Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[CN04NRJ]

Thats alright, im not known for being very clear...

It is my thought the delay was waiting for the decision wether or not the system was to be updated. Now that decision has been made, the delay has been extended due to waiting for the manufacturer making a defunct product for this batch.

If we say the decision was made not to go ahead with the updates in ~July, then these started to arrive a couple months ago - the new (old) product was ordered, then the time to make that old product, for the whole batch, its substantial.

But it is little things like this that cause delays.

It explains why before entering service, every batch of buses goes to Seafield and sits there for between 2 weeks and 2 months, waiting on AVL's. They need to manufacture a product that they havent offered for years - its a custom order.

Other operators are able to order a bus and press it into service as and when required, because the manufacturer of the vehicle can just install it. Whereas we're fighting with the antiquated system, it takes longer. The bus is built, sent to us and we install the systems.

Thanks for the answer. Probably a daft question - but can the AVLs from withdrawn vehicles not be reused in new vehicles or is it just seen as more prudent to install new equipment in new vehicles?

I recall when I first started driving the company I worked for had a small batch of 61 plate E200s delivered late one morning in September - the first one was out in service the same day as quick as they could get the ticket machine wired in and some vinyls fitted!

It must be quite frustrating for the company to have assets sat depreciating for months waiting on obsolete (albeit very useful) equipment. I imagine it won't be this side of 2021 that we see any out?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Thanks for the answer. Probably a daft question - but can the AVLs from withdrawn vehicles not be reused in new vehicles or is it just seen as more prudent to install new equipment in new vehicles?

I recall when I first started driving the company I worked for had a small batch of 61 plate E200s delivered late one morning in September - the first one was out in service the same day as quick as they could get the ticket machine wired in and some vinyls fitted!

It must be quite frustrating for the company to have assets sat depreciating for months waiting on obsolete (albeit very useful) equipment. I imagine it won't be this side of 2021 that we see any out?

Pretty certain they can. Aberdeen reused the systems fitted to the Atlanteans on the B10BLEs, albeit that was nearly 20 years ago. Things may be different now.

 

[Lothiangem22]

I imagine it won't be this side of 2021 that we see any out?

Sadly time is probably vast running out to see them enter service in 2020 with Christmas and new year not far away. However, I suppose it depends on how many are currently in a “ready” state as seafield seems pretty full with the new vehicles.

 

[OmniCity999]

Thanks for the answer. Probably a daft question - but can the AVLs from withdrawn vehicles not be reused in new vehicles or is it just seen as more prudent to install new equipment in new vehicles?

I recall when I first started driving the company I worked for had a small batch of 61 plate E200s delivered late one morning in September - the first one was out in service the same day as quick as they could get the ticket machine wired in and some vinyls fitted!

It must be quite frustrating for the company to have assets sat depreciating for months waiting on obsolete (albeit very useful) equipment. I imagine it won't be this side of 2021 that we see any out?

Its entirely doable to recycle the units, however, chances are after being fitted to a vehicle for up to 15 years with power on 24/7, parts tend to deteriorate - getting replacements is not an option as they don't make them anymore so the parts aren't on shelf.

Then there's the issue of if we do that, down the line if one fails, we get the parts from another to keep it going, its likely to fail again due to the parts from the salvaged one also being fitted to a vehicle for up to 15 years!

So it would become an issue of replacing old with old en-masse and potentially having wide spread breakdowns. Which isn't ideal, as I believe these are used for more than just tracking.

There's also the issue that if we recycle them, they all have to be reprogrammed to the new vehicle - and its not just a case of changing the fleet number! When you're replacing fleet en-masse, like we tend to do, its not ideal to have a couple of people sitting doing this all day, its wasted time.

Speaking of wasted time, the maintenance also contributes to this, so newer systems are preferred in this regard too.

New units are the better option.

That being said, the first one delivered (i can't remember the number off the top of my head) but it has a recycled unit from one of the B7's for testing purposes, and so we could get brackets manufactured. (that takes time too!)

Newer systems are installed in build, so the vehicle would come complete from the factory including all tracking etc. This would be the ideal situation and what we were aiming for. Especially considering manufacturers are willing to deal with vehicles getting vinyls fitted too, we can take delivery of new stock and press it into service on the same day.

This might similar with your previous employer?

Sadly time is probably vast running out to see them enter service in 2020 with Christmas and new year not far away. However, I suppose it depends on how many are currently in a “ready” state as seafield seems pretty full with the new vehicles.

I have to agree with you somewhat. They may look ready on the outside, but their not complete unfortunately and the company isn't prepared to put them out into service as is.



Apologies for waffling - mum always said i'd make a great MP

 

[ScotRail158725]

Apologies for waffling - mum always said i'd make a great MP

No need to apologise, its quite an interesting read

 

[CN04NRJ]

No need to apologise, its quite an interesting read

Definitely an interesting read - I honestly didn't know how much work went in to getting our vehicles prepared for service. It's a shame that covid has put a stop to the new system - the current one is perfectly adequate when it's working but it's clear it's well past time for replacement.

I didn't realise just how much the AVL did until recently - won't go into detail as it's probably sensitive information but a fascinating piece of technology. Shame more companies haven't adopted the same system.

 

[scosutsut]

Definitely an interesting read, it exposes the often unseen complexity of some projects!

 

[VioletEclipse]

No need to apologise, its quite an interesting read

Agreed, thanks for explaining why the Evoras are sitting around unused despite being brand new. I'm guessing it'll be a while after new year before they receive their AVLs and enter service

 

[OmniCity999]

Agreed, thanks for explaining why the Evoras are sitting around unused despite being brand new. I'm guessing it'll be a while after new year before they receive their AVLs and enter service

I never said i was 100% sure, it's likely this may a contributing factor.

It might also be one of the reasons why new vehicles aren't in service yet. A decision might have been made between them arriving and now, which has delayed their entry to service. It would have meant them getting a new system or an old one. By the time the decision has been made, the company had to manufacture the outdated, inferior and off the book products for them, which takes time.

It is my thought the delay was waiting for the decision wether or not the system was to be updated. Now that decision has been made, the delay has been extended due to waiting for the manufacturer making a defunct product for this batch.

If we say the decision was made not to go ahead with the updates in ~July, then these started to arrive a couple months ago - the new (old) product was ordered, then the time to make that old product, for the whole batch, its substantial.

But it is little things like this that cause delays.

It explains why before entering service, every batch of buses goes to Seafield and sits there for between 2 weeks and 2 months, waiting on AVL's. They need to manufacture a product that they havent offered for years - its a custom order.

Other operators are able to order a bus and press it into service as and when required, because the manufacturer of the vehicle can just install it. Whereas we're fighting with the antiquated system, it takes longer. The bus is built, sent to us and we install the systems.

Getting looming and brackets made takes time, so this is likely a contributing factor.

 

[BobScott]

Noticed 9203 had Edinburgh Bus Tours legal lettering when it passed me on Princes Street earlier on an Amazon contract. Any reason for this?

I'd have guessed at having EBT drivers doing some of the work as most of the tours are off but I've seen drivers in tour uniform driving ECB services - or is it both?

EBT has got the Amazon contract that’s why the coaches have been transferred to them.

 

[figgi757]

EBT has got the Amazon contract that’s why the coaches have been transferred to them.

It’s actually an LMC contract. EBT use the Green Arrow coaches on the Edinburgh runs alongside LCB XLB’s.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

It’s actually an LMC contract. EBT use the Green Arrow coaches on the Edinburgh runs alongside LCB XLB’s.

I thought LCB got the contract?

 

[CN04NRJ]

I thought LCB got the contract?

All three are doing it in practice.

 

[OmniCity999]

Im hearing there's somewhere between 11-15 eVoRa's with Volvo in Cardonald for hardware commissioning - with the 5-8 we have on site, we're getting close to the order being finalised.

Once our hardware, vinyl, branding, advertising, Internet and PIS is installed after delivery, we'll be good to go. I reckon it'll be mid January when we see them all in Service.

 

[Graham Alexand]

This is unrelated to anything that has been posted here in the last two months.


Is there any photos of the refurbishment process of the Ex London B9TL's (1000-1050), thanks.

 

[figgi757]

This is unrelated to anything that has been posted here in the last two months.


Is there any photos of the refurbishment process of the Ex London B9TL's (1000-1050), thanks.

I don’t think so as these were done by Wrightbus and Thornton’s.

 

[OmniCity999]

This is unrelated to anything that has been posted here in the last two months.


Is there any photos of the refurbishment process of the Ex London B9TL's (1000-1050), thanks.

Pre Conversion (friends image)
Mid Conversion (friends image)
Mid Conversion 2 (friends image)
Mid Delivery (not my image)
Mid Delivery (not my image)

Side note, Routemasters mid-conversion at Seafield (not my image))

 

[Graham Alexand]

Pre Conversion (friends image)
Mid Conversion (friends image)
Mid Conversion 2 (friends image)
Mid Delivery (not my image)
Mid Delivery (not my image)

Side note, Routemasters mid-conversion at Seafield (not my image))

Thanks

 

[CN04NRJ]

Pre Conversion (friends image)
Mid Conversion (friends image)
Mid Conversion 2 (friends image)
Mid Delivery (not my image)
Mid Delivery (not my image)

Side note, Routemasters mid-conversion at Seafield (not my image))

I imagine these will probably outlive native B9s of the same age due to the extent of their refurbishment? Although I understand most of the B9s are due a euro 6 upgrade and partial refurb anyway (or am I imagining things on that one? )

 

[OmniCity999]

I imagine these will probably outlive native B9s of the same age due to the extent of their refurbishment? Although I understand most of the B9s are due a euro 6 upgrade and partial refurb anyway (or am I imagining things on that one? )

I'd imagine if Lothian Country continue, these will stick around with them until they are withdrawn.

With the influx of new vehicles next year, +100 vehicles will be removed from service. At this point, the +100 earmarked to be removed from service won't get any serious updates (although some may, depending on any manufacturing delays etc). Fleet members that are planned to stick around will begin to receive upgrades when Covid eases off. Parts and services are already purchased as such.

We will also be offering Euro 6 updates to B9's to buyers at their cost.

In terms of internal upgrades, it'll be a case of new sest coverings, renewed flooring and any snagging issues. Nothing too serious really. Just cosmetics. Although if the previous MD was still here, it probably would have been a case of completely new seating, flooring and repaint of internal plastics up to Fleet of the Future standards. That's a cost that we really don't need.

The real upgrades are due to exhaust systems and the such, as all B9's are adblue fitted already. Another aspect of it will be down to remapping the ECU and related components.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I'd imagine if Lothian Country continue, these will stick around with them until they are withdrawn.

With the influx of new vehicles next year, +100 vehicles will be removed from service. At this point, the +100 earmarked to be removed from service won't get any serious updates (although some may, depending on any manufacturing delays etc). Fleet members that are planned to stick around will begin to receive upgrades when Covid eases off. Parts and services are already purchased as such.

We will also be offering Euro 6 updates to B9's to buyers at their cost.

In terms of internal upgrades, it'll be a case of new sest coverings, renewed flooring and any snagging issues. Nothing too serious really. Just cosmetics. Although if the previous MD was still here, it probably would have been a case of completely new seating, flooring and repaint of internal plastics up to Fleet of the Future standards. That's a cost that we really don't need.

The real upgrades are due to exhaust systems and the such, as all B9's are adblue fitted already. Another aspect of it will be down to remapping the ECU and related components.

So would you say the refurb cosmetically is more likely to be something similar to 426-430 rather than the ex London B9TL’s? Hopefully 431-437 get the same upgrades at some point but I guess that will depend on how Skylink is long term...

 

[OmniCity999]

So would you say the refurb cosmetically is more likely to be something similar to 426-430 rather than the ex London B9TL’s? Hopefully 431-437 get the same upgrades at some point but I guess that will depend on how Skylink is long term...

No, more like a newer version of their old floors* and newer seat covers. Maintaining the current standard of their batch essentially.

A simple 5 year refresh, like what happens (or is supposed to happen) when a bus is repainted

Think 701's refresh before it's sale. New seat covers, refreshed flooring. (by using 701 as an example, im not saying tartan seating is making a come back, because its definitely not)

426-430 had considerable interior modifications done.

*should the floor and other parts still be available for purchase

 

[CN04NRJ]

No, more like a newer version of their old floors* and newer seat covers. Maintaining the current standard of their batch essentially.

A simple 5 year refresh, like what happens (or is supposed to happen) when a bus is repainted

Think 701's refresh before it's sale. New seat covers, refreshed flooring. (by using 701 as an example, im not saying tartan seating is making a come back, because its definitely not)

426-430 had considerable interior modifications done.

*should the floor and other parts still be available for purchase

I guess 551-570 will be the next batch of buses to go for repaint/retrim etc as I think 401-425 is almost done? I think it was 422 I saw out the other day freshly repainted, and it had the "Contactless Payments Accepted" vinyl (as fitted to the Airlinks) just above the destination display.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I guess 551-570 will be the next batch of buses to go for repaint/retrim etc as I think 401-425 is almost done? I think it was 422 I saw out the other day freshly repainted, and it had the "Contactless Payments Accepted" vinyl (as fitted to the Airlinks) just above the destination display.

The eVoRa's have them aswell

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I guess 551-570 will be the next batch of buses to go for repaint/retrim etc as I think 401-425 is almost done? I think it was 422 I saw out the other day freshly repainted, and it had the "Contactless Payments Accepted" vinyl (as fitted to the Airlinks) just above the destination display.

I saw 421 earlier which has now also been repainted (didn’t see if it had the Contactless vinyls as had already gone past). Interesting to hear 422 is now also done. I would imagine 552-570 will be looking the most likely to be done next (Can’t see Poppy Bus 551 getting a repaint but you never know).

Also saw 406 fitted with a Hanover yesterday, I wonder if we might see more rolled out across the original batch of Gemini3’s as well as the first batch of B5LH’s. I’m sure most if not all of the 11 plate Gemini2’s now have Hanovers fitted too.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I saw 421 earlier which has now also been repainted (didn’t see if it had the Contactless vinyls as had already gone past). Interesting to hear 422 is now also done. I would imagine 552-570 will be looking the most likely to be done next (Can’t see Poppy Bus 551 getting a repaint but you never know).

Also saw 406 fitted with a Hanover yesterday, I wonder if we might see more rolled out across the original batch of Gemini3’s as well as the first batch of B5LH’s. I’m sure most if not all of the 11 plate Gemini2’s now have Hanovers fitted too.

I did hear earlier on in the year (@OmniCity999 might be able to confirm) that Hanover would be providing next stop announcements across the fleet - not sure if that would involve changing the destination units too but imagine that would be the more simple solution than having Mobitec blinds and a separate Hanover system that would have both have to be set by the driver.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Also saw 406 fitted with a Hanover yesterday, I wonder if we might see more rolled out across the original batch of Gemini3’s as well as the first batch of B5LH’s. I’m sure most if not all of the 11 plate Gemini2’s now have Hanovers fitted too.

That is fantastic - I am glad that (hopefully) the awful Mobitec Destinations are going to all be replaced by the Hanover ones.

 

[OmniCity999]

I did hear earlier on in the year (@OmniCity999 might be able to confirm) that Hanover would be providing next stop announcements across the fleet - not sure if that would involve changing the destination units too but imagine that would be the more simple solution than having Mobitec blinds and a separate Hanover system that would have both have to be set by the driver.

i'm not 100% sure but i think the PIS systems (and dest. screens) on recent deliveries, ranging from 2016 onwards are in fact Hanover.

Anything before 2016 (176-190, 401-437, 551-570, 20937-20950*) is Mobitec (McKenna Brothers), as they produced the previously fitted roller blinds, then early LED screens. When these early batches initially had their dest. screens updated, they gained either Mobitec screens or Hanover units, but the Mobitec PIS was left installed. *currently disconnected

The issue is arising that having two separate ecosystems of PIS/Screens is causing operational issues.

The idea is that if every new generation bus has a Hanover screen & PIS installed - they can be updated by control, using the on-board data connection. Older generation buses with just Hannover dest. screens, can also be updated if need be by control.

This also covers issues when updating what content the screens can show. If every bus is fitted with Hanover equipment, it means every single vehicle can receive screen updates whilst out of service.

Essentially, going from two pieces of software to one. Removing issues with formatting the screens too, sometimes something will show up brilliantly on the Hanover units, but will look awful on the Mobitec units.

Both softwares use different protocols and fonts etc.

It's also less training for staff, not just drivers, but the people who need to update them!

I'm not sure if changes are being done in batches or just as and when equipment starts to fail.

It also means that when we move to a newer AVL system, everything can be managed from one piece of software! When this happens, ill do not know.

I guess 551-570 will be the next batch of buses to go for repaint/retrim etc as I think 401-425 is almost done? I think it was 422 I saw out the other day freshly repainted, and it had the "Contactless Payments Accepted" vinyl (as fitted to the Airlinks) just above the destination display.

The repaint order is confusing and i dont really know how its being worked out. There are still 11 plate B9's that havent had any modernisation since delivery, no new seat covers, flooring, paint or screens. While 64 plates are being repainted, so we'll need to see... One would assume it would make more sense to repaint the oldest first before starting the newer ones, but that doesnt seem to be the case.

The eVoRa's have them aswell

I did hear earlier on in the year (@OmniCity999 might be able to confirm) that Hanover would be providing next stop announcements across the fleet - not sure if that would involve changing the destination units too but imagine that would be the more simple solution than having Mobitec blinds and a separate Hanover system that would have both have to be set by the driver.

I'm led to believe the contactless logo is going to be part the new branding specs.

 

[Tartan shorts]

Out of interest how do you set the screens when you take a route. I take it the screens are all numbered and the running board tells you the code(s) to enter to get the right screens showing?

Gone are the days when the 12/2 used to change number at Hay Drive and occasionally the driver would let very young me turn the handle to change the rear number.

 

[OmniCity999]

Out of interest how do you set the screens when you take a route. I take it the screens are all numbered and the running board tells you the code(s) to enter to get the right screens showing?

Gone are the days when the 12/2 used to change number at Hay Drive and occasionally the driver would let very young me turn the handle to change the rear number.

Yeah, its just a controller in the driver cab. This has been the case with Lothian since the late 90's with Roller blinds.