Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[stevenedin]

That extra still runs, occasionally see a decker on it but it returns to the garage after. Here's a pic of 925 on it back last year a few days before it was withdrawn.

View attachment 115082

I miss this style. The roller blinds and livery look great.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

First used Scania Omnidekkas on the X6 and 106 routes to Dunbar. I think that they were lower in height.

I remember seeing the odd double decker on the 38.

I thought it was Omnidekkas, although are they not taller than the bridge?

That extra still runs, occasionally see a decker on it but it returns to the garage after.

Good to see the working still exists. Shame it’s not a double deck all the time though.

 

[Darklord8899]

Back in the mists of time, when I was at High school (mid- to late 1980's) there was a school days only 38 run with a double decker, Saughtonhall to Crewe Toll in the morning, Crewe Toll to Saughtonhall in the afternoon

 

[Siemens Trains]

Back in the mists of time, when I was at High school (mid- to late 1980's) there was a school days only 38 run with a double decker, Saughtonhall to Crewe Toll in the morning, Crewe Toll to Saughtonhall in the afternoon

Well remembered. I see it was timed to run 60 seconds behind the full route single deck variant, which doesn't make a lot of sense.
Interestingly Eastern Scottish ran a 'school daze' 38 from Prestonfield to Gray's Loan (which may have been double decked if desired) but this wasn't continued when LRT took over the service. From what I recall it could be quite busy with pupils for George Watson's College but maybe they came to some other arrangement. Here's a photo of the late 1980s timetables for the 38 & C38:

 

[scosutsut]

For the 38 the bridge at Balgreen and the X7 I think a bridge at East Linton.

What height are Lothian's deckers? Both bridges are 4.2m

Additionally on the X7 there is the (signed as) 4.1m tall bridge on Spott Road in Dunbar to contend with.

My understanding of the route, not using it as far as either of those destinations was that pre-pandemic the peak journeys could challenge capacity of the B8RLEs by the load generated throughout Haddington, and this was resolved by running additional Haddington shorts to increase capacity where needed.

Had COVID not come along I would be making suggestions but as far as I've seen even with the reduced timetable things are working as it is with the B8RLEs which are absolutely in their element on the route.

 

[Darklord8899]

Well remembered. I see it was timed to run 60 seconds behind the full route single deck variant, which doesn't make a lot of sense.
Interestingly Eastern Scottish ran a 'school daze' 38 from Prestonfield to Gray's Loan (which may have been double decked if desired) but this wasn't continued when LRT took over the service. From what I recall it could be quite busy with pupils for George Watson's College but maybe they came to some other arrangement. Here's a photo of the late 1980s timetables for the 38 & C38:

Thanks!
I know the school journey was handy for Broughton High start time, but was never sure why run it so close to the regular service, other than the extra capacity.
Also interesting to note that the C38 regular service went to Granton, not the School day service, as Lothian did.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Thanks!
I know the school journey was handy for Broughton High start time, but was never sure why run it so close to the regular service, other than the extra capacity.
Also interesting to note that the C38 regular service went to Granton, not the School day service, as Lothian did.

I suspect this could be a misprint on the C38 table because a vehicle would need to run the 0816 from Crewe Toll back to Prestonfield Avenue (via Balgreen bridge) every day.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I have been thinking that as soon as the new access from the A1 into Queen Margaret University is complete, the 30 would be diverted and the 400 extended via the A1 and the University. Would allow the 30 to switch to deckers, wouldn't it?

Thats what I thought. I do think the 30 WILL stay single deckers so a city route serves Newcraighall though.

926-936 were fantastic buses when they first moved across with the 43 from Central to LC but sadly they are starting to really show their age now and are becoming more and more unreliable. I personally think 571-8 should form the majority of the 43 allocation they’re far more suited to that route being limited to 42mph where they’re on slower roads the majority of the time as opposed to the quicker speeds required on sections of the X18/X27/X28. Also the 43 is by far the busiest Country route, surely it makes sense to put your newest vehicles on your most profitable route?

One of the Ex-Airlink buses is already rusting, Not in an expected place but over a few off-side panels. I'm not sure if this is the correct timing for rust or if it's alarming, I'm just pointing it out.

 

[Darklord8899]

I suspect this could be a misprint on the C38 table because a vehicle would need to run the 0816 from Crewe Toll back to Prestonfield Avenue (via Balgreen bridge) every day.

Good point, I missed that!
Also can you remember what the Lothian Decker did before/after that school journey?

I seem to think in the afternoon, it turned at the bottom of Saughtonhall Avenue, ran back up Balgreen Road to Corstorphine Road, than ran into town as a part route something (or possibly ran off service then picked up a service somewhere else.... it is bugging me that I can't remember after 30 odd years lol)

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Thats what I thought. I do think the 30 WILL stay single deckers so a city route serves Newcraighall though.

The 30 will likely do what was suggested, running directly from Fort Kinnaird to QMU via A1 with double decks. It’s badly needed and has been needed for the best part of 10-15 years. The route is most of the time overcrowded, late and is generally unreliable. Double decks really would help with this.

Newcraighall has a rail service so for me a daytime link to the city centre should be less of a priority compared to getting the double decks on the 30. Rail fares, schedule and reliability of course need to improve. I wouldn’t change the N30 though as of course trains don’t run at night. An extension of the 106 to the city centre may be a good option as well, frequency would need to be increased to half hourly for this to work. This would allow a link to the city centre to be maintained.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

The 30 will likely do what was suggested, running directly from Fort Kinnaird to QMU via A1 with double decks. It’s badly needed and has been needed for the best part of 10-15 years. The route is most of the time overcrowded, late and is generally unreliable. Double decks really would help with this.

Newcraighall has a rail service so for me a daytime link to the city centre should be less of a priority compared to getting the double decks on the 30. Rail fares, schedule and reliability of course need to improve. I wouldn’t change the N30 though as of course trains don’t run at night. An extension of the 106 to the city centre may be a good option as well, frequency would need to be increased to half hourly for this to work. This would allow a link to the city centre to be maintained.

I think if it were to do that, It'd have to serve Newcraighall Station, I get the point about an unreliable service though. Do you think that the 400 would follow suit?

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Good point, I missed that!
Also can you remember what the Lothian Decker did before/after that school journey?

I seem to think in the afternoon, it turned at the bottom of Saughtonhall Avenue, ran back up Balgreen Road to Corstorphine Road, than ran into town as a part route something (or possibly ran off service then picked up a service somewhere else.... it is bugging me that I can't remember after 30 odd years lol)

Longstone operated the 31 in those days so perhaps it went onto that route after finishing on the 38?

 

[computerSaysNo]

The 30 will likely do what was suggested, running directly from Fort Kinnaird to QMU via A1 with double decks. It’s badly needed and has been needed for the best part of 10-15 years. The route is most of the time overcrowded, late and is generally unreliable. Double decks really would help with this.

Would Lothian still have spent money on a new fleet of high-capacity high-spec single deck vehicles if they were planning on switching the route they were bought for to double deck operation in the near future?

 

[stevenedin]

Would Lothian still have spent money on a new fleet of high-capacity high-spec single deck vehicles if they were planning on switching the route they were bought for to double deck operation in the near future?

The buses weren’t specifically for that route. They can be used on any route.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I think if it were to do that, It'd have to serve Newcraighall Station, I get the point about an unreliable service though. Do you think that the 400 would follow suit?

The 400 is a route that's at its peak. It's been developed greatly over the last 6 years and it doesn’t need nor warrant anymore changes, least of all serving Newcraighall Station.

The buses weren’t specifically for that route. They can be used on any route.

Yes they were.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The buses weren’t specifically for that route. They can be used on any route.

What other routes are you suggesting could be converted to single deck operation in lieu of the 30 being converted to fully double deck operation? There'd be around 20 single decks needing displaced elsewhere.

 

[CraigLockhart]

What other routes are you suggesting could be converted to single deck operation in lieu of the 30 being converted to fully double deck operation? There'd be around 20 single decks needing displaced elsewhere.

I guess the new 22 route could revert to singles. The 300 perhaps.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I guess the new 22 route could revert to singles. The 300 perhaps.

The 22 is being reduced in frequency from June as well remember, so reducing capacity and frequency could lead to overcrowding issues on the section of route which is being retained. The 300 is branded as Skylink, although I was of the impression (and I may be wrong) that it's hanging on by a thread in its current form

 

[stevenedin]

What other routes are you suggesting could be converted to single deck operation in lieu of the 30 being converted to fully double deck operation? There'd be around 20 single decks needing displaced elsewhere.

The 1 and 2 could go fully single decker again. They could replace some of the 7900s and they could move to replace some of the existing B7RLEs or be sold.

 

[Bus9120UK]

The 1 and 2 could go fully single decker again. They could replace some of the 7900s and they could move to replace some of the existing B7RLEs or be sold.

Can't even stand the chance of the 1 & 2 becoming full time single decks again. Way too busy these days.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Can't even stand the chance of the 1 & 2 becoming full time single decks again. Way too busy these days.

You can get Electric Doubles..

 

[stevenedin]

The other option would be to move them or the 7900s to EastCoastbuses or Lothiancountry

 

[computerSaysNo]

The other option would be to move them or the 7900s to EastCoastbuses or Lothiancountry

Edit: Regarding the newer B8RLEs:
Actually you're right, I hadn't considered that.
They would be ideal for both "arms" due to the longer average journey times and their premium interior.
They would be perfect for the X5 on East Coast, and they would be great for upgrading the West Lothian routes to newer and more comfortable vehicles with stop announcements.

Edit 2:
Regarding the 7900s, I think they would be ideal for the 39/139, but I'm struggling to see where else they could go.
I suppose the 106 might work with them?

 

[ScotRail158725]

What is with people persisting with the idea of the 7900s moving to LC or ECB. Its been dismissed multiple times as something that won’t happen

The other option would be to move them or the 7900s to EastCoastbuses or Lothiancountry

If you were to move the Evoras they’d be ideal to replace the B7RLEs at LCB/ECB

 

[Siemens Trains]

Good point, I missed that!
Also can you remember what the Lothian Decker did before/after that school journey?

I seem to think in the afternoon, it turned at the bottom of Saughtonhall Avenue, ran back up Balgreen Road to Corstorphine Road, than ran into town as a part route something (or possibly ran off service then picked up a service somewhere else.... it is bugging me that I can't remember after 30 odd years lol)

Unfortunately I have no idea as in those days I didn't use the 38 north of Gorgie Road. To me Crewe Toll was just a mysterious name on a destination blind, holding the promise of some exotic far-off paradise.
Around that time lots of odd journeys seemed to operate so the part route 38s could have turned into almost anything (or just run light back to a depot).

 

[computerSaysNo]

I can't see a link for the N30 on the Service Change news page (https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2022/04/service-change-5-june-2022/), but the timetable PDF is accessible by loading the PDF of any other timetable from that page and then directly modifying the service number in the URL. Is this an omission by error or is the N30 timetable not supposed to be accessible yet?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

You can get Electric Doubles..

Lothian don't have the facilities for a full electric fleet or even a full batch of electric vehicles. They would have to buy lots of chargers to go with it and I don't see them ordering more than 6 in their next electric batch, which'd be presumably Enviro400 EV's.

I can't see a link for the N30 on the Service Change news page (https://www.lothianbuses.com/news/2022/04/service-change-5-june-2022/), but the timetable PDF is accessible by loading the PDF of any other timetable from that page and then directly modifying the service number in the URL. Is this an omission by error or is the N30 timetable not supposed to be accessible yet?

The only services shown on the NightBus and NightHawk ones are the routes that are changing or having a timetable change. I don't think there are changes on the N30.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Lothian don't have the facilities for a full electric fleet or even a full batch of electric vehicles.

I fail to see what difference that makes? That has applied to all bus operators prior to them buying large batches of electric buses.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

So for service changes if it’s not listed, there’s no changes.

Regarding the 30 again, I know some have mentioned about what would happen with the Evora’s. These could quite easily be used elsewhere, on the likes of the 36, 38 which they are on quite a lot anyway. Possibly the 42 as well. Basically if what was suggested about more routes (such as the 1 and 2) becoming double decks then the Evora’s are all the single decks you’d need at Lothian. ECB and LC would retain their Eclipse2’s for now but in the long term (say 3-4 years) I’d expect some new single decks for them as well, including possibly a few of the smaller Evora’s for the 139 which would make going round Woodburn a little bit easier. Remember the Eclipse3’s were ordered for the 124 and X7, they lasted a year on the 124 before the Gemini3’s came along and it was converted to double decks, it can happen.

Making the 30 double decks would possibly allow Lothian to get rid of most (if not all) of the 7900’s, is that a good thing? I’d say so. I’d find it unlikely that the 30 would maintain a 10 minute service if it was converted to double decks - to me every 15 minutes (with more in the peak) seems more probable.

 

[freddiem]

I am all for making changes to convert the 30 to Double-Deck operation, however the notion that the conversion would allow for a less frequent service seems a little misguided, as the current Evoras have a total capacity of 95 passengers!, and the latest Enviro400 batch have a total capacity of 91 (or possibly 97 not clear online), so reducing the 30 to every 15 minutes would mean a significant drop in route capacity, that probably wouldn't be sustainable given the huge numbers using the route