Longer Distance Service You Didn't Expect Without Changing

[Helvellyn]

The Eastbourne diversion was always a bit curious. Was the demand genuinely to Eastbourne rather than Brighton, or was it to keep it out of the way? The Manchester working went there as well as I recall.

Eastbourne was still the destination in 1996.

As has been mentioned there was the demand. Always wondered if Bognor was ever considered as an alternative given the Butlin's Camp but I assumed Eastbourne was a bigger overall market.

I think there used to a Euston-Ayr on Summer Saturdays in the mid-1980s that used an Oxley based set. Have memories of it being the same set week after week! (This was separate to the Royal Scot starting from Ayr for a couple of years). That, i have always assumed, was geared at the Butlin's market (same as InterCity as the Cambrian Coast services from Euston).

 

[Ken H]

Did this train actually turn round at Great Malvern, or did it run out to Malvern Wells to cross over from the down to up line? If this was the case it would have made the ability to keep time even more challenging.

Has to go to Malvern Wells. No points at Gt Malvern. not sure there are any signals even.

 

[Pokelet]

The CT Service was the hourly North Staffs Line Service mostly originating from Nottingham but occasionally IIRC from Skegness
Withdrawn in 2003 I believe

CT in the early days ran some lovely magical mystery tours. Great Malvern to Grantham/Lincoln on a 150 anyone?

In the opposite direction, I remember arriving at Brighton and, being unaware, seeing a 158 there showing destination of Great Malvern. Obviously just a mistake ...

I understand it was really a service to Worcester, that got extended to Malvern as an Orcats Raid on the significant number of local journeys there. It was renowned for arriving at Worcester late, and with a minimal (10 minutes?) turnround at Malvern after a run of 4 hours or more, and now a return of the same, was commonly cancelled on that last leg so it could return from Worcester on time.

Those 1950s holiday trains may also have got late, but at least they didn't then throw the passengers out on the last leg.

The Brighton service is no more now. In reality this was several local services knitted together and more often than not ran to time. It does make sense to terminate at Shrub Hill or Foregate and then wait or turn in the long siding at WOS or nip to Henwick and back to get out of the way of an 'on time' service from London/Birmingham to get the Malvern bound pax there.

 

[nickswift99]

The 0545 from Gatwick sat at Guildford for 16 minutes to let a North Downs service go through, then followed it slowly from Guildford, leaving there at 0651 and arriving in Reading at 0735. The trains via Kensington Olympia took half an hour to get from East Croydon to Kensington Olympia and a further hour to get to Reading.

From memory, they were often pathed on the reliefs to get to/from Reading. Plodding along behind the local stoppers, but much more comfortable.

 

[JonathanH]

From memory, they were often pathed on the reliefs to get to/from Reading. Plodding along behind the local stoppers, but much more comfortable.

Yes, the ones via Kensington Olympia were, although I caught one on Christmas Eve 2002 which was put on the main at Ealing or Southall, arrived in Reading 10 minutes early and got in the way of services to the west, as it wasn't timed out for another 15 minutes.

 

[alistairlees]

There were many in the 1980s eg

Scarborough to:
- holyhead
- Glasgow QS
- paignton
- leicester

Stranraer harbour to:
- Newcastle
- Blackpool North

Bradford interchange to:
- paignton
- penzance
- Weymouth

Paddington to:
- Hull (via Birmingham)

Hull and Leeds to:
- Brighton (via Birmingham)

And in the 70s
- Colchester to newcastle

There will be many more!

 

[Ken H]

There were many in the 1980s eg

Scarborough to:
- holyhead
- Glasgow QS
- paignton
- leicester

Stranraer harbour to:
- Newcastle
- Blackpool North

Bradford interchange to:
- paignton
- penzance
- Weymouth

Paddington to:
- Hull (via Birmingham)

Hull and Leeds to:
- Brighton (via Birmingham)

And in the 70s
- Colchester to newcastle

There will be many more!

back in the day of the BR national timetable there was an international supplement. I used to love dreaming up obscure trips to places like Moskva nd Firenze when using 'foreign' names wasnt fashionalbe.
The tables had letters rather than numbers to differentiate from the numeric tables in the UK timetable. There was also table Z which was the Harwich boat train. It even spawned a magazine article 'The train on Table Z'

Sadly, no international supplement on Timetable World. Has anyone got one they could lend for scanning?

 

[hexagon789]

Did XC serve Guildford before 2008, and if yes were they the other Reading-Manchester extensions?

Not only did they serve it, but in the infamous Winter 2002 timetable it had eight scheduled XC services.

Though I believe it once had as many as 12.

 

[Ken H]

Not only did they serve it, but in the infamous Winter 2002 timetable it had eight scheduled XC services.

Though I believe it once had as many as 12.

There was the one return trip to Dover in BR days

 

[RPI]

There was the South West Trains SO London Waterloo to Penzance with the return working being the 14:30 (ish) Su Penzance to London Waterloo and Brighton. Left Penzance as a three car, joined with another three car at Plymouth then split again at Salisbury, this ran until 2009.
Until 2006 there was the 07:47 Penzance to Portsmouth Harbour which originally ran to Westbury and attached to a Cardiff-Portsmouth service, did the opposite on the return, splitting at Westbury, in later years it was a dedicated through service in both directions with no splitting and joining.

 

[nw1]

Not only did they serve it, but in the infamous Winter 2002 timetable it had eight scheduled XC services.

Though I believe it once had as many as 12.

From 1982-1986 there was always at least one XC in each direction from Guildford originating from or heading to Portsmouth. These were the Mon-Sat services:

1982 and 1983: Mon-Sat one Manchester trip and v.v.
1200 from Guildford in 1982; 0900 from Guildford in 1983 (1105 and 0805 respectively from Ports Hbr). Southbound services approx 1420 from Man Picc in 1982 and approx 1320 in 1983.

1984: one northbound York (1509 from Guildford, 1413 from Ports Hbr); southbound York and Liverpool. Bizarrely the southbound York departed Guildford at 1226, at the exact same time as the Waterloo-Portsmouth stopper, though presumably the WTT time of the latter was a couple of mins later. The Liverpool would have left from Lime St at 1400-ish. Also the 0805 northbound (0900 Guildford) continued to run, formed of the southbound Liverpool from the previous night, but went to Poole via Reading - a positioning move for the 1130-ish Poole to Manchester, though it did provide connection at Reading with the "Wessex Scot".

1985: unchanged from 1984.

1986: northbound services were now to Liverpool (the 0900, or 0805 ex Ports Hbr, once again!) and Manchester (1356, I think). Southbound services were, I think, both Liverpool, one early in the morning (0700-ish from Lime St?) and the second at roughly the same time as the southbound Liverpool in 1984 and 1985.

I have the feeling the XC services from Guildford ended in 1987, not to return until Virgin days (when a number of 158s were provided, often to Blackpool - and some of which became HSTs) but I am not sure.

In addition to these, there was the Friday afternoon Portsmouth-Leeds, due Guildford 1346, returning Sunday evening - and a couple of summer-only Saturday services, an 1125 to Leeds being a frequent fixture, using Mk-I stock (travelled on this on 29 Sep 1984 from Guildford-Reading, in those days summer Saturdays lasted until the very end of Sep - consequently on that autumn day, I saw a procession of summer specials heading for Paignton, Newquay etc at Reading!)

 

[hexagon789]

From 1982-1986 there was always at least one XC in each direction from Guildford originating from or heading to Portsmouth. These were the Mon-Sat services:

1982 and 1983: Mon-Sat one Manchester trip and v.v.
1200 from Guildford in 1982; 0900 from Guildford in 1983 (1105 and 0805 respectively from Ports Hbr). Southbound services approx 1420 from Man Picc in 1982 and approx 1320 in 1983.

1984: one northbound York (1509 from Guildford, 1413 from Ports Hbr); southbound York and Liverpool. Bizarrely the southbound York departed Guildford at 1226, at the exact same time as the Waterloo-Portsmouth stopper, though presumably the WTT time of the latter was a couple of mins later. The Liverpool would have left from Lime St at 1400-ish. Also the 0805 northbound (0900 Guildford) continued to run, formed of the southbound Liverpool from the previous night, but went to Poole via Reading - a positioning move for the 1130-ish Poole to Manchester, though it did provide connection at Reading with the "Wessex Scot".

1985: unchanged from 1984.

1986: northbound services were now to Liverpool (the 0900, or 0805 ex Ports Hbr, once again!) and Manchester (1356, I think). Southbound services were, I think, both Liverpool, one early in the morning (0700-ish from Lime St?) and the second at roughly the same time as the southbound Liverpool in 1984 and 1985, I think.

I have the feeling the XC services from Guildford ended in 1987, not to return until Virgin days (when a number of 158s were provided, often to Blackpool - and some of which became HSTs) but I am not sure.

Interesting points.

I'll check up on Guildford in the 1987-00 GBTTs.

 

[JonathanH]

I have the feeling the XC services from Guildford ended in 1987, not to return until Virgin days.

They would have retained route knowledge via Guildford though for engineering work closures of the route via Kensington Olympia.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

They would have retained route knowledge via Guildford though for engineering work closures of the route via Kensington Olympia.

Would this mean that they would have had to reverse in Redhill if they were going to South Coast destinations like Brighton?

 

[JonathanH]

Would this mean that they would have had to reverse in Redhill if they were going to South Coast destinations like Brighton?

Yes, but doing so, and running the locomotive round, was easier then than it is now.

 

[sk688]

Always found Bath's former 1tpd service to Glasgow interesting , now consigned to the history books as a result of COVID presuambly

 

[hexagon789]

From 1982-1986 there was always at least one XC in each direction from Guildford originating from or heading to Portsmouth. These were the Mon-Sat services:

1982 and 1983: Mon-Sat one Manchester trip and v.v.
1200 from Guildford in 1982; 0900 from Guildford in 1983 (1105 and 0805 respectively from Ports Hbr). Southbound services approx 1420 from Man Picc in 1982 and approx 1320 in 1983.

1984: one northbound York (1509 from Guildford, 1413 from Ports Hbr); southbound York and Liverpool. Bizarrely the southbound York departed Guildford at 1226, at the exact same time as the Waterloo-Portsmouth stopper, though presumably the WTT time of the latter was a couple of mins later. The Liverpool would have left from Lime St at 1400-ish. Also the 0805 northbound (0900 Guildford) continued to run, formed of the southbound Liverpool from the previous night, but went to Poole via Reading - a positioning move for the 1130-ish Poole to Manchester, though it did provide connection at Reading with the "Wessex Scot".

1985: unchanged from 1984.

1986: northbound services were now to Liverpool (the 0900, or 0805 ex Ports Hbr, once again!) and Manchester (1356, I think). Southbound services were, I think, both Liverpool, one early in the morning (0700-ish from Lime St?) and the second at roughly the same time as the southbound Liverpool in 1984 and 1985.

I have the feeling the XC services from Guildford ended in 1987, not to return until Virgin days. Nonetheless loco-haulage continued to be seen at Guildford until May 1989, I think, due to the daily 50-hauled Waterloo-Portsmouth fast.

In addition to these, there was the Friday afternoon Portsmouth-Leeds, due Guildford 1346, returning Sunday evening - and a couple of summer-only Saturday services, an 1125 to Leeds being a frequent fixture, using Mk-I stock (travelled on this on 29 Sep 1984 from Guildford-Reading, in those days summer Saturdays lasted until the very end of Sep - consequently on that autumn day, I saw a procession of summer specials heading for Paignton, Newquay etc at Reading!)

Interesting points.

I'll check up on Guildford in the 1987-00 GBTTs.

1986 -

Two Liverpool-Portsmouth Hbrs, a Fridays Only Leeds-Portsmouth Hbr.

One each Portsmouth Hbr. to Liverpool & to Manchester. One Summer Sats only Portsmouth-Leeds.

1987

No regular weekday services.

The FO Leeds and Sat Return is still in and there is a Sats only Manchester-Portsmouth Hbr. and return.

In 1989 the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Brighton runs via Guildford on Sundays.

In 1993 it runs via Guildford every day, but only stops after late July (otherwise being fast Reading to Redhill, and thence on to Gatwick).

In 2000, Guilford has a Birmingham-Portsmouth Hbr., a Blackpool N.-Portsmouth & Southsea and a Liverpool-Portsmouth Hbr. The reverse is the same except the Birmingham extends to Preston.


For completeness, under the Operation Princess timetable which was implemented briefly in Winter 2002 (as opposed to the originally intended plan, you had:

A two-hourly Liverpool-Portsmouth & Southsea (two extending to Portsmouth Hbr.) plus two Manchester-Guildford running in the Manchester-Brighton slots. Similar in reverse.

 

[Rescars]

Has to go to Malvern Wells. No points at Gt Malvern. not sure there are any signals even.

Once upon a time Great Malvern was fully signalled and there was another box (Malvern and Tewkesbury Junction) before the line reached Malvern Wells. By the 1970s the only signal at Great Malvern was the Malvern Wells down distant. Someone will know if things are different now.

 

[JonathanH]

In 1993 it runs via Guildford every day, but only stops after late July (otherwise being fast Reading to Gatwick).

It will have only gone via Guildford if there is a Redhill time - eg not if fast from Reading to Gatwick. Otherwise, it went via Kensington Olympia.

 

[hexagon789]

It will have only gone via Guildford if there is a Redhill time - eg not if fast from Reading to Gatwick. Otherwise, it went via Kensington Olympia.

Yes, sorry there is a Redhill time.

 

[Bevan Price]

1986 -

Two Liverpool-Portsmouth Hbrs, a Fridays Only Leeds-Portsmouth Hbr.

One each Portsmouth Hbr. to Liverpool & to Manchester. One Summer Sats only Portsmouth-Leeds.

1987

No regular weekday services.

The FO Leeds and Sat Return is still in and there is a Sats only Manchester-Portsmouth Hbr. and return.

In 1989 the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Brighton runs via Guildford on Sundays.

In 1993 it runs via Guildford every day, but only stops after late July (otherwise being fast Reading to Redhill, and thence on to Gatwick).

In 2000, Guilford has a Birmingham-Portsmouth Hbr., a Blackpool N.-Portsmouth & Southsea and a Liverpool-Portsmouth Hbr. The reverse is the same except the Birmingham extends to Preston.

Although not advertised as through trains, those Liverpool / Portsmouth services also worked Edinburgh to Liverpool and vice versa - with 2 car Class 158s, later converted to Voyager duties until the trains ceased.

 

[hexagon789]

Although not advertised as through trains, those Liverpool / Portsmouth services also worked Edinburgh to Liverpool and vice versa - with 2 car Class 158s, later converted to Voyager duties until the trains ceased.

Thanks, it's things such as this that aren't obvious from the tables a lot of the time.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

The cross country trains from Brighton originally joined the Great Western main line at North Pole Jct onto the fast/main lines. The Eurostar depot severed the connection in the sense that it was no longer a through route meaning the train had to go via Willesden SW sidings and the down Poplar to join at Acton Main Line on the slows/relief lines.

 

[Andy873]

Which way did it go. I imagine it would have gone through industrial Yorkshire somehow.

Sorry Ken, missed your question, Lincoln to Blackpool Central 1M98 SO depart 9.09 am. It appears in my 1962 WTT at Hebden Bridge, then Copy Pit, Gannow junction onto the East Lancs line heading towards Preston. The route through Yorkshire - I don't know, you'd think it would take in Leeds / Bradford?

This train from Lincoln isn't the only curiosity, also on the same page (attached) is a train going from Radford (Nottingham) to Blackpool North (1M95). Firstly I was confused about this one, thought it was a misprint, thought it should have said Bradford. But no, Radford it was. This one train was of interest to me as it was diverted down my old branch (North Lancs loop) to avoid Accrington.

This Radford one is a strange one, I have no idea why the train didn't start at Nottingham? it probably would have gone past (stopped at) Radford anyway?

See attached.

 

[Pokelet]

Once upon a time Great Malvern was fully signalled and there was another box (Malvern and Tewkesbury Junction) before the line reached Malvern Wells. By the 1970s the only signal at Great Malvern was the Malvern Wells down distant. Someone will know if things are different now.

I believe it's just the distant. Quite a long run from Great Malvern to the Wells for a turn back and adds easily 30 (tight) to 40 minutes to a return journey when a service could be capped and turned at Worcester

 

[nw1]

Interesting points.

I'll check up on Guildford in the 1987-00 GBTTs.

Thanks. I do have WTTs for some 90s years (1994, 1995, 1997, 1999), which show the VIrgin services, including, in 1999, the incongruous sight of an HST calling at Haslemere.

1986 -

Two Liverpool-Portsmouth Hbrs, a Fridays Only Leeds-Portsmouth Hbr.

One each Portsmouth Hbr. to Liverpool & to Manchester. One Summer Sats only Portsmouth-Leeds.

1987

No regular weekday services.

The FO Leeds and Sat Return is still in and there is a Sats only Manchester-Portsmouth Hbr. and return.

In 1989 the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Brighton runs via Guildford on Sundays.

In 1993 it runs via Guildford every day, but only stops after late July (otherwise being fast Reading to Redhill, and thence on to Gatwick).

In 2000, Guilford has a Birmingham-Portsmouth Hbr., a Blackpool N.-Portsmouth & Southsea and a Liverpool-Portsmouth Hbr. The reverse is the same except the Birmingham extends to Preston.


For completeness, under the Operation Princess timetable which was implemented briefly in Winter 2002 (as opposed to the originally intended plan, you had:

A two-hourly Liverpool-Portsmouth & Southsea (two extending to Portsmouth Hbr.) plus two Manchester-Guildford running in the Manchester-Brighton slots. Similar in reverse.

Thanks. So it looks like 1987 was indeed the big change then, as I thought I remembered.

Presumably the passenger numbers were not high on the Portsmouth XCs? When I used them they always seemed well used but perhaps passenger numbers fell later.

I also remember the experimental Brighton XC via Willesden services were pared back in 1987 too. Given that we were in relatively good economic times, and NSE in particular was growing, it was strange to see so much rentrenchment of XC services in 1987. The fact that I lost interest in XC around then, and focused my interest more on NSE (my XC interest only coming back in Virgin days around 1996 or 1997) is probably no coincidence.

These services were a big part of my early years travelling on the railway, so it was sad to see them go. It was good to see them come back again under Virgin but by that time I'd moved away from the Direct.

 

[hexagon789]

So it looks like 1987 was indeed the big change then, as I thought I remembered.

I remember noticing that the NE-SW HST service from Newcastle was more regularised in 1987.

The two Newcastle-Cardiffs were withdrawn, the Newcastle-Penzance loco-hauled became an HST again (having been made LHCS in the 1984 shake-up). Newcastle-Plymouth then became a regular interval two-hourly service on odd-hours at XX:25 with the Penzance being the 0925 service.

The pattern was muddled a bit in 1988 and the Cardiff returned, so it seems to have been a bit of an experiment in 1987.

I always though the Newcastle-Cardiff was one of the more interesting HST services. In 2002 it became a two-hourly Dundee-Cardiff service, one of Operation Princess' five core routes. Originally it was to have been Darlington-Cardiff, with Dundee having the not actually introduced hourly Poole service.

 

[Magdalia]

Lincoln to Blackpool Central 1M98 SO depart 9.09 am. It appears in my 1962 WTT at Hebden Bridge, then Copy Pit, Gannow junction onto the East Lancs line heading towards Preston.

1M98 called Gainsborough Lea Road, Doncaster, Carcroft and Adwick-le-Street, South Elmsall, Hemsworth and Fitzwilliam. In 1962 it didn't call at either of the Wakefield stations, but by the following year was calling at Wakefield Kirkgate. That puts it onto the Lancashire and Yorkshire main line.

This train from Lincoln isn't the only curiosity, also on the same page (attached) is a train going from Radford (Nottingham) to Blackpool North (1M95). Firstly I was confused about this one, thought it was a misprint, thought it should have said Bradford. But no, Radford it was. This one train was of interest to me as it was diverted down my old branch (North Lancs loop) to avoid Accrington.

1M95 ran for the last time in 1962. It followed the old Midland route via Mansfield, calling at most stations to Elmton and Cresswell. It then went via Clowne and Barlborough to join the Sheffield "Old Road" at Foxlow Junction.

I'm interested in the route of 1M95 between Cudworth and Hebden Bridge, which way would it go? Actually, what I'm really interested in is the route of 1M89 Sheffield-Blackpool between Cudworth and Hebden Bridge!

The route through Yorkshire - I don't know, you'd think it would take in Leeds / Bradford?

This Radford one is a strange one, I have no idea why the train didn't start at Nottingham?

Big cities like Nottingham, Leeds and Bradford would have their own trains to/from Blackpool. 1M03 was 0725 Nottingham-Blackpool which was nearly all stations via the Erewash Valley to Chesterfield Midland then Dore Curve onto the Hope Valley line.

 

[miklcct]

I also remember the experimental Brighton XC via Willesden services were pared back in 1987 too. Given that we were in relatively good economic times, and NSE in particular was growing, it was strange to see so much rentrenchment of XC services in 1987. The fact that I lost interest in XC around then, and focused my interest more on NSE (my XC interest only coming back in Virgin days around 1996 or 1997) is probably no coincidence.

These services were a big part of my early years travelling on the railway, so it was sad to see them go. It was good to see them come back again under Virgin but by that time I'd moved away from the Direct.

Such an intercity service using a route with high-intensity metro operation is definitely an anomaly. It's good to see a long-distance service which runs in the outskirts of London, enabling a lot of avoiding Zone 1 journeys to be made, but unfortunately it won't come back under the current instructure.

 

[Jimini]

The cross country trains from Brighton originally joined the Great Western main line at North Pole Jct onto the fast/main lines. The Eurostar depot severed the connection in the sense that it was no longer a through route mean the train had to go via Willesden SW sidings and the down Poplar to join at Acton Main Line on the slows/relief lines.

Yep sure did, I can remember sitting on the incline down towards the GWML patienty waiting for a path over all four lines to become available whilst en route to Reading from Croydon.