The Eastbourne diversion was always a bit curious. Was the demand genuinely to Eastbourne rather than Brighton, or was it to keep it out of the way? The Manchester working went there as well as I recall.
Eastbourne was still the destination in 1996.
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Longer Distance Service You Didn't Expect Without Changing
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Eastbourne was still the destination in 1996.
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Thank you, you're right on not being electrically-hauled. My timetables back to 1960 bear this out also.
No, there wasn't a run-round in platforms 1-4. I posted the pre-and post-1960 layout previously so I'll find a link for that. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/line-pairings-on-a-4-track-railway.241547/#post-6003988
EDIT Attached is the timetable for 1M72 in 1961 (11/9/61 to 17/6/62 or until further notice), when it went to Manchester Central (and then Liverpool) and presumably changed locos at Guide Bridge although it doesn't say "Elec".
[To anyone not familiar with the Woodhead electrification opened in 1954, the line to Manchester London Road - later Piccadilly - was electrified but the line to Manchester Central was only electrified as far as Reddish Depot.]
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Accy wasn't suited for running round, Rose Grove was.
Eastbourne had much more holiday accommodation for that particular market - the train was a sort-of-successor to the famed SAGA specials of the 70s.
Rose grove used to be a major rail centre. Look at some maps from between the wars. Try the National Library for Scotland maps web site. Gannow Collery was close by and there were coke ovens.
BluePenguin
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Thanks for the link. I had participated in that discussion but not looked at the useful Manchester Piccadilly map.
And thanks for the WTT extract too. It also shows the light engine detached at Guide Bridge off 1E78 going back to Manchester Central.
Eastbourne had summer Saturday trains in the early 1960s including a train to/from Manchester Piccadilly via the Great Central.
In the opposite direction, I remember arriving at Brighton and, being unaware, seeing a 158 there showing destination of Great Malvern. Obviously just a mistake ...
I understand it was really a service to Worcester, that got extended to Malvern as an Orcats Raid on the significant number of local journeys there. It was renowned for arriving at Worcester late, and with a minimal (10 minutes?) turnround at Malvern after a run of 4 hours or more, and now a return of the same, was commonly cancelled on that last leg so it could return from Worcester on time.
Those 1950s holiday trains may also have got late, but at least they didn't then throw the passengers out on the last leg.
SouthEastBuses
On Moderation
When I was a young kid, I was surprised to discover that Virgin Trains (back then, now CrossCountry) also served Gatwick Airport, and had direct trains to Manchester Piccadilly! This might have explained why I'd always see Voyagers at stations like Brighton, Gatwick Airport and East Croydon!
Sadly, despite the fact that Virgin also served Gatwick Airport (and would be more convenient for us in Horsham), when we went to Manchester, we decided to go via London instead and then ride a Virgin Pendolino up to Manchester from there.
It's a shame that the XC service from West Sussex to Manchester no longer exists, a very useful link! However, with an increase of trains and demand from London, plus the rather limited capacity the Brighton Mainline has, it's understandable why XC withdrew the Manchester-Brighton service. After all, if you don't want to get the tube to London Euston (understandable if you have tons of heavy luggage), you can always get a train to East Croydon, then the Southern service to Watford Junction, and then any Avanti West Coast long distance train from there.
Sadly, despite the fact that Virgin also served Gatwick Airport (and would be more convenient for us in Horsham), when we went to Manchester, we decided to go via London instead and then ride a Virgin Pendolino up to Manchester from there.
It's a shame that the XC service from West Sussex to Manchester no longer exists, a very useful link! However, with an increase of trains and demand from London, plus the rather limited capacity the Brighton Mainline has, it's understandable why XC withdrew the Manchester-Brighton service. After all, if you don't want to get the tube to London Euston (understandable if you have tons of heavy luggage), you can always get a train to East Croydon, then the Southern service to Watford Junction, and then any Avanti West Coast long distance train from there.
It isn't really. It would have taken nearly twice the time.
SouthEastBuses
On Moderation
Are you saying that it would have been a longer journey from Horsham to Manchester if we decided to get the XC service from Gatwick Airport rather than go via London Euston?
Yes. By some margin. About 5 hours from Gatwick to Manchester via Reading / Birmingham on a through train.
SouthEastBuses
On Moderation
When I grew up and learnt more about this now withdrawn service and its routing, that would make perfect sense. The XC route would take a much lengthier diversion via Reading, Oxford, Banbury and Birmingham. This makes you wonder if the Brighton line was effectively a second branch of the core Reading-Manchester service (with Bournemouth being the first branch which still happens to be exist today), or, an extension of what is now the Manchester-Reading shorts
This now might make sense as to why we travelled via London Euston instead!
BluePenguin
On Moderation
Is that because it would have stopped more? Or was the line slower that way?
I guess they had appropriate turnaround time so could proceed to their destination without risking the return leg being delayed.
Certainly a long-distance service of this nature "ought" to have a turnaround time of at least 30 mins, one might think.
D6130
Established Member
Both.
I would imagine that it was deliberately introduced to provide a through service from Brighton and, particularly, Gatwick to the Midlands and the North. Was introduced in about 1979 I believe and was certainly well-bedded-in during the mid 80s which was my peak of enthusiasm for XC during the BR era.
For a while it even went via Willesden and the WCML, in the 1986 timetable, calling at Clapham Junction and thus offering up all sorts of journey opportunities for South London and Surrey.
I would imagine Thameslink played a significant part in the reduction of importance of these Brighton XC services as it then became less of a hassle to travel north via London, with Euston not far from Kings Cross/St Pancras.
When i got to Gt Malvern station the train was there engines off and most of the lights off. Crew were sat outside Lady Foleys tearoom drinking tea and scoffing cake.
No points at Gt Malvern. Trains go to Malvern Wells to reverse.
Some of the route is slower, particularly between East Croydon and Acton Main Line (or indeed via Guildford when it went that way) but there is very little opportunity to run at more than 100mph anywhere. There are more stops, and it is longer.
The CrossCountry service was organised differently before 2008, so it doesn't quite work like that. From 2003 to 2008, effectively Bournemouth went alternately to the North East and North West, with Reading to Manchester a separate hourly service, that had one or two extensions to Brighton.
It was the 2008 changes that simplified CrossCountry to four core routes - ie
Bristol to Manchester
Bournemouth to Manchester
Reading to Newcastle
Plymouth to Edinburgh
SouthEastBuses
On Moderation
Ahh I see. So basically, from what you said, I'm assuming that Bournemouth would have been 1tph, of which 1tp2h to Manchester and 1tp2h to Newcastle or Edinburgh. And Reading-Manchester was a completely different route that had extensions to Brighton. Which meant that between Reading and Birmingham you'd have a combined frequency of 2tph.
Did XC serve Guildford before 2008, and if yes were they the other Reading-Manchester extensions?
D1537
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Another one which I forgot was the 0700(ish) 1M10 SO Paddington-Llandudno and afternoon return which ran in at least 1986 and 1987. I doubt if the stops between Reading and Leamington had had a direct North Wales service for quite a while.
A real oddity was 1V87 1632 Wolverhampton-Paddington (later on 1609 Stafford-Paddington) in 1987 and 1988 which stopped at Lea Hall and Marston Green, saving those very few passengers travelling from one of those stations to the Thames Valley from having to change at Birmingham International.
A real oddity was 1V87 1632 Wolverhampton-Paddington (later on 1609 Stafford-Paddington) in 1987 and 1988 which stopped at Lea Hall and Marston Green, saving those very few passengers travelling from one of those stations to the Thames Valley from having to change at Birmingham International.
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As I recall it (from magazines of the era) the main driver in cutting the service back from Liverpool to Manchester (and thus Piccadilly rather than Central) was to use one set of stock out and back within the day, not possible with the Liverpool extension. Using a diesel throughout was a coincidental issue, but certainly avoided the previous loco changes at Sheffield, and at Guide Bridge, and at Manchester Central. When the change was made the principal news focus was on using a diesel through Woodhead, which had apparently not seen anything not electric since it opened 10 years beforehand.
It's surprising that the Class 37 could do the entire 12-hour circuit from Harwich and back without refuelling, or adding boiler water in winter.
There used to be a 23:30 Manchester-Brighton, which I used a couple of times - good for a relatively cheap way of getting to London for an early start such as a railtour. I once used it when I had to get to Gatwick for real, I remember I got off at Reading at some unpleasant hour and waited for an arrival from Plymouth which my brother was on and we both then went together to Gatwick on the service via Guildford.
WesternLancer
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Idly reading the A-Z departure posters at Derby circa 1989 I spotted a through train to Brighton listed as I think Sundays only.
As it was a journey I needed to make occasionally I made a plan to use the train. Not sure it was even clear to me at the time what route it took, but it was certainly circuitous when I got on it. Loco hauled and MkII coaches IIRC, route was, I think,
Derby - B'ham - Worcester (not sure which way - this being the most indirect bit of the thing) - Evesham - Oxford - Reading - Guildford - Gatwick - Brighton
But we had a loco failure at some point after Guildford (maybe near Redhill?) so the train never made it the whole way.
I'd be interested in the history of this train and how long it ran for / why it was operated and how long for if anyone knows.
As it was a journey I needed to make occasionally I made a plan to use the train. Not sure it was even clear to me at the time what route it took, but it was certainly circuitous when I got on it. Loco hauled and MkII coaches IIRC, route was, I think,
Derby - B'ham - Worcester (not sure which way - this being the most indirect bit of the thing) - Evesham - Oxford - Reading - Guildford - Gatwick - Brighton
But we had a loco failure at some point after Guildford (maybe near Redhill?) so the train never made it the whole way.
I'd be interested in the history of this train and how long it ran for / why it was operated and how long for if anyone knows.
Winter 2006 XC northbound timetable from Reading
'Bournemouth side' of the hour
0610 Manchester (0511 SOU-MAN)
0710 Edinburgh (0615 SOU-EDB via LDS/NCL)
0810 Edinburgh (0630 BMH-EDB via MAN)
0910 Edinburgh (0730 BMH-EDB via LDS/NCL)
1010 Manchester (0846 BMH-MAN)
1110 Edinburgh (0946 BMH-EDB via LDS/NCL)
1210 Edinburgh (1046 BMH-EDB via MAN
1310 Glasgow (1146 BMH-GLC via LDS/NCL)
1410 Manchester (1246 BMH-MAN)
1510 Edinburgh (1346 BMH-EDB via LDS/NCL)
1610 Edinburgh (1446 BMH-EDB via MAN)
1710 Newcastle (1546 BMH-NCL via LDS)
1810 Manchester (1646 BMH-MAN)
1910 Leeds (1746 BMH-LDS)
2010 Manchester (1846 BMH-MAN)
2110 Birmingham (1946 BMH-BHM)
'Reading side' of the hour
0640 Manchester (0515 GTW-MAN via GLD)
0740 Manchester (0545 GTW-MAN via GLD)
0840 Manchester (0840 RDG-MAN)
0940 Manchester (0940 RDG-MAN)
1040 Manchester (1040 RDG-MAN)
1140 Manchester (0921 BTN-MAM via KPA)
1240 Manchester (1240 RDG-MAN)
1340 Manchester (1340 RDG-MAN)
1440 Manchester (1440 RDG-MAN)
1540 Manchester (1540 RDG-MAN)
1640 Manchester (1422 BTN-MAN via KPA)
1740 Manchester (1740 RDG-MAN)
1840 Manchester (1757 GLD-MAN)
1940 Manchester (1940 RDG-MAN)
The purpose of the odd Guildford extension in the evening was to balance the gap between the northbound and southbound Brighton services.
BMH = Birmingham, SOU = Southampton Central, BTN = Brighton, GTW = Gatwick Airport, GLD = Guildford, KPA = Kensington Olympia, RDG = Reading, BHM = Birmingham New Street, MAN = Manchester Piccadilly, LDS = Leeds, NCL = Newcastle, EDB = Edinburgh, GLC = Glasgow Central
All you need to know is here http://www.1s76.com, in particular for 1990-1991.
Simple answer is probably that Derby was a carriage sidings for CrossCountry services.
In the 14/5/90 to 12/5/91 timetable there was 1O66 11:17 Derby-Brighton, 12p41h from Birmingham New Street and 14/24 at Wolvercot Junction via Worcester. D315, D280 from Reading, air-conditioned 100mph stock.
There's nothing like it in the 1993/4 public timetable.
It's also not in a 1991/92 WTT for the Brighton Line.
p - advertised 1 minute earlier
/ - passing time
h - half a minute
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SouthEastBuses
On Moderation
Blimey, 1 hour 30 minutes to get from Gatwick Airport to Reading when the North Downs Line only takes about an hour roughly, and that's with the Redhill reversal included!
For the Gatwick to Reading via Guildford journeys, I would imagine that they additionally stopped at Redhill to allow reversal?
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The 0545 from Gatwick sat at Guildford for 16 minutes to let a North Downs service go through, then followed it slowly from Guildford, leaving there at 0651 and arriving in Reading at 0735. The trains via Kensington Olympia took half an hour to get from East Croydon to Kensington Olympia and a further hour to get to Reading.
EE Type 3s had 800 gallons of both fuel and water when full. The fuel would have lasted the day, not so sure about the water. But there could have been booked water stops at stations.
Did this train actually turn round at Great Malvern, or did it run out to Malvern Wells to cross over from the down to up line? If this was the case it would have made the ability to keep time even more challenging.
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