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Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

LiviCrazy

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How have the changes to the X27/X28 gone? I don’t really travel by them as it works out better for me to use the X22 (due to ticketing options). But, I seem to see them travelling in twos a lot (and from what I can see on BusTimes, quite often running up to 30mins late). Also, completely my own observations, but they seem a lot quieter than they were pre-changes. Do they need longer timetables, it always seems to me when I travel by them that the drivers have to take the routes very fast in order to stay on time.

As I say, that’s just an outsiders point of view, so curious to what observations have been like from regular passengers/drivers.
 
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FlybeDash8Q400

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How have the changes to the X27/X28 gone? I don’t really travel by them as it works out better for me to use the X22. But, I seem to see them travelling in twos a lot (and from what I can see on BusTimes, quite often running up to 30mins late while the X22 is remaining just a couple of mins late). Also, completely my own observations, but they seem a lot quieter than they were pre-changes.

As I say, that’s just an outsiders point of view, so curious to what observations have been like from regular passengers/drivers.
I’d say loadings from the Edinburgh city centre look pretty similar to what it was before. The slightly confusing frequency won’t be doing it any favours though.

Whenever I was at college (back when it was every 15 minutes) it was normally the X28 that was late. Put it this way 9 times out of 10 you’d expect the two to show up at the same time. The X28 was normally being hammered by the level crossing at Kirknewton from my experience. This was normally because of a delayed Avanti West Coast service, that still is usually delayed now as the timings for it are broadly the same. If a train is late or an extra train is running then this will delay the traffic by usually around 5 to 6 minutes. It would then get stuck trying to get through Kirknewton Main Street due to how tight it can be. Loss of timings then resulted in the X27 passengers getting on the delayed X28 and by the time they got to Calder Road, they were beside each other. The signaller is there to make sure the trains move safely. It’s not their duty to make sure the road traffic runs to time, but they do have a responsibility of safety for the crossing. This obviously will come at a disadvantage to any bus operator that uses this stretch of road. The X28 really should be having more dwell time added in if this is as common as it’s sounding like it is.

The fact this appears like it can still happen now tells you that Kirknewton is logistically difficult to serve. Network Rail do want rid of as many level crossings as possible but in many cases there is no alternative, and I‘d say that’s the case here.
 

LiviCrazy

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I’d say loadings from the Edinburgh city centre look pretty similar to what it was before. The slightly confusing frequency won’t be doing it any favours though.

Whenever I was at college (back when it was every 15 minutes) it was normally the X28 that was late. Put it this way 9 times out of 10 you’d expect the two to show up at the same time. The X28 was normally being hammered by the level crossing at Kirknewton from my experience. This was normally because of a delayed Avanti West Coast service, that still is usually delayed now as the timings for it are broadly the same. If a train is late or an extra train is running then this will delay the traffic by usually around 5 to 6 minutes. It would then get stuck trying to get through Kirknewton Main Street due to how tight it can be. Loss of timings then resulted in the X27 passengers getting on the delayed X28 and by the time they got to Calder Road, they were beside each other. The signaller is there to make sure the trains move safely. It’s not their duty to make sure the road traffic runs to time, but they do have a responsibility of safety for the crossing. This obviously will come at a disadvantage to any bus operator that uses this stretch of road. The X28 really should be having more dwell time added in if this is as common as it’s sounding like it is.

The fact this appears like it can still happen now tells you that Kirknewton is logistically difficult to serve. Network Rail do want rid of as many level crossings as possible but in many cases there is no alternative, and I‘d say that’s the case here.
Still seems to do well on city passengers, but out in Livingston seems quieter (ie the X27 I saw going round Dedridge at 07:20 yesterday to Edinburgh had about 6 passengers on, a couple of months ago the 07:10 was usually more than half full).

Again from observation of BusTimes rather than travelling, it looks like it gets snarled up at West End/West Approach Road rather than Haymarket/Dalry, I don’t know how much faster that route is tbh as X22 regularly beats them between Sighthill and Princes Street at peak times but I appreciate that LCB pick up more city passengers.
 

stevenedin

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Still seems to do well on city passengers, but out in Livingston seems quieter (ie the X27 I saw going round Dedridge at 07:20 yesterday to Edinburgh had about 6 passengers on, a couple of months ago the 07:10 was usually more than half full).

Again from observation of BusTimes rather than travelling, it looks like it gets snarled up at West End/West Approach Road rather than Haymarket/Dalry, I don’t know how much faster that route is tbh as X22 regularly beats them between Sighthill and Princes Street at peak times but I appreciate that LCB pick up more city passengers.
I think that there are temporary traffic lights at West Approach Road just now causing delays.

I noticed a lot of people using the X27 and X28 between Edinburgh City Centre and Sighthill. It may have been a one off but I boarded a very busy bus one time and all seats downstairs at least were full then after it left Sighthill there was lots of empty seats.

I think that there is a demand for an express service between the city centre and Sighthill and it helps keep passenger numbers up but if they ever do pull out. I reckon an hourly X25 from Waterloo Place to Heriot-Watt University would do well 7 days a week.
 

CN04NRJ

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I think that there is a demand for an express service between the city centre and Sighthill and it helps keep passenger numbers up but if they ever do pull out. I reckon an hourly X25 from Waterloo Place to Heriot-Watt University would do well 7 days a week.

Absolutely this. Non stop between Longstone Crescent roundabout and West End perhaps?

I drive into Central down Calder Road and the bus stops are always packed during daytime while the universities and colleges are in.
 

VioletEclipse

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I know anecdotally that at least a few people in West Lothian have semi-recently given up on the X27/X28 and instead drive into town most days. The service really could be substantially better.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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The repaint situation currently looks like this. This is a memo I have on my phone that I use to take note of what’s happening. I may do a post like this more often if people find it useful:

As of 14:15 24/01/2023

FOTF - Fleet of the Future

176 - At Seafield for repaint prep
177 - At Seafield for repaint prep
178 - At Seafield for repaint prep
179 - Away for repaint (Ferrymill)
180 - At Seafield for repaint prep
181 - At Seafield for repaint prep
182 - At Longstone (likely for MOT)*
183 - At Seafield for repaint prep
184 - At Seafield for repaint prep
185 - At Seafield for repaint prep
186 - At Longstone (likely for MOT)*
187 - At Seafield for repaint prep
188 - At Seafield for repaint prep
189 - At Seafield for repaint prep
190 - Returned from repaint, At Seafield

*182 and 186 are untouched so far and remain in their current liveries, and are still fully branded up. 176-190 are all expected to go into Lothian FOTF livery. 186-190 are also being re-trimmed into the new moquette during the prep stages but it looks like they will retain their original seating.

565 - Away for repaint (Ferrymill)

This should be the 18th 15 plate B5LH to go into Lothian FOTF livery.

1004 - Away for repair (Ferrymill)
1032 - At Seafield for repaint prep
1033 - Away for repaint (Ferrymill)
1034 - Away for repaint (BusTec)
1040 - Away for repaint (Ferrymill)
1044 - Returned from repaint, At Seafield

1004 is on repair after a collision last month. It is not known if this will be repainted at the same time. Given 1028’s transfer into reserve it does raise questions. 1004 could well find itself the recipient of an unplanned repaint into Lothian FOTF. It would seem odd to repair it and keep it in green and cream, given the fact they are in the middle of phasing this livery out. Time will tell what happens.

All others from the Lothian Country fleet that are listed should be going into Lothian Country green and white.

1071 - Away for part repaint (Ferrymill)

This one appears to be getting a bottom half respray as per the link above.
 
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stevenedin

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The repaint situation currently looks like this. This is a memo I have on my phone that I use to take note of what’s happening. I may do a post like this more often if people find it useful:

As of 14:15 24/01/2023

176 - At Seafield for repaint prep
177 - At Seafield for repaint prep
178 - At Seafield for repaint prep
179 - Away for repaint (Ferrymill)
180 - At Seafield for repaint prep
181 - At Seafield for repaint prep
182 - At Longstone (likely for MOT)*
183 - At Seafield for repaint prep
184 - At Seafield for repaint prep
185 - At Seafield for repaint prep
186 - At Longstone (likely for MOT)*
187 - At Seafield for repaint prep
188 - At Seafield for repaint prep
189 - At Seafield for repaint prep
190 - Returned from repaint, At Seafield

*182 and 186 are untouched so far and remain in their current liveries, and are still fully branded up. 176-190 are all expected to go into Lothian FOTF livery. 186-190 are also being re-trimmed into the new moquette during the prep stages but it looks like they will retain their original seating.

565 - Away for repaint (Ferrymill)

This should be the 18th 15 plate B5LH to go into Lothian FOTF livery.

1004 - Away for repair (Ferrymill)
1032 - At Seafield for repaint prep
1033 - Away for repaint (Ferrymill)
1034 - Away for repaint (BusTec)
1040 - Away for repaint (Ferrymill)
1044 - Returned from repaint, At Seafield

1004 is on repair after a collision last month. It is not known if this will be repainted at the same time. Given 1028’s transfer into reserve it does raise questions. 1004 could well find itself the recipient of an unplanned repaint into Lothian FOTF. It would seem odd to repair it and keep it in green and cream, given the fact they are in the middle of phasing this livery out. Time will tell what happens.

All others from the Lothian Country fleet that are listed should be going into Lothian Country green and white.

1071 - Away for part repaint (Ferrymill)

This one appears to be getting a bottom half respray as per the link above.

FOTF - fleet of the future
Thanks for the update. If you have time to do these updates and are happy to do them, I would find them very useful. If not I understand.

Also on 1004 and 1028, it would make sense for these to move to EastCoastbuses (in my opinion) to replace a few older 57 reg B9TLs.
 

Bus9120UK

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Also on 1004 and 1028, it would make sense for these to move to EastCoastbuses (in my opinion) to replace a few older 57 reg B9TLs.
My thoughts are they may consider moving these to EastCoastbuses on a temporary basis once the LC paints are done to kickstart the Lothian ones again. I suppose they could move four (1003 & 1013 as well) if they needed too. I would take 935/6 off soon despite 936's recent paintjob, which felt unnecessary when there were always buses from the 937-950 still available for painting first.
 

eh1

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Edinburgh
My thoughts are they may consider moving these to EastCoastbuses on a temporary basis once the LC paints are done to kickstart the Lothian ones again. I suppose they could move four (1003 & 1013 as well) if they needed too. I would take 935/6 off soon despite 936's recent paintjob, which felt unnecessary when there were always buses from the 937-950 still available for painting first.
Which members of the main fleet need painting though? The 400s are getting on, but I'd be surprised if these got a paint this year. The B7s seem to be the only ones.
 

Bus9120UK

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Which members of the main fleet need painting though? The 400s are getting on, but I'd be surprised if these got a paint this year. The B7s seem to be the only ones.
That was a typo - I meant EastCoast. To answer the question though, 441-465 really need it.
 

eh1

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Edinburgh
That was a typo - I meant EastCoast. To answer the question though, 441-465 really need it.
Aha right makes sense. Hopefully see the B5s in it soon, I wasn't sure on that livery but it's really growing on me, the B5LHs at LCB look great in it!
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Which members of the main fleet need painting though? The 400s are getting on, but I'd be surprised if these got a paint this year. The B7s seem to be the only ones.
That was a typo - I meant EastCoast. To answer the question though, 441-465 really need it.
Lothian wise, 441-465 you’d like to think will be next after the completion of 551-570. 569 will be next I think, only as I’m not sure if 562 will be getting painted just now.

Once Lothian Country is done hopefully ECB can be finished off. Hopefully they’re completed sometime in the spring, with ECB completed perhaps towards the end of the summer/autumn time?
 

Bus9120UK

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I can't seem to find any mention of this in here, so must've been missed out - but 28 was repainted fully following an accident around 1 month and a half ago, it's in the newer "revised" 2020 style of the livery now. One to keep an eye out for.
 
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I can't seem to find any mention of this in here, so must've been missed out - but 28 was repainted fully following an accident around 1 month and a half ago, it's in the newer "revised" 2020 style of the livery now. One to keep an eye out for.
It certainly looks nice, a new bus added to the 2020 Revised Fleet of the Future livery!
 

VioletEclipse

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I know it has probably been covered before, but is there actually a difference between the 2016 livery and the 2020 livery other than the lack of the gold 'hook' thing on the sides and the black paint between rear windows rather than white paint on deckers?
 
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I know it has probably been covered before, but is there actually a difference between the 2016 livery and the 2020 livery other than the lack of the gold 'hook' thing on the sides and the black paint between rear windows rather than white paint on deckers?
The gold lines are now thinner than they were before (Except on Gemini 3 "Stealth" bodies.)

The positioning on side logos has also went down a tad.
 

Bus9120UK

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I know it has probably been covered before, but is there actually a difference between the 2016 livery and the 2020 livery other than the lack of the gold 'hook' thing on the sides and the black paint between rear windows rather than white paint on deckers?
Change in rear cyclist vinyl, matches the same as what XLBs received when new. Return of nearside fleet number, thinner stripes as mentioned (late 2020, first appeared on eVoRa's).
The gold lines are now thinner than they were before (Except on Gemini 3 "Stealth" bodies.)

The positioning on side logos has also went down a tad.
The lower logos first appeared before the 2020 version was fully launched.

Images below showing difference in gold stripe thickness.
1674654086297.png1674654096704.png
 

VioletEclipse

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Change in rear cyclist vinyl, matches the same as what XLBs received when new. Return of nearside fleet number, thinner stripes as mentioned (late 2020, first appeared on eVoRa's).

The lower logos first appeared before the 2020 version was fully launched.

Images below showing difference in gold stripe thickness.
View attachment 127698View attachment 127699
thank you both so much! I honestly hadn't noticed most of those differences despite quite literally seeing both versions multiple times a day on average.
 
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Change in rear cyclist vinyl, matches the same as what XLBs received when new. Return of nearside fleet number, thinner stripes as mentioned (late 2020, first appeared on eVoRa's).

The lower logos first appeared before the 2020 version was fully launched.
Thanks for mentioning the cyclist vinyl, I completely forgot about that.

In which year was the lower logo vinyl position eased into the liveries? I thought they were brought in with the change or at least in the same year.
 

Bus9120UK

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Thanks for mentioning the cyclist vinyl, I completely forgot about that.

In which year was the lower logo vinyl position eased into the liveries? I thought they were brought in with the change or at least in the same year.
It first appeared once in 2018 on 412, probably by error. The lower logos were first applied around late 2019 when, now again repainted 579-590, were moved to Lothian.

For information in regards to the variations of the 2020 livery please read below. Most people won't really notice these minor differences or be interested.

In terms of application on Lothian Volvo B9s (ECB not included):
  • The original 2020 revised (on 365) lacked volvo badges, the nearside fleet number was on the paint & the cyclist sticker remained unchanged.
  • Volvo badges returned not long after on 371 with the updated rear cyclist sticker being on that one too. Nearside number still on the paint. 371 had a fleet number placed in the centre right of the destination display. No other B9s gained this style after except 382/3 in 2022.
  • No revisions after 371 until 358 in February 2022
  • 358 appeared in February 2022 looking completely different. Volvo badges all applied, black rear implemented, new cyclist vinyl, thinner gold stripes, and nearside number on the black window. Nearing the end of the application of vinyls on the 2022 B9 repaints a no smoking sticker was also implemented onto the door. A "Low Emission Zone" vinyl also appeared across the fleet not long after.
In terms of application on Volvo B5s:
  • 420 & 417 returned from paint similar to how 365 was, without any volvo badges and the older rear cyclist sticker. The front fleet number always varied on this batch, generally in the bottom right corner, or somewhere to the bottom right of the destination display. Nearside number on paint.
  • 421 returned from paint not long after, however it had gained a front contactless vinyl (which also appeared on 1126-1130 at that time, probably a trial of some sort). It also gained one on the cab door. The front fleet number placement was centered to the right of the destination display, volvo badges were back and again like 371 the newer cyclist rear sticker. Nearside number on paint.
  • 431-437 were painted in October 2021, after operating for over a year in Skylink colours on city routes. The gold stripes remained thick, but they gained the newer cyclist vinyls on the rear and nearside fleet numbers on the window. Almost identical application followed on 551-570 & 496/7 when they were repainted across late 2021 & 2022. 567 unintentionally gained, and still has, a volvo B5TL vinyl by error (it's a B5LH). All of the buses that were painted in 2022 (bar 552) received the no smoking stickers.
  • 422-424 lost their Kraken liveries in early 2022 and were repainted. A few months later, 425 followed. They appeared in very similar style to 431-437 - however the fleet number placement was now the same as the placement on the B9s, directly to the right of the bottom of the destination box. It is worth noting 422-424 had mobitecs when they were painted, but upon change to hanover 422/3 annoyingly both lost their nearside fleet numbers. 424 kept it's one. No smoking stickers appeared on 422-425. The B5s remain to be the only buses which receive the original thicker gold stripe application. Every other bus in the fleet no longer does.

The first single decks with the newer rear cyclist vinyl & nearside fleet numbers on the window were the eVoRa's. This generally didn't spread onto the singles, apart from buses 28, 181 (green and white) and now also 176-190 at this very moment.

Various Longstone buses have gained nearside numbers now, as well. 403 lost it's lower gold stripes in December 2021, and gained updated rear volvo badges, but kept it's older cyclist sticker.

I must mention, most buses that received the 100 years logos in 2019 still have them. Will there be any effort to remove these, four years on? I have never particularly liked the appearance with them on either.
 

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