LothianBusesPh
Member
Yes, the 44 needs XLB's, the 3 at peak times only though.
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Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)
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Just been catching up with the discussions on the ECB retrenchment. Passing thoughts arising.
A combined 20 minute frequency splitting off into two services each with its own 40 minute frequency is a terrible prospect for those using the bus on the every 40 minutes sections.
An eventual outcome of Mcgill's doing all the WL locals and WL - Edinburghs and LB doing all the City stuff including all City tours is inevitable at some point.
Folk have possibly forgotten that it's illegal for operators to collude in terms of how their respective operations are carved up but the economic prospects for the industry are looking grim and the end result will be the same.
Running the 43 from a depot in Livingston sounds insane. Run it all from LB Central, make the city terminus as close as you like to Central. Purely my impressions from reading the chat with no axe to grind!
A combined 20 minute frequency splitting off into two services each with its own 40 minute frequency is a terrible prospect for those using the bus on the every 40 minutes sections.
An eventual outcome of Mcgill's doing all the WL locals and WL - Edinburghs and LB doing all the City stuff including all City tours is inevitable at some point.
Folk have possibly forgotten that it's illegal for operators to collude in terms of how their respective operations are carved up but the economic prospects for the industry are looking grim and the end result will be the same.
Running the 43 from a depot in Livingston sounds insane. Run it all from LB Central, make the city terminus as close as you like to Central. Purely my impressions from reading the chat with no axe to grind!
FlybeDash8Q400
Established Member
Having had a look at the potentials for XLB operation with @Bus9120UK, these are the routes that we think could benefit the most from having them:
11
16
25
31
37
44
100
In the long term routes like the 3, 22, 26 and the peak extra 34’s/35’s from Heriot Watt could benefit from XLB’s too. The 3 and 22 would probably be better being increased in frequency first though.
The total number of buses for all of those routes is somewhere around 175. Far short of the number of XLB’s Lothian have; which is 77. The 26 whilst it’s preferable is very unlikely anytime soon due to 466-495 being branded, but in the long term would be a good idea.
11
16
25
31
37
44
100
In the long term routes like the 3, 22, 26 and the peak extra 34’s/35’s from Heriot Watt could benefit from XLB’s too. The 3 and 22 would probably be better being increased in frequency first though.
The total number of buses for all of those routes is somewhere around 175. Far short of the number of XLB’s Lothian have; which is 77. The 26 whilst it’s preferable is very unlikely anytime soon due to 466-495 being branded, but in the long term would be a good idea.
496 might be well into next month before it’s done, it is probably at the back of the queue at Seafield with a good chance that 583, 588 and 590 are all ahead of it in the order that they’ll be sent to Ferrymill. 497 can’t be far away from a return to service though as it’s already back at Longstone.
Lothiangem22
Member
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- 160
25 is the priority for longstone just now with the students back and large loads at Heriot Watt, followed by the 3 then 44.
33’s are at the other end of the spectrum with dual door London’s happily suited for this route.
497 is sitting out the back at longstone with few checks to be done before entering service.
Marine is unlikely to see XLB’s in short term with the entrance to the depot through the pumps, which is reasonably tight. Although it is entirely possible it’s an increased risk for lothian seeing larger buses pass through this on a daily.
I'm glad I'm not the only who thinks an LC retreat from West Lothian, with McGill's giving up the City work and tours, is a likely outcome. I've been saying as such for some time on here (and been scoffed and laughed at for saying so).
ScotRail158725
Established Member
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The 3 is much more warranting of XLBs than the 44. It could probably even still warrant them on a 10 minute frequency, which it should never have been reduced from.
I suspect that those of us with longer memories will have seen how these things pan out eventually - not just a West Lothian question, plenty of precedents elsewhere. Generally speaking incursions such as LCB and Bright Bus Tours give temporary benefits to users, some temporary additional options for the labour market and additional interest for bus enthusiasts but the slogan "follow the money" eventually trumps all considerations and viability becomes the focus. Remember that ultimately the Accountants who control the purse-strings of the companies have much more power than the Planners.
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It's funny you should say that as I can remember the LRT invasion of West Lothian in the early nineties. Had LRT gone out there on day one of deregulation, as they did in East Lothian and Midlothian, they may have stood a chance. By the time they did so, it was nearly five years into deregulation and SMT was in a strong position to defend the routes that LRT were competing on.
It was perhaps no great surprise when LRT quit West Lothian, along with Queensferry, a few years later. What was a surprise was SMT dropping half of its City Sprinter network in response. I suspect that a reduction in the City Sprinter network was the price that SMT were willing to pay in return for having a free rein in West Lothian, and as LRT were running spoiler services over parts of the City Sprinter routes which were being dropped, they were seen as being no big loss.
Quite why LC started up in West Lothian when the odds were stacked against it from the start, we'll never know. As you say, competition brings short-term benefits to bus passengers but little or no long-term ones, and ultimately it's the accountants who have the final say.
Darklord8899
Member
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- 6 Jul 2018
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- 690
The 3 on a Sunday could benefit from XLB's as well, quite often I'm jammed in like a tin of sardines
ScotRail158725
Established Member
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It could benefit from them all day every day
Darklord8899
Member
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- 690
I totally agree.... Hearts home games are another time 3/25 especially busy - folks are swinging off the rafters
The B8L is still listed on Volvo's website, which looks like it's kept up to date. I can't see Alexander Dennis refusing to make more XLB bodies. MCV also have an option for the chassis. Lothian have committed to Euro 6, but understandably no commitment to Zero Emission only.
So I think if they can afford to order more, there would be nothing stopping them.
So I think if they can afford to order more, there would be nothing stopping them.
More XLB's would be great in my opinion, with a second wheelchair space, and maybe even smartseat? I know despite looking "cheaper" they are much more popular and comfortable among people. @FlybeDash8Q400 has suggested a large order to replace the 59 11 plate B9's.
LothianBusesPh
Member
Yes, Definitely a second Wheelchair space, and with foldup seats at the space so if they're not being used then you can sit in them (Sure there will be enough space?)
Either way a second space would be grand.
FlybeDash8Q400
Established Member
By law a wheelchair space on a bus must have a backrest. These can have a Foldup seat (just as most Lothian vehicles used to) or be entirely fixed (as most are now).
I’d imagine if they added a second wheelchair space they’d have the layout comparable to the E400mmc’s. The door side would stay as it is now on the XLB’s, but the drivers side would have an additional space behind the stairs.
Blindtraveler
Established Member
I'd really like to see some of the the MCV bodied b8l come to Edinburgh. Not least because I'm sure they'll be far better built
FlybeDash8Q400
Established Member
Than the E400XLB’s? Aren’t MCV the ones infamous for poor build quality? I know the current lot of MCV products are better built than their predecessors but I still think ADL builds better than MCV.
Lothianbus703
Member
Im imagining what they would look like in the livery and they would look great!
Alexander Dennis (AD) seem to have Lothian's attention at the moment if you look at order history (XLBs, 400s and the Electric City deckers) so I reckon the MCV order for the B8Rs was because AD simply didn't have a product despite the many rumours they were meant to be working on something for it.
With no insight to how the organisation views the build quality, reliability and value for money of those respective purchases we have to run with the assumption it's fairly similar viewpoint.
We know Lothian like to standardise like any major purchaser would.
So on that basis MCV bodies on deckers seems like an outside bet, but still a possibility especially if say they offered a key price, or delivery date that AD couldn't?
But either way I think an order for deckers is going to come fairly soon.
With no insight to how the organisation views the build quality, reliability and value for money of those respective purchases we have to run with the assumption it's fairly similar viewpoint.
We know Lothian like to standardise like any major purchaser would.
So on that basis MCV bodies on deckers seems like an outside bet, but still a possibility especially if say they offered a key price, or delivery date that AD couldn't?
But either way I think an order for deckers is going to come fairly soon.
The rest is hyperbole, but operating all city tours? Seriously?
stevenedin
Established Member
Bright Bus Tours do well in Edinburgh. It would take an agreement that Lothian Country pull out of West Lothian for them to agree to it.
As for the X22, X24 and X25 pulling out of Edinburgh, I can’t see it as they are completely different routes to the X18, X27 and X28 and only at points overlap so that seems to work.
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New timetables are now online. Seems to be very little change from the current woefully poor timings unfortunately. An extra 4 minutes added onto off-peak daytime journeys on both the X28 and X18 will be nowhere near enough to make the service more reliable, although layover looks to have been increased at the Edinburgh end. No change at all at night for the the X27/X28 despite late running of 10-15 minutes commonplace at the moment.
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FlybeDash8Q400
Established Member
Realistically the X22 could be cut back to Livi Centre and be renumbered as a 22. Whilst this would leave Blackburn without a direct service to Edinburgh I can still see this as a realistic outcome if an agreement happened. The X25 doesn’t go through to Edinburgh that often (peak times, evenings and Sundays only) so if it were cut I don’t think it would have too much of an impact. Peak extras only retained I’d say.
The only route that really has to stay is the X24, which could probably run on Sundays in place of the X25.
Again Lothiancountry would need to change their network accordingly.
stevenedin
Established Member
The link will be lost from Gorgie and western Dalry and also Hermiston Park & Ride to West Lothian if that happened. If they were to do what you said even running them as 22 to Livingston Centre from Shotts/Whitburn and one and hour to Edinburgh as an X22 even if it starts at Whitburn/Livingston Centre instead of Shotts.
Do the 40/X40 not cover this? At least till Livingston where passengers can change bus.
VioletEclipse
Member
yes, but it runs very infrequently, is frequently cancelled and takes a circuitous route. Some people do use it from Livi to Hermiston but it's often not the most convenient.
FlybeDash8Q400
Established Member
I don’t think the lack of bus serving Hermiston Park and Ride would be a particular problem. Gorgie perhaps, but again how well used is it on these sections?
Lothian would no doubt have to adjust as well, and let’s say they did end up running the 20, 63 and 68 then I wonder how they would do it. The problem with the 68 is Lothian don’t have a suitable size vehicle to run it apart from the Milkfloats, and we’re told they’re pretty much in the bin. A 7900 for me is too large for the 68.
ScotRail158725
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It runs hourly, isn’t frequently cancelled and only 4 buses a day take the circuitous route when the other 9 are in fact quicker than the X22 counterpart.
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Even the buses taking the circuitous route are slightly quicker.
overthewater
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- 16 Apr 2012
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- 8,394
Lothian should have went in 2012 when First were still in a mess in the area, but they got distracted by Mid/East Lothian in 2016. Within a few weeks of seeing what Lothian were planning back in 2018, I wasn't convinced it was going to work. People just don't like hearing the truth. I do truly wish it turned out differently and Lothian won but not with that effort ,but it's is what it is...
I don't think even that would be enough for Bright bus tours to disappear, its most viable asset in the Livingston depot.