Longest Shift

[Jan Mayen]

This thread was prompted by the disruption tonight between East Croydon and London Victoria.
Briefly, someone has been hit by a train. This has blocked the fast lines.
So train crew may well be late finishing. Is there a limit on how late they can finish a shift?
The second question is what is the longest shift on the national rail network, regardless of role? I assume it would be on one of the sleeper services.

 

[theking]

1)12 hours is the longest you can legally be on shift.

2) Depends what the companies terms and conditions are like and how many hours the rostered turns are like, I doubt the sleeper is the longest as i assume they have multiple drivers more likely a freight job.

 

[AgentGemini]

Legally it's 12hrs, but it has been known for them to go over and then have their next day covered / partially covered to allow them 12hrs mandatory rest...

 

[ComUtoR]

Our Platform Staff have 12hr shifts.

 

[Watershed]

12 hours is the longest you can legally be on shift.

This figure originates from the Group Standard adopted following the Hidden report's recommendations. The Group Standard was never the law and was in fact scrapped in 2006, replaced by ORR and RSSB guidance. The law does not specify any particular requirements, just that the employer must ensure that fatigue doesn't significantly affect safety.

In practice, almost all shifts on the railway still 'abide' by the 'Hidden rules', and in fact the agreement in place with the unions at most TOCs and FOCs will normally be stricter.

 

[Fokx]

It’s a little more complicated than the 12 hours legality as traincrew also have a maximum number of hours they can work both continuously and also weekly set by the TOC’s

For my TOC the longest turn for conductors is 10.5 hours, with an expectation that you must work 15 minutes after that if required. Anything above that is overtime and I can demand to end my shift in such a circumstance where it’s possible and practical to do so. (E.g There’s a line blockage and I’m already at a station where I can get passengers safely off)

The maximum number of hours I can work continuously is 72. Anything above that and I’m not allowed to be on duty and would be sent home regardless of where I am or what I’m rostered to do.

In such a situation where traincrew are severely disrupted and we have gone over our day, we would usually be given the next day off as a rest day fully paid. In a situations that might involve staff being fit to drive home or being quite far from the depot, on top of this hotel accommodation would be provided.

 

[owidoe]

The maximum number of hours I can work continuously is 72.

Has this ever happened? I can't imagine it's at all safe having safety-critical staff who haven't slept in the last three days.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Has this ever happened? I can't imagine it's at all safe having safety-critical staff who haven't slept in the last three days.

You’ll probably find that in a lot of hospitals around the country on any given day. It’s almost a point of pride with some doctors.

 

[Llanigraham]

As a signaller the maximum is 12 hours, with 12 hours rest between shifts, though in an emergency I did once work an extra hour.

 

[TheBigD]

Has this ever happened? I can't imagine it's at all safe having safety-critical staff who haven't slept in the last three days.

I suspect he's referring to 72 hours in a 7 day period.

 

[ExRes]

Has this ever happened? I can't imagine it's at all safe having safety-critical staff who haven't slept in the last three days.

I very much hope that @Fokx means 72 hours in a week rather than without a break, if he does mean without a break then I wonder what negotiations took place between his TOC and the Union

 

[InOban]

You’ll probably find that in a lot of hospitals around the country on any given day. It’s almost a point of pride with some doctors.

It used to be. For reasons of patient safety, it's not permitted now. Not to say that staff don't stay some times after their shift has officially ended. And if there's a major emergency declared, the rules go out the window.

 

[Fokx]

I suspect he's referring to 72 hours in a 7 day period.

Yes sorry to clarify, 72 continuously over the period of a week with a minimum of 12 hours between start and end times.

Has this ever happened? I can't imagine it's at all safe having safety-critical staff who haven't slept in the last three days.

Not to that extreme but there are staff who have worked 14/15 hours in a day before that I’m aware of due to issues with overhead wires and traction stuck in the middle of nowhere on their way back to their home depot

I did come close to the 72 myself not to long ago (but with breaks in between), it wasn’t the most pleasant of weeks at all.

 

[43066]

This figure originates from the Group Standard adopted following the Hidden report's recommendations. The Group Standard was never the law and was in fact scrapped in 2006, replaced by ORR and RSSB guidance. The law does not specify any particular requirements, just that the employer must ensure that fatigue doesn't significantly affect safety.

In practice, almost all shifts on the railway still 'abide' by the 'Hidden rules', and in fact the agreement in place with the unions at most TOCs and FOCs will normally be stricter.

Quite right. It’s a universally accepted industry norm rather than a hard legal requirement.

People generally usually use “legal” as shorthand for abiding by Hidden or more restrictive agreements. There’s certainly nothing to legally require a member of staff to down tools after 12 hours - indeed it might be impossible for them to do so! The typical example would be if a train is stranded in the middle of nowhere, leaving the driver and guard physically unable to complete their shift. Of course this would potentially lead to a late start the next day if the twelve hour rule came into effect.

 

[dk1]

As drivers we can only legally work 12hrs. That however goes out the window during disruption & if agreed by yourself & the on all manager can well exceed that. I recently worked almost 15 hours which being a Sunday was hugely lucrative.

 

[skyhigh]

As drivers we can only legally work 12hrs. That however goes out the window during disruption & if agreed by yourself & the on all manager can well exceed that. I recently worked almost 15 hours which being a Sunday was hugely lucrative.

Not quite. As mentioned above, there is no legal restriction to a maximum 12 hour shift - it's just something the industry has decided to follow as a result of Hidden.

 

[dk1]

Not quite. As mentioned above, there is no legal restriction to a maximum 12 hour shift - it's just something the industry has decided to follow as a result of Hidden.

Even prior to hidden a ‘please explain’ was sent to a roster clerk who even booked a driver a shift without the statutory 12hrs rest.

At my depot apart from the maximum 12hr shift, 10 hours is the maximum length of a diagram.

 

[class ep-09]

Not quite. As mentioned above, there is no legal restriction to a maximum 12 hour shift - it's just something the industry has decided to follow as a result of Hidden.

Just a thought - perhaps it is “ illegal “ to work 12+ shifts from contract of employment point of view .

 

[dk1]

Just a thought - perhaps it is “ illegal “ to work 12+ shifts from contract of employment point of view .

It’s a very strict 12 hour rule.

 

[43066]

Just a thought - perhaps it is “ illegal “ to work 12+ shifts from contract of employment point of view .

It isn’t. There’s a max 48 hour week under the working time regs, which you can opt out of, and some other provisions around entitlement to breaks, annual leave etc.

There’s nothing in employment law to stop over 18s working more than twelve hours in a stretch, however.

 

[alxndr]

It isn’t. There’s a max 48 hour week under the working time regs, which you can opt out of, and some other provisions around entitlement to breaks, annual leave etc.

There’s nothing in employment law to stop over 18s working more than twelve hours in a stretch, however.

I think the point being made was that it may breach the details of a contract, for example, my contract states "The maximum rostered shift length, including travelling time, will be 12 hours."

 

[mac]

Is the railway bothered about fatigue? As far as I'm aware they are the only industry still allowed to work a 72 hour week when all others are working 48 hours average

 

[skyhigh]

Is the railway bothered about fatigue? As far as I'm aware they are the only industry still allowed to work a 72 hour week when all others are working 48 hours average

Hardly anyone will ever work a 72 hour week. The average will be much closer to 48 hours.

 

[172007]

Is the railway bothered about fatigue? As far as I'm aware they are the only industry still allowed to work a 72 hour week when all others are working 48 hours average

Most TOCs have for drivers a 35hr week. Anything over that is not forced except a Sunday where it is contracted which at most would be 12 hrs so comfortably inside the 48hrs.

Don't forget a restday is generally a complete shift so 72hrs if doing 3 restday voluntarily is just possible.

 

[Taunton]

This discussion above is around the hourly-paid staff, but for salaried junior management positions there is the "on call" manager who after a day in the office can get a phone call at 2 am or whenever, and sometimes even one at 8 pm, another at midnight, and another at 5 am, each needing to go out and attend to something.

 

[43066]

I think the point being made was that it may breach the details of a contract, for example, my contract states "The maximum rostered shift length, including travelling time, will be 12 hours."

Yes possibly. Mine has similar - although it’s important to note there isn’t any true *legal* restriction on 12 hour shifts generally.

Is the railway bothered about fatigue?

Nowhere near as bothered as it should be!

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember in the 1970s doing six 12-hour night-shifts in a row. By the Saturday morning I was like a walking zombie, but my job as a TOPS clerk wasn't safety critical. And of course I was raking-in the money with no time to spend it!

 

[dk1]

Is the railway bothered about fatigue? As far as I'm aware they are the only industry still allowed to work a 72 hour week when all others are working 48 hours average

It's a personal choice. Only really need to do more than 35 if you want more money. That's the great thing about many railway jobs, it's there if you want it. Plenty of paid breaks to so fatigue isn't a problem I find.

 

[Fokx]

Hardly anyone will ever work a 72 hour week. The average will be much closer to 48 hours.

Depends on the rostering. At my depot every three weeks you book on Friday, and work right through to the following Thursday (with five long weekend days afterwards to recover) and can end up getting extremely close to the limit from just working normal 10 hour duties daily

 

[Surreytraveller]

Just a thought - perhaps it is “ illegal “ to work 12+ shifts from contract of employment point of view .

That wouldn't make it 'illegal'. It would make it 'breach of contract'