

Welsh residents disputes the claim of 20 mph zone being safer and cleaner, they say it's neither also driving at lower speed and higher engine revs creates more pollution.

Manchester has indefinitely postponed their clean air zones in the face of potential major public opposition.


The general consensus is that it's just a revenue generator and nothing to do with saving the planet, I once saw a poster with Khan in London "Pay me £12.50 and you can pollute for 24 hours"

Reports are that once the low hanging fruits have gone, London will be moving over to pay per mile affecting all cars...

I have never seen the public so fired up over this, the last time was the Poll Tax Riots....

It seems we are looking at a major civil disobedience campaign, we live in interesting times...

I personally I think the financial burden is very much on the lower end of the income bracket who can least afford the change.

 

[stuu]

Citation please.

Noisy people on the Internet is very different to "general consensus".

Here's an opinion poll (August, support in purple, oppose in red)

 

[Vespa]

Citation please.

Noisy people on the Internet is very different to "general consensus".

Here's an opinion poll (August, support in purple, oppose in red)

View attachment 143469

I'm only seeing three coloured bars with no reference.

 

[Dai Corner]

A YouGov poll at the beginning of September (before the measures came in last Sunday) put support for the 20mph limit in Wales at 31%. 66% were against and 6% undecided

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Results_BarnCymru_September2023_W1.pdf

 

[geoffk]

A YouGov poll at the beginning of September (before the measures came in last Sunday) put support for the 20mph limit in Wales at 31%. 66% were against and 6% undecided

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Results_BarnCymru_September2023_W1.pdf

I wonder if bus operators in Wales were given enough notice of the change as major rescheduling would have been required.

 

[jon0844]

I have never seen the public so fired up over this, the last time was the Poll Tax Riots....

It seems we are looking at a major civil disobedience campaign, we live in interesting times...

There is no riot, so - no - it isn't anything like the Poll Tax riots.

Contrary to what the Daily Mail and GB News might be telling everyone, not all of Wales is now 20mph.

 

[Dai Corner]

I wonder if bus operators in Wales were given enough notice of the change as major rescheduling would have been required.

There's a thread on that here

20mph in Wales, change to bus timetables?

Any routes have significant lengthening of their scheduled times due to not being able to go at 30?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Noddy]

A YouGov poll at the beginning of September (before the measures came in last Sunday) put support for the 20mph limit in Wales at 31%. 66% were against and 6% undecided

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Results_BarnCymru_September2023_W1.pdf

A Redfield and Wilton poll published on the 20 September (Wednesday) says more people support the 20mph limit than oppose by 46% to 34%.

Do Welsh voters support or oppose the new 20mph speed limit on roads where cars mix with pedestrians and cyclists? (16-17 September) Support 46% Oppose 34%

https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1704480530308505610

 

[MotCO]

I, for one, must admit having a 20mph limit in Wales would put me off holidaying in Wales - I wonder if they have factored in the loss of tourism income?


There is also a report of a mobile ULEZ camera van receiving a parking ticket in Sidcup after being reprted by a resident - such is their popularity! https://www.mylondon.news/news/transport/tfl-mobile-ulez-camera-van-27752453

 

[Dai Corner]

I, for one, must admit having a 20mph limit in Wales would put me off holidaying in Wales - I wonder if they have factored in the loss of tourism income?

That would be welcomed by some groups.

 

[lachlan]

In my experience with the Bristol CAZ, most people have cars that can pass through without paying. Those who don’t just drive around it.

I, for one, must admit having a 20mph limit in Wales would put me off holidaying in Wales - I wonder if they have factored in the loss of tourism income?

Really? Unless you’re driving into the middle of Cardiff, most of the time you’ll be on motorways or rural roads unaffected by the 20 mph zone surely?

 

[nlogax]

I have never seen the public so fired up over this, the last time was the Poll Tax Riots....

This isn't the poll tax. We won't be seeing rioting in the streets over low emission zones and 20mph speed limits. You're vastly overstating the opposition to their implementation.

 

[Dai Corner]

Deleted

 

[MotCO]

In my experience with the Bristol CAZ, most people have cars that can pass through without paying. Those who don’t just drive around it.

Really? Unless you’re driving into the middle of Cardiff, most of the time you’ll be on motorways or rural roads unaffected by the 20 mph zone surely?

Well, the reporting of it suggests all roads bar motorways will be 20mph unless exempted by local authorities. Which implies most roads will be affected. If we are talking about 20 mph zones only being in residential areas, then the PR has been abysmal.

 

[Dai Corner]

Well, the reporting of it suggests all roads bar motorways will be 20mph unless exempted by local authorities. Which implies most roads will be affected. If we are talking about 20 mph zones only being in residential areas, then the PR has been abysmal.

No. Only roads that were previously 30mph are now 20, and many which aren't residential have been exempted by local authorities.

 

[jon0844]

Well, the reporting of it suggests all roads bar motorways will be 20mph unless exempted by local authorities. Which implies most roads will be affected. If we are talking about 20 mph zones only being in residential areas, then the PR has been abysmal.

The reporting in the media has been abysmal, and it's either because if ignorance, or deliberate to stir people up.

 

[Joe Paxton]

And when are they going to put the lead back in our petrol?

Time for a campaign to reinstate 4-star.

Tetraethyllead-heads unite!

 

[stuu]

I'm only seeing three coloured bars with no reference.

I wrote them down. Apologies if you are colour blind - the highest bar is support.

I would note the anti-20mph protest in Cardiff on Saturday got a massive turnout of about 100 people.

 

[Vespa]

I wrote them down. Apologies if you are colour blind - the highest bar is support.

I would note the anti-20mph protest in Cardiff on Saturday got a massive turnout of about 100 people.

Nothing to do with colour blind, there is little information attached to the bars you have offered.

I'm neither an eco zealot or a petrol head per se.


I'm just putting this to the floor for an open discussion of personal experiences of the charging zones and Welsh 20mph, including the impact personally or financially.

I haven't yet entered any of these zones so I can't form a personal opinion of my experience.

It's certainly out in the news media without my needing to add a link, the term "Bladerunners" are certainly trending.

 

[Eyersey468]

A YouGov poll at the beginning of September (before the measures came in last Sunday) put support for the 20mph limit in Wales at 31%. 66% were against and 6% undecided

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Results_BarnCymru_September2023_W1.pdf

Let's not forget though YouGov have a habit of asking questions in such a way to get the answer they want. We saw this with a certain virus and net zero

 

[Noddy]

Let's not forget though YouGov have a habit of asking questions in such a way to get the answer they want. We saw this with a certain virus and net zero

If you looked at the link you would see they asked a perfectly reasonable question:

In September, the default speed limit in residential areas in Wales is falling from 30mph to 20mph. To what extent do you support or oppose this speed limit reduction?

Total support 33%
Total oppose 61%
Don’t know 6%


The Redfield and Wilton survey asked a more leading question:

To what extent, if at all, do you support the Welsh Government’s decision to impose a default 20mph speed limit on roads where cars mix with cyclists and pedestrians?

(My bold and italics)

Total support 46%
Total oppose 34%
Don’t know ?

Using the word impose clearly has negative connotations, especially when linked to the government, but it could be argued that the last bit of the question is not clearly worded either.

However I would point out that the R+W survey is more recent so give a more accurate reflection of where people stand after reading all the publicity. I’m certainly in favour and I regularly use these roads in Wales.

 

[bluenoxid]

Sadly, dramatic video of things like ULEZ cameras being chopped up tend to trend, so they end up becoming more apparent than they actually are.

 

[Meerkat]

Really? Unless you’re driving into the middle of Cardiff, most of the time you’ll be on motorways or rural roads unaffected by the 20 mph zone surely?

I was thinking about this when driving about the other day. There’s actually an awful lot of 30mph in suburban areas. Can be miles and miles of it. That’s a passable trundle if the roads are narrow and busy, but 20mph is really really slow - a third longer journey every time is going to add up.
AIUI getting exemptions in Wales would be hard work - lots of hoops to jump through and the militants like cycling groups are going to object as routine. The irony of course being that the speed limits don’t apply to cyclists so they can whizz through!

 

[david1212]

I, for one, must admit having a 20mph limit in Wales would put me off holidaying in Wales - I wonder if they have factored in the loss of tourism income?
.....

While early days and need time to see where 30mph gets re-instated it is a major consideration. Getting around Mid & North Wales is not exactly fast anyway. I wonder how much time would be added to e.g. Aberdyfi to Porthmadog, Porthmadog to Abersoch, Bala to Porthmadog, the 'back road' B5106 Betws-y-Coed to Conwy plus the risk of loosing concentration and getting a ticket.

That would be welcomed by some groups.

OT but when I considered Mid & North Wales for my holiday this year knowing tourists are not welcome by more than a very small minority was a factor in deciding going elsewhere. Back in 2020 and 2021 then more understandable.

 

[stuu]

While early days and need time to see where 30mph gets re-instated it is a major consideration. Getting around Mid & North Wales is not exactly fast anyway. I wonder how much time would be added to e.g. Aberdyfi to Porthmadog, Porthmadog to Abersoch, Bala to Porthmadog, the 'back road' B5106 Betws-y-Coed to Conwy plus the risk of loosing concentration and getting a ticket.

Hardly any. Bala to Porthmadog for example has about 3 miles of 20mph speed limits. That will add a maximum of 3 minutes to the journey. Less than if you got stuck behind a tractor

 

[Ediswan]

I wonder how much time would be added to e.g. Aberdyfi to Porthmadog, Porthmadog to Abersoch, Bala to Porthmadog, the 'back road' B5106 Betws-y-Coed to Conwy plus the risk of loosing concentration and getting a ticket.

There is a map here:
https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/
There are no 20mph limits shown on the B5106.

 

[ScotGG]

A lot of this comes from Facebook which now seems the preserve of miserable old folks. Most people with half a brain no longer use the site.

That echo chamber is repeated in the Daily Express (which is dying on its a***), GB News (which gets about 0.3 per cent of total viewers) and shock jocks on talk radio.

They think they speak for most. They don't.

In my experience with the Bristol CAZ, most people have cars that can pass through without paying. Those who don’t just drive around it.

Really? Unless you’re driving into the middle of Cardiff, most of the time you’ll be on motorways or rural roads unaffected by the 20 mph zone surely?

They clearly haven't spent more than a second looking into it as 20 mph doesn't cover many roads.

Then again they link to the dismal clickbait factory that is MyLondon so little surprise knowledge is limited.

Well, the reporting of it suggests all roads bar motorways will be 20mph unless exempted by local authorities. Which implies most roads will be affected. If we are talking about 20 mph zones only being in residential areas, then the PR has been abysmal.

You can google and find out the reality in seconds

You really need to read better sources of info eg not MyLondon and sites like that.

 

[PTR 444]

No. Only roads that were previously 30mph are now 20, and many which aren't residential have been exempted by local authorities.

Slightly off topic but does this mean that there are now no 30mph roads whatsoever in Wales?

Also coming from an outsider, has the legislation also changed so that any road in a built-up area with street lights is now default 20mph if there are no repeater signs stating otherwise?

If so, this would presumably mean any road which reverts back to 30mph would need repeater signs.

If not, that’s a hell of a lot of new 20mph signs!

 

[stuu]

Slightly off topic but does this mean that there are now no 30mph roads whatsoever in Wales?

Also coming from an outsider, has the legislation also changed so that any road in a built-up area with street lights is now default 20mph if there are no repeater signs stating otherwise?

If so, this would presumably mean any road which reverts back to 30mph would need repeater signs.

If not, that’s a hell of a lot of new 20mph signs!

No - lots of major roads in urban areas have 30mph limits - see the map in post 26

Yes - default is now 20, so streetlights = 20. Presumably yes, 30mph roads now need repeaters

 

[Dai Corner]

If not, that’s a hell of a lot of new 20mph signs!

There are new signs wherever the limit changes between 20 and 30mph, of course. Several thousand at least. They were erected over the previous few months but covered by 'sign not in use' stickers until the big day. No doubt many highways staff and contractors earned some useful overtime peeling them off!