Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[OmniCity999]

Would taxing all the vehicles not be a substantial cost when I imagine every penny spent is going to be scrutinised post Covid? I may be wrong but this looks like to me they envisage an entry into service in January as planned. Certainly even after the recent government announcement some routes have retained decent loadings.

...surely they'd be taxed eventually anyway, so the cost is justified? /the cost will be spent eventually anyway.

in line with maintenance, new singles could be introduced as others go off for routine maintenance, MOT's etc. As said above, service increase on certain services could be justified - and this could be the case soon. Especially for those that have to be single deck routes.

im not having a go, i appreciate this may look quite confrontational, its just how my messy brain works.

 

[route101]

763 is sitting outside Seafield still. not a lot has been taken so far but id expect it to stay as a donor until the remaining Geminis are withdrawn


even in these times night buses are useful even if theres a minimal people using them

Yet in Glasgow the nightbus network was shrunk and has not run since March.

 

[OmniCity999]

Yet in Glasgow the nightbus network was shrunk and has not run since March.

Without wishing to cause an argument, would that maybe show that buses in Edinburgh are run for people not necessarily for profit?

Which can also be observed in the massive loses this year.

which can also be attributed to a previous managers penchant for spending ludicrous amounts of money on questionable things

 

[Jordan Adam]

Without wishing to cause an argument, would that maybe show that buses in Edinburgh are run for people not necessarily for profit?

Which can also be observed in the massive loses this year.

I agree, but also that the geographic and demographic of Edinburgh generally better favours night buses, even during these current times.

 

[OmniCity999]

I agree, but also that the geographic and demographic of Edinburgh generally better favours night buses, even during these current times.

i wholeheartedly agree - and you pointing that out has just shown that it is a really interesting observation/view. I had never put huge amounts of thought into it, versus other cities. One of the unique properties of Edinburghs Transport being effected by its geography.

 

[Jordan Adam]

i wholeheartedly agree - and you pointing that out has just shown that it is a really interesting observation/view. I had never put huge amounts of thought into it, versus other cities. One of the unique properties of Edinburghs Transport being effected by its geography.

By geography i was more referring to it being a more dense city particularly around the centre whereas Glasgow is more spread out, however that is an interesting point you raise. Of course there is also the blatantly obvious difference that Glasgow is built to be very car-centric, so naturally more people will drive rather than using public transport regardless of how good (or not) the service is.

The way Edinburgh is built and its roads are set out it's far more favourable to bus route corridors. It's somewhat hard to explain but basically at times of lower bus usage it's easier to maintain a higher level of service as you can run one fairly direct and frequent service along a corridor rather than various less direct infrequent routes, whereas with Glasgow (except maybe to the north west of the city centre) it's not as easy to do that as if you did you would leave large areas unserved. I guess it mostly stems from the fact that although Glasgow does have a main city centre there are various "town hubs" around the city that almost act as their own separate city centre entirely.

I'm not really a huge fan of comparing different public transport networks, especially when there's so many variables that can play a part and you have two cities as vastly different as Edinburgh and Glasgow. Although there's no doubt that Lothian's offering is far above that of the Glasgow operators a good bus network/operator doesn't necessarily mean higher bus usage or greater profitability, yes it's a factor but it's not the only factor. There's other influences such as public transport integration, bus priority measures, traffic levels, geography, population demographics, costs of city centre parking and good partnerships with local authorities just to name a few which can all have a big impact.

Sorry if that came off as a bit of a rant, but i thought it would be worth while going in to a bit more detail.

 

[Scotrail88]

Without wishing to cause an argument, would that maybe show that buses in Edinburgh are run for people not necessarily for profit?

Which can also be observed in the massive loses this year.

which can also be attributed to a previous managers penchant for spending ludicrous amounts of money on questionable things

No loses will be incurred by any operator given the current funding arrangements so all Lothian are doing is running night services with available resources. Elsewhere are focusing that resource (given drivers are still ill, self isolating, etc) on daytime services for higher numbers.

Glasgow only provided night services at weekends but think the demographics and passenger make up makes Edinburgh more attractive to people and more of a suitable night network.

 

[Lothianbus703]

I know this is completely unrelated to the topic but Happy new year everyone!

 

[Graham Alexand]

I know this is completely unrelated to the topic but Happy new year everyone!

Happy New Year

 

[Lothianbus703]

Thanks

 

[Graeme Duncan]

All the best for 2021.

 

[route101]

No loses will be incurred by any operator given the current funding arrangements so all Lothian are doing is running night services with available resources. Elsewhere are focusing that resource (given drivers are still ill, self isolating, etc) on daytime services for higher numbers.

Glasgow only provided night services at weekends but think the demographics and passenger make up makes Edinburgh more attractive to people and more of a suitable night network.

Its interesting though, yes Edinburgh is more compact, you are never really far away from a Lothian bus route, network is denser too. In Glasgow a lot of less frequent routes have been palmed off to tender, less people use them.

As for night buses, Glasgow appears to have more private hires and are cheap by UK standards. Where i stay outside Glasgow, is very car centric and i stay least 20 mins walk from nearest bus stop with service to City Centre. Demographic too, notice all demographics using bus in Edinburgh, in Glasgow its heavily skewed to the lower end. Of course Edinburgh lacks a suburban network. Interesting to compare but both are quite different.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Its interesting though, yes Edinburgh is more compact, you are never really far away from a Lothian bus route, network is denser too. In Glasgow a lot of less frequent routes have been palmed off to tender, less people use them.

As for night buses, Glasgow appears to have more private hires and are cheap by UK standards. Where i stay outside Glasgow, is very car centric and i stay least 20 mins walk from nearest bus stop with service to City Centre. Demographic too, notice all demographics using bus in Edinburgh, in Glasgow its heavily skewed to the lower end. Of course Edinburgh lacks a suburban network. Interesting to compare but both are quite different.

Additionally out with Covid Edinburgh has far higher levels of tourism and students, both demographics which are heavily bias towards public transport.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Of course Edinburgh lacks a suburban network.

Do you mean Edinburgh lacks a suburban rail network? The suburban buses in Edinburgh seem reasonable although people often complain about too many bus routes going through the city centre, especially Princes Street. I believe the tram in Edinburgh barely attracts half the passengers of Glasgow's Subway and it goes along Princes St too. Of course there was never a PTE for Edinburgh. Rather different beasts all round and comparisons aren't straightforward.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Of course Edinburgh lacks a suburban network

Don’t the cross city routes count as a Suburban network? 21,38,200,400 as each of them have connections along the routes to various parts of the city, with the 21 and 400 interworking at the RIE and Wester Hailes, the 200 at Drum Brae and 38 in Granton/RIE

 

[Bus9120UK]

A video on tiktok was released of a crash earlier today with what looks like bus 1023 (not sure) with a taxi. Damage is on the left side. https://www.tiktok.com/@lothianborders999/video/6912803886747208961

Tiktok description states that it happened on Murrayburn Road which is close to Longstone, a lucky location!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

A video on tiktok was released of a crash earlier today with what looks like bus 1023 (not sure) with a taxi. Damage is on the left side. https://www.tiktok.com/@lothianborders999/video/6912803886747208961

Tiktok description states that it happened on Murrayburn Road which is close to Longstone, a lucky location!

Yep, looks like it's 1023: https://bustimes.org/vehicles/15672?date=2020-12-31#journeys/96558042

 

[route101]

Do you mean Edinburgh lacks a suburban rail network? The suburban buses in Edinburgh seem reasonable although people often complain about too many bus routes going through the city centre, especially Princes Street. I believe the tram in Edinburgh barely attracts half the passengers of Glasgow's Subway and it goes along Princes St too. Of course there was never a PTE for Edinburgh. Rather different beasts all round and comparisons aren't straightforward.

Yes I meant rail network.

Love or loathe it, a expanded Edinburgh tram network will be more useful than the Glasgow Subway. SPT PTE is weak nowadays, outdated ticket options.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Yes I meant rail network.

Love or loathe it, a expanded Edinburgh tram network will be more useful than the Glasgow Subway. SPT PTE is weak nowadays, outdated ticket options.

Weak, but we can be happy with how cheap some of our rail tickets are here compared to other parts of the country, as well as the Boxing Day services we get to enjoy.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Don’t the cross city routes count as a Suburban network? 21,38,200,400 as each of them have connections along the routes to various parts of the city, with the 21 and 400 interworking at the RIE and Wester Hailes, the 200 at Drum Brae and 38 in Granton/RIE

I must admit these four services sometimes strike me as being unloved routes. The 38 has always been a basket case in constant need of council subsidy and shows why the 'south sub' rail line is inappropriate for carrying passengers - which I don't think was ever a serious suggestion but the public often mention it. The 21 patronage can seem hit or miss and the vehicles often look like the depot leftovers. The 200 and 400 are new initiatives covering similar ground to the old 32 or 18, another dud, but maybe propped up by hopes that the airport section can breathe new life into them.

 

[Blindtraveler]

not happened for a while of course but pre pandemic the 21 could often run wedged for all or part of the route at certain times of day and it was a huge source of complaints when run a single deck. There was one famous occasion when my neighbour had to let 7 buses go before he can even contemplate boarding 1 with 3 bags of shopping

 

[Siemens Trains]

not happened for a while of course but pre pandemic the 21 could often run wedged for all or part of the route at certain times of day and it was a huge source of complaints when run a single deck. There was one famous occasion when my neighbour had to let 7 buses go before he can even contemplate boarding 1 with 3 bags of shopping

I think the history of it being single deck was because passengers wanted guaranteed step-free access on the 21 and a number of vehicles became available after converting the 22 to double deckers. But yes, the capacity shortfall could be a bugbear compounded by reliability issues associated with the route.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I must admit these four services sometimes strike me as being unloved routes. The 38 has always been a basket case in constant need of council subsidy and shows why the 'south sub' rail line is inappropriate for carrying passengers - which I don't think was ever a serious suggestion but the public often mention it. The 21 patronage can seem hit or miss and the vehicles often look like the depot leftovers. The 200 and 400 are new initiatives covering similar ground to the old 32 or 18, another dud, but maybe propped up by hopes that the airport section can breathe new life into them.

Have you ever seen a peak time (pre covid) 38?! Standing to the doors most of the time!

 

[Siemens Trains]

Have you ever seen a peak time (pre covid) 38?! Standing to the doors most of the time!

Even in recent times I've had some difficulty finding a suitable seat on the 38 around Craigleith. When I was a regular user of the 38 (in the 1980s) it could certainly be busy with school children at peak times. Similarly the 42/46 could be absolutely chockers in my experience through Causewayside. At deregulation I was quite surprised when LRT said they didn't want to run these routes, and I believe the same reluctance persists 35 years later. Maybe there isn't enough trade along the whole route, the demand could be seasonal/erratic or perhaps the number of passengers off peak is low.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Yep, looks like it's 1023: https://bustimes.org/vehicles/15672?date=2020-12-31#journeys/96558042

What a good start of the year for Lothian.

Well the upside the eVoRa's should be coming into service this month.

 

[tbtc]

the 42/46 could be absolutely chockers in my experience through Causewayside. At deregulation I was quite surprised when LRT said they didn't want to run these routes, and I believe the same reluctance persists 35 years later. Maybe there isn't enough trade along the whole route, the demand could be seasonal/erratic or perhaps the number of passengers off peak is low.

The current 42 through Causewayside feels like one of those "secondary" routes that could run every ten minutes or better (as far as Cameron Toll at least) but a half hourly frequency is so useless that many able bodied people will make the short walk to South Bridge/ Newington Road - certainly during term time at least.

But how many people can you expect to wait up to half an hour for their 42, when there's a bus every minute from less than a five minute walk away?

(Same goes in other cities, of course - look at how First have thinned out the "secondary" routes in Glasgow - it goes on everywhere)

As for the 21 - I think a few outsiders forget just how big Leith is - hence the demand for some routes that appear to be "orbital"

 

[Bus9120UK]

What a good start of the year for Lothian.

Well the upside the eVoRa's should be coming into service this month.

Yeah - shame. Feel sorry for the driver, must've been a terrible start for 2021. Fault of the taxi driver trying to pass the bus to get into a street, didn't make it, hit 1023

 

[Lothianbus703]

Just a question but does the 44 count as a cross city route?

 

[Graham Alexand]

Yeah - shame. Feel sorry for the driver, must've been a terrible start for 2021. Fault of the taxi driver trying to pass the bus to get into a street, didn't make it, hit 1023

Did the taxi take off after it, in the video I can only see police cars?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Did the taxi take off after it, in the video I can only see police cars?

I believe it was blocking the entrance to the street behind the person filming (according to a comment on the tiktok) - Most likely hit it then continued before stopping or swerved over.