Longest Shift

[Horizon22]

Interesting, as the TOC I previously worked at never had duty control managers taking anything to do with authorising traincrew to work over 12 hours. This would always be a Train Crew Supervisor. The only times that control were closely involved with a crew working over without TCS consent was when it was severe weather where the only way the crew were getting home was by working the train.

Well Duty Control Manager and Resources/Crew Supervisors/Managers are often co-located these days so it would be a pretty easy joint decision, but the DCM has more ultimate responsibility.

 

[Ex-controller]

I'm sure GBRf Drivers have something like a max 13 hour shift, but I don't think any driving of trains can take place in the last hour.

Some Cross Country on board staff had above 12 hours a few years ago (something like 12h20). I saw the diagram and was quite surprised.

Used to be a Wick traincrew diagram that was similar. Not sure if that’s still the case.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I know that FL HH isn't like that. Maybe you need to specify IM

Right, possibly as this has come from drivers who've just jumped over to us from FL but their depot has both HH and IM so not sure which they were

Well Duty Control Manager and Resources/Crew Supervisors/Managers are often co-located these days so it would be a pretty easy joint decision, but the DCM has more ultimate responsibility.

Maybe this varies per TOC, for us Control always focus on the operations only, often with negative impact on me as train crew. DTCM/TSM always looks out for the train crew first

 

[Stigy]

Not sure if it’s been said as I haven’t read all three pages, but although 12 hours is the maximum, in extenuating circumstances you can extend to 15hrs (I believe) in order to get back to your depot (for operational requirements to keep the railway running). This may vary between operators I guess? This is for drivers.

 

[ungreat]

Most I've done is 18 hours. And that's as traincrew too

 

[Nemo01]

But 6 months later I then worked an 11 hour shift.

I'm a relief signaller so didn't luck out on the 11 hour shift this year

 

[GB]

I'm sure GBRf Drivers have something like a max 13 hour shift, but I don't think any driving of trains can take place in the last hour

Sort of but not quite. They can book you on at home but you have to give them 30 minutes of your own time to travel to and from the job but they must provide you with transport (usually a hire car or taxi). So it will be 30m travel +12h shift +30m travel. Effectively no different to doing a 12 hour shift at your normal booking on point.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Some Cross Country on board staff had above 12 hours a few years ago (something like 12h20). I saw the diagram and was quite surprised.

Back in BR days many catering staff worked throughout on long distance trains and depending on just how long the trip was either then worked back same day e.g. Glasgow London and back, or lodged and worked back next day e.g. what are now cross country routes, not sure but Edinburgh to Plymouth may have worked on that basis.

The Restaurant Car crew on the 06.00 Glasgow to Mallaig worked through then 13.00 from Malliag with a layover in Fort William before the 16.15 back getting in around 20.30. Book on and off were obviously well before 06.00 for picking up and loading stock and book off after cashing in and returning stock, so somewhere between 15 and 16 hours on duty. When the southbound service was retimed to 18.20 from Fort William by which time the service had been reduced to buffet only so just a single member of staff that shift was length was extended by a further two hours and the two regular stewards normally worked alternate days although it was not unknown to find them working consecutive days.

In the late 70s as a Guard I regularly booked consecutive days of 14, 15 or 16 hours albeit the actual was typically (but not always) around 13 hours. Technically there should have been 12 hours rest between shifts but with vacancies, leave and sickness there was often lengthy overtime on offer to cover two overlapping shifts, and quite a few were not interested in working overtime unless perhaps a Rest Day or Sunday. My all time peak week showed 105hrs 15 mins worked on the payslip, 40 hrs basic (5 x 8hr day), 50hrs 15 overtime (including a 15 or 16 hr Rest Day Worked and a 15 hours Sunday.) Once enhanced hours were added such Sunday at time + 3/4 the total hours paid that week came to 141 hrs 48 mins.

 

[virgintrain1]

Are you sure about the XC diagram, that really doesn't sound right. How the LLC allowed that I'm not sure, doesn't conform to Hidden

XC TMs have rostered shifts up to 11 hours.

RSMs and FCHs worked up to 13 hour shifts until a few years ago. This was then lowered to 11 hours.

I think the ex central Senior Cons have different conditions.

 

[stu]

Is the railway bothered about fatigue? As far as I'm aware they are the only industry still allowed to work a 72 hour week when all others are working 48 hours average

Clearly you've never worked in the theatre industry!

 

[TheBigD]

XC TMs have rostered shifts up to 11 hours.

RSMs and FCHs worked up to 13 hour shifts until a few years ago. This was then lowered to 11 hours.

I the ex central Senior Cons have different conditions.

10 hours max rostered shift for Senior Conductors.

 

[dk1]

10 hours max rostered shift for Senior Conductors.

Sounds right. I’d be shocked if any TOC did different.

 

[43066]

I work on the railway on 8 hour shifts and with our rostered Sunday's that we have to work we work 20 shifts in our 28 day pay period, during these days we get 3 rest days but on one of them we work 6 hours finishing nights so in 23 days we only get two full days off

That’s shocking. There are some pretty nasty runs of days on that are possible even for drivers with an average four day week, which of course other grades tend not to have.

10 hours max rostered shift for Senior Conductors.

Sounds right. I’d be shocked if any TOC did different.

Ours can do 12 hours max.

 

[dk1]

That’s shocking. There are some pretty nasty runs of days on that are possible even for drivers with an average four day week, which of course other grades tend not to have.





Ours can do 12 hours max.

Yes I agree with that but being rostered anymore than 10 is quite rare these days & illegal rostering at most TOCs.

 

[Llanigraham]

Clearly you've never worked in the theatre industry!

Or the Exhibition Builders industry!

 

[43066]

Yes I agree with that but being rostered anymore than 10 is quite rare these days & illegal rostering at most TOCs.

It’s poor practice really. They are also expected to take breaks on board and will often remain on trains throughout the day.

 

[dk1]

It’s poor practice really. They are also expected to take breaks on board and will often remain on trains throughout the day.

Jesus, that practically Victorian. Why ever is that tolerated & agreed as acceptable?

 

[43066]

Jesus, that practically Victorian. Why ever is that tolerated & agreed as acceptable?

It’s blamed generally on a weak union and poor historical agreements. It’s not a happy ship, quite a few TMs are trying to go driving or leave.

 

[dk1]

It’s blamed generally on a weak union and poor historical agreements. It’s not a happy ship, quite a few TMs are trying to go driving or leave.

And you can’t blame them one bit.

 

[kevconnor]

It isn’t. There’s a max 48 hour week under the working time regs, which you can opt out of, and some other provisions around entitlement to breaks, annual leave etc.

There’s nothing in employment law to stop over 18s working more than twelve hours in a stretch, however.

point of order, reg 10 of WRT1998 allows for the below

10.—(1) An adult worker is entitled to a rest period of not less than eleven consecutive hours in each 24-hour period during which he works for his employer.

That being said, this means it's possible to work 13 hours in a day. Besides which, the regulations are holier than the pope, with the rail industry (and other transport sectors) specifically exempted.

 

[Pseudonym]

You’ll probably find that in a lot of hospitals around the country on any given day. It’s almost a point of pride with some doctors.

Not any more do doctors work 3 days with no sleep. Usual maximum is 12.5 hours these days.
When I was a junior doctor back in the early 80s our weekends were 09:00 Friday morning to 17:00 Monday afternoon.
I once had 5 hours sleep over a whole 80 hour weekend.

 

[43066]

Not any more do doctors work 3 days with no sleep. Usual maximum is 12.5 hours these days.
When I was a junior doctor back in the early 80s our weekends were 09:00 Friday morning to 17:00 Monday afternoon.
I once had 5 hours sleep over a whole 80 hour weekend.

Which is quite ridiculous considering the responsibility of the role and the fact you’re potentially making life and death decisions!

 

[Horizon22]

Right, possibly as this has come from drivers who've just jumped over to us from FL but their depot has both HH and IM so not sure which they were


Maybe this varies per TOC, for us Control always focus on the operations only, often with negative impact on me as train crew. DTCM/TSM always looks out for the train crew first

You can't run any operations without coordination of both teams. You might only hear from the resources team directly, and there might be the odd cheeeky grumble "well the controller wants to do this so..." but they ultimately have to sign from the same hymn sheet or it will be (even more) carnage.

Not any more do doctors work 3 days with no sleep. Usual maximum is 12.5 hours these days.
When I was a junior doctor back in the early 80s our weekends were 09:00 Friday morning to 17:00 Monday afternoon.
I once had 5 hours sleep over a whole 80 hour weekend.

Junior doctors had it really rough back before the mid 90s. It's not the easiest role now, but I have older family in the medical professions and the stories they tell... And people wondered why death rates on weekends were so much higher!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

You can't run any operations without coordination of both teams. You might only hear from the resources team directly, and there might be the odd cheeeky grumble "well the controller wants to do this so..." but they ultimately have to sign from the same hymn sheet or it will be (even more) carnage

Yes they coordinate with each other, but they certainly look at the picture from different sides from what I have experienced over the last 5 years.

I've regularly had very abrupt calls from control, including ordering me to move the train despite me dealing with incidents, especially medical ones when they are on platforms at unmanned stations. I understand the need to keep the network moving, but they don't seem to see the picture from a personal perspective.

DCTM have always backed my actions and often think about me as train crew and are proactive regarding delays and disruption such as getting next work covered due to being late on PNB or informing control that my next work will be late if no cover.

Obviously that's just my experience, and it's a quirk of the roles at my TOC maybe, but I'm pretty sure many have had similar run-ins with control/TSMs

 

[Randomer]

Clearly you've never worked in the theatre industry!

Indeed, I booked over 55 hours worked last week, with breaks I would have been in the low 60's in terms of total shift length.

Although it is interesting that fatigue being a causal factor in accidents and the subsequent risk of it coming back on to the employer in the case of an incident is starting to make an impact on scheduling in my small bit of the industry at least.

Any industry will struggle to justify to an investigating body an accident caused by an employee having worked well over 12 hrs.

 

[cambsy]

My dad was a Surgeon, passed away now, and when he was junior registrar etc, he used to live on Hospital site, this was in the 60’s to early 70’s, where he did crazy hours, he was on call all the time, so he could do a 12 hour shift, head off to sleep, then get a call say after 2 hours sleep, then have deal with life or death situation etc, go back to sleep, then another 12 hour shift later in day, If remember correctly, in one year, he had just one weekend off. By the time me and my sister came along, he was climbing the ladder, so hours got a lot better, and in the end he was on 8-9 hours days generally, and he went on to become, an eminent surgeon in his field, and was one of the best in Europe if not the world.

He always said the brutal hours in his early career, were what trained him to become, the great surgeon he was, now i dont know the exact hours he worked early in his career, and once could look up if one wanted to, but I know they were brutal, compared to now, where they are much more regulated, which, is good, but he said, that there was something about the hours etc which gave better training,which doctors etc have lost with less hours. I personally think, there has to be a good balance work life balance, so really 10 hour max shift.

 

[tony6499]

In the winter of 2010/11 crew from the south coast were stuck at Victoria for the night and most were on duty for the best part of 24 hours. In such cases there is nothing anyone can do when weather intervenes and blocks road and rail

 

[dk1]

Indeed, I booked over 55 hours worked last week, with breaks I would have been in the low 60's in terms of total shift length.

How come you don’t get paid for your breaks?

 

[Randomer]

How come you don’t get paid for your breaks?

I get paid for short breaks within the scheduled hours (i.e. a short rest break of at least 15 mins once every 2 hours which makes it WTD complaint) lunch and dinner are 1 hour each unpaid in addition so an 11 hour day is 13 hours in length total. Pretty standard in my industry. To be honest I've not worked in many places where long lunch or dinner breaks are paid for hourly or salaried staff.

I'm salaried with overtime for certain things outside the contracted terms (e.g. working on rest days) just that unlike some people a shorter PNB is paid but Lunch and Dinner are not.

 

[dk1]

I get paid for short breaks within the scheduled hours (i.e. a short rest break of at least 15 mins once every 2 hours which makes it WTD complaint) lunch and dinner are 1 hour each unpaid in addition so an 11 hour day is 13 hours in length total. Pretty standard in my industry. To be honest I've not worked in many places where long lunch or dinner breaks are paid for hourly or salaried staff.

I'm salaried with overtime for certain things outside the contracted terms (e.g. working on rest days) just that unlike some people a shorter PNB is paid but Lunch and Dinner are not.

Okay sorry. For some reason I thought you where traincrew hence why it confused me. Thanks for explaining.