Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

1046 will be the next one from Lothian Country to be repainted. It has arrived at Marine and will move to Seafield in the morning. 1044, now completed, has returned to Livingston and will hopefully be back out soon, possibly tomorrow.

This leaves just 1003, 1013, 1030, 1031 and 1038 left in service in green and cream with Lothian Country now. Not long to go now before it’s all done you’d have to think.

 

[VioletEclipse]

It first appeared once in 2018 on 412, probably by error. The lower logos were first applied around late 2019 when, now again repainted 579-590, were moved to Lothian.

For information in regards to the variations of the 2020 livery please read below. Most people won't really notice these minor differences or be interested.

In terms of application on Lothian Volvo B9s (ECB not included):

• The original 2020 revised (on 365) lacked volvo badges, the nearside fleet number was on the paint & the cyclist sticker remained unchanged.
• Volvo badges returned not long after on 371 with the updated rear cyclist sticker being on that one too. Nearside number still on the paint. 371 had a fleet number placed in the centre right of the destination display. No other B9s gained this style after except 382/3 in 2022.
• No revisions after 371 until 358 in February 2022
• 358 appeared in February 2022 looking completely different. Volvo badges all applied, black rear implemented, new cyclist vinyl, thinner gold stripes, and nearside number on the black window. Nearing the end of the application of vinyls on the 2022 B9 repaints a no smoking sticker was also implemented onto the door. A "Low Emission Zone" vinyl also appeared across the fleet not long after.

In terms of application on Volvo B5s:

• 420 & 417 returned from paint similar to how 365 was, without any volvo badges and the older rear cyclist sticker. The front fleet number always varied on this batch, generally in the bottom right corner, or somewhere to the bottom right of the destination display. Nearside number on paint.
• 421 returned from paint not long after, however it had gained a front contactless vinyl (which also appeared on 1126-1130 at that time, probably a trial of some sort). It also gained one on the cab door. The front fleet number placement was centered to the right of the destination display, volvo badges were back and again like 371 the newer cyclist rear sticker. Nearside number on paint.
• 431-437 were painted in October 2021, after operating for over a year in Skylink colours on city routes. The gold stripes remained thick, but they gained the newer cyclist vinyls on the rear and nearside fleet numbers on the window. Almost identical application followed on 551-570 & 496/7 when they were repainted across late 2021 & 2022. 567 unintentionally gained, and still has, a volvo B5TL vinyl by error (it's a B5LH). All of the buses that were painted in 2022 (bar 552) received the no smoking stickers.
• 422-424 lost their Kraken liveries in early 2022 and were repainted. A few months later, 425 followed. They appeared in very similar style to 431-437 - however the fleet number placement was now the same as the placement on the B9s, directly to the right of the bottom of the destination box. It is worth noting 422-424 had mobitecs when they were painted, but upon change to hanover 422/3 annoyingly both lost their nearside fleet numbers. 424 kept it's one. No smoking stickers appeared on 422-425. The B5s remain to be the only buses which receive the original thicker gold stripe application. Every other bus in the fleet no longer does.

The first single decks with the newer rear cyclist vinyl & nearside fleet numbers on the window were the eVoRa's. This generally didn't spread onto the singles, apart from buses 28, 181 (green and white) and now also 176-190 at this very moment.

Various Longstone buses have gained nearside numbers now, as well. 403 lost it's lower gold stripes in December 2021, and gained updated rear volvo badges, but kept it's older cyclist sticker.

I must mention, most buses that received the 100 years logos in 2019 still have them. Will there be any effort to remove these, four years on? I have never particularly liked the appearance with them on either.

That is amazing, a level of detail that I aspire to. You have definitely done your research! I had noticed differences in fleet number positioning on some buses and the appearance of the contactless vinyls on the Evoras, Airlink XLBs and a few other buses, but most of the other details I hadn't noticed until you mentioned them.

Although I'm partly wondering how long the current revised livery will last, as pretty much since 1999 Lothian have been rather inconsistent. With only a short period in 2009-2010, a few months in 2016 and from about October 2022 until now of all the buses in the fleet having the same general livery, which before then had been mostly consistent for 80 years.

 

[stevenedin]

That is amazing, a level of detail that I aspire to. You have definitely done your research! I had noticed differences in fleet number positioning on some buses and the appearance of the contactless vinyls on the Evoras, Airlink XLBs and a few other buses, but most of the other details I hadn't noticed until you mentioned them.

Although I'm partly wondering how long the current revised livery will last, as pretty much since 1999 Lothian have been rather inconsistent. With only a short period in 2009-2010, a few months in 2016 and from about October 2022 until now of all the buses in the fleet having the same general livery, which before then had been mostly consistent for 80 years.

I agree it’s very detailed and I feel like I must be walking around with my eyes closed

It would be nice to have a consistent fleet in the same livery. Hopefully once all of the repaints are completed at Lothiancountry and EastCoastbuses then the rest of the city fleet will start to get the updated refreshed livery.

 

[computerSaysNo]

A slightly related question; why do the Eclipse Urban 2s (and the Urban 1s when they were around) have the posh style of windows (smooth on the outside with the shelf on the inside) rather than the cheaper style (gasket?) (where each window appears in its own frame), when the policy at the time was for the cheaper style (as evidenced by nearly all deckers having the cheaper style)?
Thinking about it I can't think of any Urbans on the Volvo which don't have the posh windows, the only ones I can think of are on the VDL chassis.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Thinking about it I can't think of any Urbans on the Volvo which don't have the posh windows, the only ones I can think of are on the VDL chassis.

I believe (though I could be wrong) that National Express were the only ones to order gasket windowed Eclipse’s; that’s the first generation ones. There’s quite a few operators with Eclipse2’s that have gasket windows, many of which are dealer stock.

I’m surprised Lothian never went for Gasket windows on those Eclipse’s, but I do think the bonded windows are much nicer:

 

[computerSaysNo]

I believe (though I could be wrong) that National Express were the only ones to order gasket windowed Eclipse’s; that’s the first generation ones. There’s quite a few operators with Eclipse2’s that have gasket windows, many of which are dealer stock.

Hmm, interesting.

I’m surprised Lothian never went for Gasket windows on those Eclipse’s, but I do think the bonded windows are much nicer:

Yes I agree.
I'm not sure what ADL have done but the gasket option on the MMCs and Citys is nowhere near as bad as the "traditional" gasket option on ADL Classics and Wright-bodied vehicles, which is good.
The bonded option just helps vehicles look more modern and stylish, to my mind.

 

[gavin1985]

I think that there are temporary traffic lights at West Approach Road just now causing delays.

I noticed a lot of people using the X27 and X28 between Edinburgh City Centre and Sighthill. It may have been a one off but I boarded a very busy bus one time and all seats downstairs at least were full then after it left Sighthill there was lots of empty seats.

I think that there is a demand for an express service between the city centre and Sighthill and it helps keep passenger numbers up but if they ever do pull out. I reckon an hourly X25 from Waterloo Place to Heriot-Watt University would do well 7 days a week.

As I stay at the new builds next to the college on the rare times of me not getting the tram from Bankhead my only preferred option would indeed be the X27/X28 at Sighthill. So I would say I am spoiled for choice of getting into town and also the airport for that matter.
Slapping in another express/limited stop service such as the X25 would be very welcome!

 

[ChrisPJ]

Hmm, interesting.

Yes I agree.
I'm not sure what ADL have done but the gasket option on the MMCs and Citys is nowhere near as bad as the "traditional" gasket option on ADL Classics and Wright-bodied vehicles, which is good.
The bonded option just helps vehicles look more modern and stylish, to my mind.

Isn't it the case that bonded glazing contributes to structural robustness and in some designs is essential for that purpose?

Given that low floor bus designs probably have slimmer and flimsier chassis or underframes compared to higher floor models of 30 years ago.

 

[stevenedin]

As I stay at the new builds next to the college on the rare times of me not getting the tram from Bankhead my only preferred option would indeed be the X27/X28 at Sighthill. So I would say I am spoiled for choice of getting into town and also the airport for that matter.
Slapping in another express/limited stop service such as the X25 would be very welcome!

Before the pandemic there was the X25 weekdays at peak times as well as the X27, X28 and also both the X22 and X23 (First services).

I do think that there is still a demand for express services from the city centre to areas further out although most are covered by other operators.

The Jewel/ Duddingston area is covered by the X5, X6, X7 and 253.

Fort Kinnaird has the 253.

South Queensferry and Queensferry Road area is covered by the Fife express services and the 43.

Calder Road area is covered by the X22, X27 and X28.

South Gyle area is covered by the 22.

Newbridge, Ratho Station, Gogarburn annd Corstorphine area is covered by the X18, X24 and X25.

North Edinburgh isn’t too far by bus so the 8, 14, 19, 24, 29, 37, X37 and 47 have this area covered.

Leith/Newhaven area is covered by the 7, 11, 14, 16, 25, 34, 35 and 49.

Portobello area is covered by the X26 at peak times Monday to Friday only. At other times it only has the slower 26.

Milton Road area has the X44, 113 and 124.

Niddrie/Craigmillar doesn’t have an express service, only the 30 which could be made quicker, however people could walk from Magdalene near The Jewel but it is a long walk.

Royal Infirmary has the X33 peak time service but it doesn’t go into the hospital. The 33 is a quick route from the city centre though. There is also the 51 and X95 which serves the same road at other times.

Gilmerton has the X29 peak service.

Mortonhall/Liberton has the X31 and X37 peak time services and the X62.

Fairmilehead has the 15 and 101/102.

Oxgangs/Colinton Mains don’t really have an express service from the city centre.

Wester Hailes/Clovenstone has the 30.

Balerno/Currie and Juniper Green currently have no express service to the city centre.

There is room for improvement here for express services from the city centre to the outskirts of Edinburgh and potentially further out.

I think that even if one 29 bus per hour ran as an X29, one 37 ran as an X37 and so on it may make a big difference to people using the bus more. Those are just a few examples.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Before the pandemic there was the X25 weekdays at peak times as well as the X27, X28 and also both the X22 and X23 (First services).

I do think that there is still a demand for express services from the city centre to areas further out although most are covered by other operators.

The Jewel/ Duddingston area is covered by the X5, X6, X7 and 253.

Fort Kinnaird has the 253.

South Queensferry and Queensferry Road area is covered by the Fife express services and the 43.

Calder Road area is covered by the X22, X27 and X28.

South Gyle area is covered by the 22.

Newbridge, Ratho Station, Gogarburn annd Corstorphine area is covered by the X18, X24 and X25.

North Edinburgh isn’t too far by bus so the 8, 14, 19, 24, 29, 37, X37 and 47 have this area covered.

Leith/Newhaven area is covered by the 7, 11, 14, 16, 25, 34, 35 and 49.

Portobello area is covered by the X26 at peak times Monday to Friday only. At other times it only has the slower 26.

Milton Road area has the X44, 113 and 124.

Niddrie/Craigmillar doesn’t have an express service, only the 30 which could be made quicker, however people could walk from Magdalene near The Jewel but it is a long walk.

Royal Infirmary has the X33 peak time service but it doesn’t go into the hospital. The 33 is a quick route from the city centre though. There is also the 51 and X95 which serves the same road at other times.

Gilmerton has the X29 peak service.

Mortonhall/Liberton has the X31 and X37 peak time services and the X62.

Fairmilehead has the 15 and 101/102.

Oxgangs/Colinton Mains don’t really have an express service from the city centre.

Wester Hailes/Clovenstone has the 30.

Balerno/Currie and Juniper Green currently have no express service to the city centre.

There is room for improvement here for express services from the city centre to the outskirts of Edinburgh and potentially further out.

I think that even if one 29 bus per hour ran as an X29, one 37 ran as an X37 and so on it may make a big difference to people using the bus more. Those are just a few examples.

Okay, I'll give in. I've made a map showing all the limited-stop routes in Edinburgh, it has its own thread but I'll link it here (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/edinburgh-express-bus-map.242542/post-6041896). I've deliberately excluded the 253 as it technically doesn't run limited-stop.

 

[scosutsut]

Interestingly the much needed weekday peak X7 decker operated part routes to/from Haddington appear to have restarted although I see no official record or promotion of it that I can find.

No timetable change and when I tweeted ECB I got the refreshing reply of silence.

Saw 20001 Edinburgh bound this morning, roughly 0750 departure. Then I saw 847 this evening en route to Haddington, must have been near a 5pm departure I reckon?

According to bustimes those are the only two decker journeys that stand out today at least. Looks like it started this week as last week doesn't look like anything other than the usual Eclipse 3s allocated the week before.

Vehicles – X7 – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

Weird of the company not to promote it, at all? Especially as people were crying out for it? They'd been leaving people at the bus stop in the peaks and that unreliability was one of the factors that swung me over to the Borders Buses 253, as much as I loathe the E200 MMCs they use!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Interestingly the much needed weekday peak X7 decker operated part routes to/from Haddington appear to have restarted although I see no official record or promotion of it that I can find.

No timetable change and when I tweeted ECB I got the refreshing reply of silence.

Saw 20001 Edinburgh bound this morning, roughly 0750 departure. Then I saw 847 this evening en route to Haddington, must have been near a 5pm departure I reckon?

According to bustimes those are the only two decker journeys that stand out today at least. Looks like it started this week as last week doesn't look like anything other than the usual Eclipse 3s allocated the week before.

Vehicles – X7 – bustimes.org

bustimes.org

Weird of the company not to promote it, at all? Especially as people were crying out for it? They'd been leaving people at the bus stop in the peaks and that unreliability was one of the factors that swung me over to the Borders Buses 253, as much as I loathe the E200 MMCs they use!

I suspect these are duplicate journeys, so therefore would not need to be registered with the Traffic Commissioner. I’d say it’s likely at the next service change they’ll be added in properly as standalone journeys timed to be a few mins earlier than the regular Eclipse3 journey.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Volvo BZL demo vehicle BV72KPF is at Central.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Volvo BZL demo vehicle BV72KPF is at Central.

Would this be the double or single decker?

 

[CN04NRJ]

Would this be the double or single decker?

Single deck, I believe Lothian are the first company to have it.

I did hear rumours a few months ago that it was coming and likely to be the next order for Central - hopefully the second part is true as well.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Single deck, I believe Lothian are the first company to have it.

I did hear rumours a few months ago that it was coming and likely to be the next order for Central - hopefully the second part is true as well.

I’m glad to see Lothian finally try this. I think there’s real potential for it to succeed. It surely must be better than the hopeless StreetAir’s which may or may not ever return to service.

I wonder if this is the vehicle Arriva Kent Thameside had for a while? I don’t believe that vehicle was ever registered on the road and that it was just there for testing.

I’d like to see the Double deck one trialled at some point too. That again could work well.

 

[scosutsut]

Would prefer they were looking at the decker, if anything they have too many singles at the moment, the oldest just turning 10.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

And the oldest are getting new liveries too.

 

[A330Alex]

An update on Lothian from TfE:

Patronage
Fundamental shifts in societal working trends and the impact these have on travel patterns necessitated an evolving response throughout 2022. For example, the impact of the Omicron variant and subsequent advice from Scottish Government to work from home, resulted in a Saturday service being operated throughout January 2022. Customer numbers improved throughout the year from an initial 60% to just over 80% at year-end compared to pre-pandemic levels. Leisure travel has recovered well and this can be seen in a stronger recovery at weekends. The improving picture was a result of the lifting of restrictions, a gradual return to the office and in-person teaching at universities and the resumption of international tourism. However, it is clear that an element of working from home remains and will continue to impact on traditional travel behaviours and therefore the regularity of bus use. Concessionary travel for over-60s remains lesser recovered than other customer groups. The introduction of free travel for under 22s got off to a slow start but the City of Edinburgh has subsequently experienced strong uptake in relation to other parts of the country (around 75%). Further effort is required by all stakeholders to encourage over-60s back onto the bus network and to ensure all eligible under-22s are aware of the existence of and the process for applying for free travel. The development of key city projects and the backlog of utility and resurfacing works following the pandemic, has also supressed customer recovery on parts of the network*.

Network
The Lothian group are operating some 80% of pre-pandemic services and mileage. Recovery of the bus industry has been hampered by well documented issues in relation to the labour market which directly affected Lothian’s plans for driver recruitment and retention. This tempered the ability to react to some customer demand and forced strategic decisions in parts of the network. A significant amount of work has taken place reviewing driver duties and rotas with the aim of improving work-life balance and efficiencies. This has led to improved retention levels across the various parts of the Lothian Group. In the Autumn, the driver shortage became particularly acute at Lothian Country, leading to a review of operations. The result was a service change in November with the withdrawal of two local routes and a refocusing on trunk services to and from Edinburgh. This has allowed the operation to stabilise with a robust and reliable network delivering for customers. The changes at Lothian Country also allowed for the transfer of drivers to other parts of the business to help improve service delivery and reliability across the group, providing a solid platform for growth in 2023.

Recruitment
In response to the shortage of driving candidates Lothian launched a multi-platform recruitment drive which started to yield results towards the end of the year. During the course of 2022, 271 new drivers joined the company. Assuming that the improvement in recruitment continues, Lothian intends for the next service change to continue to build on the recovery seen so far. Opportunities in 2023 include the opening of the new tram line and the return of 2-way traffic on North Bridge. The completion of these projects will allow Lothian to redeploy resource tactically to improve frequencies and make journey times more reliable.

Operation Unicorn
Operation Unicorn had a significant impact on the business both in terms of severe network disruption and diversions and also in providing contract buses to support Police Scotland. Lothian assisted in the provision of contract buses day and night to support police deployment in and around the city centre. In total 300 journeys were provided across the 5 days, including ad-hoc contract buses supplied for the Scottish Parliament and also assisting in the deployment of stewards. This was achieved while simultaneously reacting to road closures, service diversions and curtailments with some timetables effectively scheduled and put into operation with less than an hours’ notice. Despite significant disruption there was a clear sense that customers understood the exceptional situation and it is testament to all those involved that over the 5 days customer numbers were only down 3.5%.

Special Events
Special events returned in significant numbers in 2022, demand having been supressed for such a long time. Lothian once again provided special service 98 to cater for events at Ingliston including concerts, festivals and the Royal Highland Show. Cruiselink also returned for the 2022 season (May to September), with service X99 providing a link between Queensferry and the City Centre. The season started slowly with some restrictions on ship capacity, however this eased over the summer resulting in strong customer demand.

Network Resilience
The volume of roadworks continues to have an impact on the reliability of the network. Although now in the final stages of the tram works, there have been a number of other major closures like London Road, Elm Row and Picardy Place through the latter stages of last year. On completion of tram works Lothian aims to be back fully operational on Leith Walk which will return stability and consistency back to the network in this area. Year to date there have been 1,155 planned roadworks or events that have impacted on journey times. Each one of these has meant either a diversion or restrictions on the road with either temporary traffic lights or lane drops. Over 3,000 customer notices have been issued in bus stops to try and keep customers informed, however this level of disruption can make travelling by bus less attractive which ultimately impacts on the ability to grow patronage.

Policy
Lothian have been consulted on various policies that the Council are working on including the Circulation Plan and Public Transport Action Plan. Lothian is currently developing a Decarbonisation Strategy which will map out the journey to decarbonising the 670 vehicles in the Lothian fleet.

Accessibility
Lothian was delighted to be recognised for work in accessibility across 2022. • Midlothian & East Lothian Business Awards 2022 ‘Community Impact’ Award finalist • Blue Badge Awards 2022 Most Inclusive Organisation finalist and Access Champion of the Year finalist • Scottish Transport Awards 2022 Excellence in Accessibility Winner • Herald and GenAnalytics Diversity Awards 2022 Diversity Hero finalist and Diversity in the Public Sector Winner

 

[Japrods]

There’s also discussion in the report of assessing the fleet to increase numbers using alternative fuels. But also assessing depots for suitability to deal with these new fuels. Which could possibly mean looking at new sites.

 

[GusB]

There’s also discussion in the report of assessing the fleet to increase numbers using alternative fuels. But also assessing depots for suitability to deal with these new fuels. Which could possibly mean looking at new sites.

Where in the report does it say this? Would you quote the relevant part, please?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

There’s also discussion in the report of assessing the fleet to increase numbers using alternative fuels. But also assessing depots for suitability to deal with these new fuels. Which could possibly mean looking at new sites.

That doesn't seem to be in the document file.

Does anyone know if the BZL Demonstrator will be out today, which route if so?

 

[computerSaysNo]

Bit of a weird question: does anyone know the resolution of the front HANOVER destination display screen? And ideally either the LED density or the physical dimensions of the screen. Thanks!

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Does anyone know if the BZL Demonstrator will be out today, which route if so?

Assuming Central are the ones that are going to be using it on the road, the 1 would have to be the most likely. It’s had its fair share of demonstrators over the years.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Assuming Central are the ones that are going to be using it on the road, the 1 would have to be the most likely. It’s had its fair share of demonstrators over the years.

I'm told by a friend who is a Driver at Central that the BZL will have a fixed duty on the 23. Starts Wednesday.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I'm told by a friend who is a Driver at Central that the BZL will have a fixed duty on the 23. Starts Wednesday.

I wonder how capacity will work out if this is the case?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I'm told by a friend who is a Driver at Central that the BZL will have a fixed duty on the 23. Starts Wednesday.

A booked single deck run on the 23? I’m not sure that will favour too well, unless it was a duplicate working.

 

[CN04NRJ]

A booked single deck run on the 23? I’m not sure that will favour too well, unless it was a duplicate working.

It'll be the first 23 out of the garage daily. Out around 0550 back in around 1950.

 

[Blindtraveler]

What does that first run of the day do when it comes out the garage? I quite like to intercept this somewhere for a spin

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

What does that first run of the day do when it comes out the garage? I quite like to intercept this somewhere for a spin

I’m sure this run comes out of Central and starts at Canonmills where it departs for Greenbank at 0555.