Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[TheEastCoaster]

Just a question but does the 44 count as a cross city route?

As it runs all the way from Balerno in the farwest to Brunstane/Eastfield (and Wallyford just out the city boundaries obviously) it does count

Do you reckon if LCB were to run along Balerno would they put it in the CityWest Zone? Or just beyond it on Lanark Road West? I noticed one empty Edinburgh bus stop on the A70 at Christmas time when I went along that road so I imagine like Dalmahoy it’s very out of place

How was the 231 today? Anyone see it in action?

 

[OmniCity999]

How was the 231 today? Anyone see it in action?

It ran, but its a tight route!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

It ran, but its a tight route!

Should have used the StreetAirs instead!!

</sarcasm>

 

[OmniCity999]

Should have used the StreetAirs instead!!

</sarcasm>

i realise this is sarcasm, although certain "enthusiasts" will bring it up for the rest of existence after reading this...

lets just say that would have been a terrible idea and theres numerous reasons it never happened.

i just cant be bothered explaining.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

i realise this is sarcasm, although certain members will bring it up for the rest of existence after reading this...

lets just say that would have been a terrible idea and theres numerous reasons it never happened.

i just cant be bothered explaining.

Yes, I think it was brought up last week too.

A fully electric drivetrain on a rural route is a recipe for disaster IMO.

 

[OmniCity999]

Yes, I think it was brought up last week too.

A fully electric drivetrain on a rural route is a recipe for disaster IMO.

Annoyingly, this forum is prone to going round in circles.

That's a matter of opinion, Electric drivetrain is the future.

Just so happens the Wright StreetAirs are awful, they have given electric drivetrains a bad name. Other manufacturers are far better. The BYD stuff is excellent.

 

[Graham Alexand]

I believe it was blocking the entrance to the street behind the person filming (according to a comment on the tiktok) - Most likely hit it then continued before stopping or swerved over.

Oh, ok thanks .

Annoyingly, this forum is prone to going round in circles.

That's a matter of opinion, Electric drivetrain is the future.

Just so happens the Wright StreetAirs are awful, they have given electric drivetrains a bad name. Other manufacturers are far better. The BYD stuff is excellent.

I think that Lothian Country's ex London B9TL's would have been great for it, if it wasn't for the low bridge in Linlithgow.

Would have been easier to navigate in the narrow roads and tight corners.
But this is a sort of "what if".

 

[GusB]

I think that Lothian Country's ex London B9TL's would have been great for it, if it wasn't for the low bridge in Linlithgow.

Hence why they aren't great for it!

(unless they're thinking of expanding the open-top fleet)

 

[OmniCity999]

I'd like to imagine if Lothian Country did go after some of the West Lothian tenders, suitably sized vehicles could be sourced for such routes.

A hand full of Mercedes Sprinter Cities would be ideally suited to some of the West Lothian routes, but it would more likely be Enviro 200's.

This would also allow the company to go after other routes, the Bathgate town services perhaps? Are these tendered?

 

[Graham Alexand]

Hence why they aren't great for it!

(unless they're thinking of expanding the open-top fleet)

Fair enough, we already have a open top bus for Lothian Country, we dont need another . (1029)

Is their a mistake on bustimes.org or are Lothian Country getting the 231 every Friday.

V*I have attached the link below*V

231 - Livingston - Bathgate via Linlithgow – Lothian Country Buses – bustimes.org

 

[OmniCity999]

Fair enough, we already have a open top bus for Lothian Country, we dont need another . (1029)

Is their a mistake on bustimes.org or are Lothian Country getting the 231 every Friday.

V*I have attached the link below*V

231 - Livingston - Bathgate via Linlithgow – Lothian Country Buses – bustimes.org

no, they arent. The service was registered by day.

if they had it every Friday, do you not think they would have announced that?

 

[Graham Alexand]

no, they arent. The service was registered by day.

if they had it every Friday, do you not think they would have announced that?

Yeah true, maybe I should have checked Lothian's website aswell.

After the withdrawal of all B7RLE Wright Eclipse Urban's, what will replace the training fleet, will it just be normal service buses doing it?

 

[Bwsbro]

Fair enough, we already have a open top bus for Lothian Country, we dont need another . (1029)

Is their a mistake on bustimes.org or are Lothian Country getting the 231 every Friday.

V*I have attached the link below*V

231 - Livingston - Bathgate via Linlithgow – Lothian Country Buses – bustimes.org

It was a Christmas Day only service

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Hopefully they go for it when the tenders come out, might be handy for their network to have a Linlithgow to Livingston/Bathgate service

 

[Graham Alexand]

It was a Christmas Day only service

I hadn't checked Lothian Buses website first.

The 231 ran on 25/26th December 2020 and 1st January 2021.

It was going to run on 2nd January 2021 but got withdrawn from it (I think this may have been Covid-19 related).

 

[Siemens Trains]

Don’t the cross city routes count as a Suburban network? 21,38,200,400

Would it have been better to call the listed routes 'orbital' rather than 'cross city'? They tend to traverse the city by going around rather than through the centre. While they link suburbs, it isn't the same idea as suburban rail in general which takes passengers from suburbs of a city to its own urban zone. As for transfers on these listed services, this is likely to be unattractive due to fairly low frequency. I'm sometimes lucky with changing to the 21, 38 or 200 but when you need to wait (often in a bleak environment) it can be soul destroying.

Just a question but does the 44 count as a cross city route?

Yes, that's certainly what I'd call it. The 44 is a suburban service in both senses - it links a few suburbs reasonably well but it also provides a route to the city centre, especially with its X44 companion.

As it runs all the way from Balerno in the farwest to Brunstane/Eastfield (and Wallyford just out the city boundaries obviously) it does count

Do you reckon if LCB were to run along Balerno would they put it in the CityWest Zone? Or just beyond it on Lanark Road West? I noticed one empty Edinburgh bus stop on the A70 at Christmas time when I went along that road so I imagine like Dalmahoy it’s very out of place

I don't think Balerno would be the first candidate for a premium fare zone, and of course First operate on a flat fare in Balerno. If you're thinking of a commercial LCB service between Balerno and Kirknewton I'd expect a fare boundary outside Balerno. But in my opinion such a route would be commercially weak in any case.

 

[OmniCity999]

Yeah true, maybe I should have checked Lothian's website aswell.

After the withdrawal of all B7RLE Wright Eclipse Urban's, what will replace the training fleet, will it just be normal service buses doing it?

Not all of the Eclipses are being withdrawn.

A training school isn't required for the time being, at least not in the sense of having a dedicated fleet.

Training can be outsourced for small quantities of candidates, while in other cases, "L" plates can be applied to an out of service service vehicle.

Type training can be done with any vehicle.

Should the need arise in the future, some later Eclipses may be painted and adapted for the training fleet. But as I understand it, there are no immediate plans.

This was recently covered in this forum and its predecessor.

 

[Graham Alexand]

Not all of the Eclipses are being withdrawn.

A training school isn't required for the time being, at least not in the sense of having a dedicated fleet.

Training can be outsourced for small quantities of candidates, while in other cases, "L" plates can be applied to an out of service service vehicle.

Type training can be done with any vehicle.

Should the need arise in the future, some later Eclipses may be painted and adapted for the training fleet. But as I understand it, there are no immediate plans.

This was recently covered in this forum and its predecessor.

Thanks.
What Wright Eclipse Urban's are getting kept?

(I'm not Meaning the Eclipse 2s)

 

[scosutsut]

Thanks.
What Wright Eclipse Urban's are getting kept?

(I'm not Meaning the Eclipse 2s)

I think the current suggestion is none, however I suspect this question will likely annoy those that are in a position to answer it, as it feels like it's been asked quite a number of times now so I'd tread carefully.

The MCV Evora's are coming in. That's obviously well known and understood. That's going to cascade the Volvo Hybrids downwards which, you would think would naturally displace Eclipse/Eclipse 2s.

30 are coming in, so conventional wisdom would dictate that a similar number of older vehicles could be disposed of. I've not been keeping track of how many Eclipses have gone but it's not an insignificant number.

However it's hard to know what will be needed in the longer term due to the fact that current and future operations will be affected by COVID, and the fact that operations change. Routes get cut, lengthened, upgraded to doubles or downgraded to single - all as examples I'm not saying any of this is on the cards, merely that it is always possible.

We also know the hybrids need to stay in use, as pure diesels can be parked up without as much concern. So what picture emerges post MCV intro might not reflect the longer term plan.

We also don't know if there are any intention to shift Eclipses to ECB or LCB. Both have received them in the past.

So TL: DR; I don't think anyone will know for 100% sure, I'd sit tight and see what happens, as I think we're all going to be finding out at the same time.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I think the current suggestion is none, however I suspect this question will likely annoy those that are in a position to answer it, as it feels like it's been asked quite a number of times now so I'd tread carefully.

The MCV Evora's are coming in. That's obviously well known and understood. That's going to cascade the Volvo Hybrids downwards which, you would think would naturally displace Eclipse/Eclipse 2s.

30 are coming in, so conventional wisdom would dictate that a similar number of older vehicles could be disposed of. I've not been keeping track of how many Eclipses have gone but it's not an insignificant number.

However it's hard to know what will be needed in the longer term due to the fact that current and future operations will be affected by COVID, and the fact that operations change. Routes get cut, lengthened, upgraded to doubles or downgraded to single - all as examples I'm not saying any of this is on the cards, merely that it is always possible.

We also know the hybrids need to stay in use, as pure diesels can be parked up without as much concern. So what picture emerges post MCV intro might not reflect the longer term plan.

We also don't know if there are any intention to shift Eclipses to ECB or LCB. Both have received them in the past.

So TL: DR; I don't think anyone will know for 100% sure, I'd sit tight and see what happens, as I think we're all going to be finding out at the same time.

As far as I understand, almost all of the Eclipse (urban) 1s across LB/ECB/LCB have left the fleet via Ensign or direct to Horsburgh etc, I think there's only small handful if any left (I saw one 04 plate at Marine when I was down there the other week) and some of the training fleet are still at Longstone.

Not sure how many that compromises across the three fleets though? Definitely more than 30 though.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Lothian Country's 280 is to run to an amended timetable from 4th January to help "key workers" during the level 4 restrictions: https://www.lothianbuses.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/280_timetable_from_4_Jan.pdf

Unfortunately I cannot quote anything as the Facebook post takes you directly to the PDF timetable (which I have linked above).

 

[route101]

The current 42 through Causewayside feels like one of those "secondary" routes that could run every ten minutes or better (as far as Cameron Toll at least) but a half hourly frequency is so useless that many able bodied people will make the short walk to South Bridge/ Newington Road - certainly during term time at least.

But how many people can you expect to wait up to half an hour for their 42, when there's a bus every minute from less than a five minute walk away?

(Same goes in other cities, of course - look at how First have thinned out the "secondary" routes in Glasgow - it goes on everywhere)

As for the 21 - I think a few outsiders forget just how big Leith is - hence the demand for some routes that appear to be "orbital"

I remember using using the 42/46 when I was younger, was usually a Atlantean. Cant recall if it was any frequency, but now relatives walk up to Newington. I think the 42 is useful to get to Portobello.

Yeah Glasgow, a lot of the secondary routes have been split and gone to tender.

 

[Graham Alexand]

As far as I understand, almost all of the Eclipse (urban) 1s across LB/ECB/LCB have left the fleet via Ensign or direct to Horsburgh etc, I think there's only small handful if any left (I saw one 04 plate at Marine when I was down there the other week) and some of the training fleet are still at Longstone.

Not sure how many that compromises across the three fleets though? Definitely more than 30 though.

What other B7RLE's went to E&M Horsburgh other than 10101 (RIG 6491) 10102 (RIG6492) or was it just these two?

 

[Siemens Trains]

I remember using using the 42/46 when I was younger, was usually a Atlantean. Cant recall if it was any frequency, but now relatives walk up to Newington. I think the 42 is useful to get to Portobello.

Yeah Glasgow, a lot of the secondary routes have been split and gone to tender.

In the late 1970s or early 1980s service 42 ran every 12 minutes Mon-Sat daytime and every 20 minutes on Sundays and every evening. It took about an hour going around the Porty circle, so I guess a PVR of 10 Atlanteans would do the trick, with one or two on standby at the depot if necessary. Totally rammed with students on some occasions but I suppose LRT must have had plenty data on its evening and Sunday potential with running every 20 minutes to realise how poor the business case was for even an hourly frequency.
At some point service 20 went down Causewayside as well but its timetable was rather erratic. Pretty sure it was scrapped around 1986 but any historians on the forum will know much better than me.

 

[takno]

In the late 1970s or early 1980s service 42 ran every 12 minutes Mon-Sat daytime and every 20 minutes on Sundays and every evening. It took about an hour going around the Porty circle, so I guess a PVR of 10 Atlanteans would do the trick, with one or two on standby at the depot if necessary. Totally rammed with students on some occasions but I suppose LRT must have had plenty data on its evening and Sunday potential with running every 20 minutes to realise how poor the business case was for even an hourly frequency.
At some point service 20 went down Causewayside as well but its timetable was rather erratic. Pretty sure it was scrapped around 1986 but any historians on the forum will know much better than me.

I once had a good friend show up at my flat 40 minutes late, wet and shivering because he'd waited that long for a 42. And that in spite of only having been a 15 minute walk away, and knowing that the 42 was irregular and the buses down the main road were every couple of minutes. It was at that point that I realised that people are basically completely irrational, and it's not worth trying to employ reason at all when planning bus routes.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

As it runs all the way from Balerno in the farwest to Brunstane/Eastfield (and Wallyford just out the city boundaries obviously) it does count

Do you reckon if LCB were to run along Balerno would they put it in the CityWest Zone? Or just beyond it on Lanark Road West? I noticed one empty Edinburgh bus stop on the A70 at Christmas time when I went along that road so I imagine like Dalmahoy it’s very out of place

I think you would have to keep Balerno in the city zone - it forms a natural outer limit for the zone. I'm not sure where else you would put the boundary otherwise as there is no obvious gap in the continuous built up area along the route to use

You'd also have to consider the outer edges of other LB routes - Penicuik, Gorebridge, Seton Sands, Tranent for example are all further out from the city centre than Balerno, I think you'd have a lot of pushback if Balerno was put into a higher fare zone without changing others

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I think you would have to keep Balerno in the city zone - it forms a natural outer limit for the zone. I'm not sure where else you would put the boundary otherwise as there is no obvious gap in the continuous built up area along the route to use

You'd also have to consider the outer edges of other LB routes - Penicuik, Gorebridge, Seton Sands, Tranent for example are all further out from the city centre than Balerno, I think you'd have a lot of pushback if Balerno was put into a higher fare zone without changing others

That is true, and besides why bother fix what’s not broken?

Also I know Lothian run 1.80 to Seton Sands, but is there a reason why Prentice have Seton Sands in a Higher fare zone?

 

[OmniCity999]

That is true, and besides why bother fix what’s not broken?

Also I know Lothian run 1.80 to Seton Sands, but is there a reason why Prentice have Seton Sands in a Higher fare zone?

Just a guess, but with Lothian being a considerably larger operation they can justify being that bit cheaper.

the flat fare system is probably one of the best things about Lothian - methinks though, it wont last forever!

 

[Ian Cunningham]

That is true, and besides why bother fix what’s not broken?

Also I know Lothian run 1.80 to Seton Sands, but is there a reason why Prentice have Seton Sands in a Higher fare zone?

Prentice base their 2 zones from Haddington whereas ECB/LCB base theirs from Edinburgh out- the urban area being largely flat fare (£1.60 single) and the rural being variable with distance
Despite bring in different sones the fare to Seton Sands and the fare to Port Seton are the same.

Not sure why the line is drawn there - it would seem to make sense to put Cockenzie, Port Seton and Seton Sands together in one zone or another
The 109 route is also a bit weird as it meanders between zones twice along the route

 

[Baileygirl]

I hadn't checked Lothian Buses website first.

The 231 ran on 25/26th December 2020 and 1st January 2021.

It was going to run on 2nd January 2021 but got withdrawn from it (I think this may have been Covid-19 related).

tender was for three days. Lothian country was going to run a commercial Saturday service on the 2nd so West Lothian Council did not include the 2nd in the tender. Lothian Country then reduced the service to that of New years day leaving a lot of West Lothian without a service, mainly in the South of the county.