London ULEZ, Bristol CAZ and Wales 20 mph pushbacks

[AM9]

Not in leafy outer London, it's definitely not about pollution. Find some data that proves otherwise that hasn't come from Imperial College and/or been funded by TfL.

So drivers pay car tax, road tax, fuel tax, VAT and in future parking tax and moving tax? I guess for EVs there will also be not plugging it into the grid tax and excessive weight per axle tax?

All reduction of higher polluting vehicles reduces the health impact, there is no level of beneficial pollution.
As it stands, when there is no need to drive IC vehicles, motoring on public streets will attract:
'car tax' as VED is sometimes called,

there is no such thing as 'road tax', the public highway is funded entirely through general taxation​

'Fuel tax' is a duty on fuel for road use of hydrocarbon fuels, clearly not relevant to EV drivers​

VAT is general taxation, payable on everything except food and public transport, - just what is needed to encourage more responsible travel modes​

Parking charges are for exclusive occupation of land or road space, they are subject to VAT like almost everything else​

There's no such thing as 'moving tax', but there will be a charge proportional to the environmental damage/congestion/disturbance caused by vehicles, particularly where other less damaging modes/routes are available.​

So there's no point in motorists wallowing in victimhood when being charged for the consequences of their activities, - none of which non-motorists should be expected to pay.

 

[Noddy]

Not in leafy outer London, it's definitely not about pollution. Find some data that proves otherwise that hasn't come from Imperial College and/or been funded by TfL.

So drivers pay car tax, road tax, fuel tax, VAT and in future parking tax and moving tax? I guess for EVs there will also be not plugging it into the grid tax and excessive weight per axle tax?

According to Our World in Data the UK average death rate from air pollution was 11.4 people per hundred thousand in 2018 (the last year they have figures for). If you assume that Outer London meets the criteria for ‘average’, and times that by its population of 5.3 million that’s just over 600 deaths per year caused by air pollution. Now I fully accept that Outer London may not be average-certainly bits will be higher and bits will be lower. But regardless we are still talking of 100s of people dying every year as a result of air pollution.

Death rate from air pollution

Death rates are given as the number of attributed deaths from pollution per 100,000 population. These rates are age-standardized, meaning they assume a constant age structure of the population: this allows for comparison between countries and over time.

ourworldindata.org

Death rate from air pollution,
United Kingdom, 1990 to 2018​

Death rates are given as the number of attributed deaths from pollution per 100,000 population. These rates are age-standardized, meaning they assume a constant age structure of the population: this allows for comparison between countries and over time.

 

[Dai Corner]

According to Our World in Data the UK average death rate from air pollution was 11.4 people per hundred thousand in 2018 (the last year they have figures for). If you assume that Outer London meets the criteria for ‘average’, and times that by its population of 5.3 million that’s just over 600 deaths per year caused by air pollution. Now I fully accept that Outer London may not be average-certainly bits will be higher and bits will be lower. But regardless we are still talking of 100s of people dying every year as a result of air pollution.

Death rate from air pollution

Death rates are given as the number of attributed deaths from pollution per 100,000 population. These rates are age-standardized, meaning they assume a constant age structure of the population: this allows for comparison between countries and over time.

ourworldindata.org

I wonder how many lives were saved by polluting activities like collecting/delivering food, heating homes, travelling to care for vulnerable relatives/clients and going to medical appointments?

 

[talldave]

All reduction of higher polluting vehicles reduces the health impact, there is no level of beneficial pollution.
As it stands, when there is no need to drive IC vehicles, motoring on public streets will attract:
'car tax' as VED is sometimes called,

there is no such thing as 'road tax', the public highway is funded entirely through general taxation​

'Fuel tax' is a duty on fuel for road use of hydrocarbon fuels, clearly not relevant to EV drivers​

VAT is general taxation, payable on everything except food and public transport, - just what is needed to encourage more responsible travel modes​

Parking charges are for exclusive occupation of land or road space, they are subject to VAT like almost everything else​

There's no such thing as 'moving tax', but there will be a charge proportional to the environmental damage/congestion/disturbance caused by vehicles, particularly where other less damaging modes/routes are available.​

So there's no point in motorists wallowing in victimhood when being charged for the consequences of their activities, - none of which non-motorists should be expected to pay.

My comments on future taxes were speculative - "parking" meaning a charge for leaving your car anywhere even on a private driveway (an extension of workplace tax charges on parking), and "moving" meaning pay per mile charges. I forgot "ULEZ" type taxes where you're punished for not owning the right type of vehicle that meets the current year's woke-spec (ie: hybrids are going to be hammered next).

You missed my point on ULEZ - I await the real world evidence using actual measured data that it's resulted in a reduction in pollution. For example, my car's still in use and I'm not sure how £12.50 a day (were I paying it) improves air quality.

 

[jon81uk]

You missed my point on ULEZ - I await the real world evidence using actual measured data that it's resulted in a reduction in pollution. For example, my car's still in use and I'm not sure how £12.50 a day (were I paying it) improves air quality.

The charge is a deterrent to put people off from using their more-polluting cars to drive into urban errors. Same as other charges are deterrents from doing other things, such as high taxation on cirgarettes. The money itself doesn't stop pollution, it is merely a stick to encourage people to change their behaviour.

There is plenty of evidence of the positive impact of the original ULEZ.
From https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminstitute/news/the-truth-about-londons-ultra-low-emission-zone/

A study by researchers at Imperial College London published in the journal Environmental Research Letters in November 2021 assessed the impact of the ULEZ in the first five to eight weeks after it was introduced in April 2019. This analysis showed widespread, but relatively small, reductions, and some increases, in air pollution concentrations across the ULEZ zone. Overall, the authors found an average reduction of less than 3% in nitrogen dioxide levels, and insignificant changes in PM2.5 concentrations.

A further study, published in the Journal of Environmental Health in July 2022, found statistically significant reductions in nitrogen dioxide levels in the first 90 days after the introduction of the ULEZ at 16 sites across London, compared with the same period in 2018.

Another study, published in the journal Atmospheric Pollution Research in August 2022, examined the impact of ULEZ in its first year, finding a cut in nitrogen dioxide concentrations of about 12% inside the zone compared with the year before its implementation.

A review of studies published in July 2023 in The Lancet Public Health on low emission zones around the world (not including London’s ULEZ) found positive air pollution-related health outcomes, with the most consistent effect being on cardiovascular disease.

 

[Ted633]

But has that improvement in air quality happened due to ULEZ, or would it have happened anyway as older, more polluting cars are scrapped and replaced by cleaner alternatives.
For example, a study quoted above gives that the first year of ULEZ gave a 12% reduction in NOx from the year before. That's great, but what was the reduction the year before that?
This should give the answer, but I can't open the download file unless I subscribe to something.

NOx Levels

www.london.gov.uk

 

[WelshBluebird]

For example, my car's still in use and I'm not sure how £12.50 a day (were I paying it) improves air quality.

I'd say it is pretty obvious that the charge is meant as a deterrent, and whilst you may pay it for example, other people won't and so will either drive a different way avoiding the area or will change to a cleaner mode of transport. Purposefully ignoring that seems odd to say the least.

 

[AM9]

...you're punished for not owning the right type of vehicle that meets the current year's woke-spec ...

Oh dear, another "anything I don't like is Woke" protagonist. Luckily the London Mayor ignored this sort of nonsence and just got on with trying to bring emissions in greater London down to witin legal limits, and administrations in quite a few other UK cities and towns are also committed to making progress on that. You can rant as much as you like, change is coming and once the extremist right-wing UK Government is flushed out of power, progress will at least be backed at UK level.
So apart from damaging some surveillance kit and arguing the toss over minutae of enforcement of the ULEZ, all they are doing is revealing weak links in the process so that the Mayor's office can tightened them up quicker. Well done!

 

[greyman42]

change is coming and once the extremist right-wing UK Government is flushed out of power,

You don't half talk some rubbish.

 

[AM9]

You don't half talk some rubbish.

Wait and see.

 

[Dai Corner]

You don't half talk some rubbish.

It all depends on perspective. From, say, a Corbynist one any UK Government likely to be elected is going to appear right wing.

We do have a fairly left-wing Welsh Government with a Corbynist First Minister.

 

[greyman42]

Wait and see.

We do not have an extremist right wing government.

 

[AM9]

We do not have an extremist right wing government.

What you call it depends on where you stand.

 

[talldave]

Oh dear, another "anything I don't like is Woke" protagonist. Luckily the London Mayor ignored this sort of nonsence and just got on with trying to bring emissions in greater London down to witin legal limits, and administrations in quite a few other UK cities and towns are also committed to making progress on that. You can rant as much as you like, change is coming and once the extremist right-wing UK Government is flushed out of power, progress will at least be backed at UK level.
So apart from damaging some surveillance kit and arguing the toss over minutae of enforcement of the ULEZ, all they are doing is revealing weak links in the process so that the Mayor's office can tightened them up quicker. Well done!

Ah yes, the London Mayor that 83% of Londoners didn't vote for. The London Mayor who lied about the expansion of ULEZ. The London Mayor who paid for research "models" to support his lies. The London Mayor who's currently pretending he doesn’t know anything about his own road pricing project. That London Mayor??

So you're confident that a Labour government will wreck the whole of the UK, in a similar way as they're currently wrecking Wales? Your tone sounds just an incy bit threateny - hi-vis Covid Marshall style. I wasn't intimidated by them and I'm not intimidated by you.

 

[PeterC]

We do not have an extremist right wing

Ah yes, the London Mayor that 83% of Londoners didn't vote for. The London Mayor who lied about the expansion of ULEZ. The London Mayor who paid for research "models" to support his lies. The London Mayor who's currently pretending he doesn’t know anything about his own road pricing project. That London Mayor??

So you're confident that a Labour government will wreck the whole of the UK, in a similar way as they're currently wrecking Wales? Your tone sounds just an incy bit threateny - hi-vis Covid Marshall style. I wasn't intimidated by them and I'm not intimidated by you.

The mayor who got the most votes. A democratic mandate as sound as that held by our present government.

 

[AM9]

Ah yes, the London Mayor that 83% of Londoners didn't vote for. The London Mayor who lied about the expansion of ULEZ. The London Mayor who paid for research "models" to support his lies. The London Mayor who's currently pretending he doesn’t know anything about his own road pricing project. That London Mayor??

Yes the mayor who is actually in the drving seat as we speak. I didn't vote fo him or any mayor as I don't live in the GLA, but I fully respect that he is legitimately in post.

So you're confident that a Labour government will wreck the whole of the UK, in a similar way as they're currently wrecking Wales? Your tone sounds just an incy bit threateny - hi-vis Covid Marshall style. I wasn't intimidated by them and I'm not intimidated by you.

If you do feel that my posts in this thread are intimidating, rather than make personal accusations here I suggest that you report it to the mods.

 

[The Ham]

Ah yes, the London Mayor that 83% of Londoners didn't vote for. The London Mayor who lied about the expansion of ULEZ. The London Mayor who paid for research "models" to support his lies. The London Mayor who's currently pretending he doesn’t know anything about his own road pricing project. That London Mayor??

So you're confident that a Labour government will wreck the whole of the UK, in a similar way as they're currently wrecking Wales? Your tone sounds just an incy bit threateny - hi-vis Covid Marshall style. I wasn't intimidated by them and I'm not intimidated by you.

That's still more than who voted for Sunak...

...which even the Tory Party members didn't actually want when they had a vote on the matter.

 

[bramling]

What you call it depends on where you stand.

Most people I know regard this government as an (unwelcome) extension of Brownism. Despite all the bluster, what we seem to have at the moment underneath it all is arguably a completely chaotic and muddled version of New Labour.

 

[AM9]

Most people I know regard this government as an (unwelcome) extension of Brownism. Despite all the bluster, what we seem to have at the moment underneath it all is arguably a completely chaotic and muddled version of New Labour.

It would seem that the people you know have a different view of the government to those that I know. I would agree that there is little order in its machinations, there is a constant core of players that drag it back to a right-wing agenda, euphemistically referred to as 'the Conservative way'.

 

[talldave]

That's still more than who voted for Sunak...

...which even the Tory Party members didn't actually want when they had a vote on the matter.

Agreed! But don't get me started on the man who's arrogance led to the pointless and avoidable suicides of many self-employed taxpayers.

Both of the main parties are a waste of space. But until there's a viable alternative we don't stand a chance and even then there are too many people who will vote red or blue come what may.

London's a lost cause whilst there are so many candidates.

 

[stuu]

Most people I know regard this government as an (unwelcome) extension of Brownism. Despite all the bluster, what we seem to have at the moment underneath it all is arguably a completely chaotic and muddled version of New Labour.

Brownism! How anyone can come to that conclusion with this shower is beyond me. Less money for health, education, children's services, local authority discretionary spending down 40% since 2010.

Which policies exactly have any resemblance to anything under Brown?

 

[sprunt]

Brownism! How anyone can come to that conclusion with this shower is beyond me.

You remember, when Gordon Brown went on and on about anyone he didn't like being woke and had tantrums about the Elgin marbles.

 

[Ediswan]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67543290

One road in Wales now has eight speed limit changes in less than two miles following the switch to 20mph.
The A4222 in Aberthin, Vale of Glamorgan, includes stretches of 40mph and 60mph in the space of 1.8 miles (2.9km).

All according to the new rules apparently. What the article does not say is how many speed limit changes there were before the 20mph sections were added.

 

[Bikeman78]

No. Only roads that were previously 30mph are now 20, and many which aren't residential have been exempted by local authorities.

Some roads change from 20 to 30 part way. There are roads where I have genuinely no idea whether they are 20 or 30 now. Not that it really bothers me on my bike. In the car I just pass speed cameras at 20 unless I know it's definitely 30.

 

[bramling]

It would seem that the people you know have a different view of the government to those that I know. I would agree that there is little order in its machinations, there is a constant core of players that drag it back to a right-wing agenda, euphemistically referred to as 'the Conservative way'.

I guess we can probably conclude that this government seems to be pleasing pretty much nobody!

 

[DC1989]

Latest polls have Labour on 50% and conservatives on 23% for the London mayoral election

ULEZ push back was always a storm in a teacup and it's absolutely hilarious the Rishi Sunak tore up his entire election strategy based on narrowly winning a safe seat a few weeks before implementation

 

[Krokodil]

Latest polls have Labour on 50% and conservatives on 23% for the London mayoral election

ULEZ push back was always a storm in a teacup and it's absolutely hilarious the Rishi Sunak tore up his entire election strategy based on narrowly winning a safe seat a few weeks before implementation

It would be funny if he wasn't so intent on cutting rail investment in favour of road.

 

[The Ham]

It would be funny if he wasn't so intent on cutting rail investment in favour of road.

Which will just make the roads more congested.

 

[Krokodil]

Which will just make the roads more congested.

Of course it will. The Texans widened the Katy Freeway to 23 lanes and congestion just got worse.