Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[stevenedin]

They’ll have no choice but to stick with MCV. Wright and ADL don’t body Volvo chassis’ anymore as far as I’m led to believe. Instead offering their own integral bus.

Why do they need to buy Volvo?

 

[Lx008]

That’s like asking why you drink tenants and Irn Bru in Scotland.

All jokes aside, Lothian has shown that they only really buy heavy buses and are not interested in the light bus/ integrated body/drivetrain market, and well, Volvo is just the best at producing bus chassis.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

That’s like asking why you drink tenants and Irn Bru in Scotland.

All jokes aside, Lothian has shown that they only really buy heavy buses and are not interested in the light bus/ integrated body/drivetrain market, and well, Volvo is just the best at producing bus chassis.

Lothian and their predecessors have broadly bought Leyland and then Volvo for decades (since the mid-fifties as far as I can tell), the only major deviation from that was the period buying large numbers of Dennis Dart SLFs and Dennis Tridents, but that ended when Transbus failed (I recall that the last batch of Tridents were taken without warranties). Since then there have been penny numbers of other types (six Solos, six Wright StreetAirs, 15 Scania OmniCities, 15 ADL E40H, 4 BYD/ADL deckers), and hundreds and hundreds of Volvos (I might be missing a few, but at least: 125 B7TLs, 90 B7RLE, 225 B9TL, 228 B5TL, 40 B5LH, 50 7900, 45 B8RLE, 78 B8L(T)...)

 

[DunsBus]

Lothian and their predecessors have broadly bought Leyland and then Volvo for decades (since the mid-fifties as far as I can tell), the only major deviation from that was the period buying large numbers of Dennis Dart SLFs and Dennis Tridents, but that ended when Transbus failed (I recall that the last batch of Tridents were taken without warranties). Since then there have been penny numbers of other types (six Solos, six Wright StreetAirs, 15 Scania OmniCities, 15 ADL E40H, 4 BYD/ADL deckers), and hundreds and hundreds of Volvos (I might be missing a few, but at least: 125 B7TLs, 90 B7RLE, 225 B9TL, 228 B5TL, 40 B5LH, 50 7900, 45 B8RLE, 78 B8L(T)...)

There was a batch of 12 Darts bought in the LRT era - early nineties.

I remember Neil Renilson tried to buy the last batch of Tridents at a reduced price given that they came without warranties, his reasoning being that you wouldn't buy an ex-list washing machine at full price without a warranty, but was unsuccessful. Hence the switch back to Volvo.

 

[bonnyrigglad1]

From what I understood the buses were delivered but they had been built to the wrong spec in some respect, so they were sent back to have this sorted. Perhaps seating layout was part of this.
I don't see why they wouldn't have been fitted in Egypt?

Had also heard this, in regards to wrong spec, not sure to what extent it was wrong, but whatever they had sent to seafield works got sent back to be fixed.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet - there is currently an active process of refreshing the madder on the 11 plate B9TLs. This involves part repaint at Seafield with the madder receiving a new coating. I think the lower front bumper white might be painted too? The rest of the body is just polished.
So far, 364, 954 and 958 have been completed with 363 and 959 in progress. Worth saying that the buses which have had this completed so far have not gained the black behind the rear logo.

Seen 954 just now, Looks as though the dome has been repainted as well as the whole of the engine cover/rear light panels aswell. As you say all the white above the madder just seems “polished” if even that

 

[LKF747R]

Tracked 510 and it has just returned to Longstone

 

[Bus9120UK]

Tracked 510 and it has just returned to Longstone

Good - unclear at the moment if it was repainted when repaired. It returned from Ferrymill to Longstone but was transferred to Seafield on Tuesday night.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Are there any dupes being ran on the 100 today? Just saw 500 (one of the Skylink Gemini 3s) go past on an Airport bound 100, tailing one of the normal XLBs (both of which were rather full).

 

[Bus9120UK]

Are there any dupes being ran on the 100 today? Just saw 500 (one of the Skylink Gemini 3s) go past on an Airport bound 100, tailing one of the normal XLBs (both of which were rather full).

No duplicate, scheduled run. It was 1063 which left the depot on it which was subsequently swapped at the Airport with 500. One of the Airlink XLBs must've not been available.

 

[Scotrail314209]

No duplicate, scheduled run. It was 1063 which left the depot on it which was subsequently swapped at the Airport with 500. One of the Airlink XLBs must've not been available.

Ah, was wondering because another XLB passed shortly after (3 in a row which means one must’ve been significantly late).

 

[buslad1988]

Ah, was wondering because another XLB passed shortly after (3 in a row which means one must’ve been significantly late).

The recent changes have caused havoc with running times and reliability - surprising what a difference it’s making having to serve Hanover Street/Mound to Waverley Bridge. Also the hold-ups for 3/4 mins due to the traffic lights upon departure. Certainly some of the Airlink drivers don’t seem happy about the change and the schedulers tweaking!

They really need to add an additional bus - I witnessed two Bright Bus E300’s sat waiting and no XLB’s turned up for a good 10/15 mins.

It’s all very well having umpteen supervisors on the bridge but they’d be much better having an extra bus/driver out on the road.

 

[Bus9120UK]

The recent changes have caused havoc with running times and reliability - surprising what a difference it’s making having to serve Hanover Street/Mound to Waverley Bridge. Also the hold-ups for 3/4 mins due to the traffic lights upon departure. Certainly some of the Airlink drivers don’t seem happy about the change and the schedulers tweaking!

They really need to add an additional bus - I witnessed two Bright Bus E300’s sat waiting and no XLB’s turned up for a good 10/15 mins.

It’s all very well having umpteen supervisors on the bridge but they’d be much better having an extra bus/driver out on the road.

This change already had an extra bus added on the road!
From experience buses have even been delayed from the high flow of passengers boarding at the stops along the route.

 

[CN04NRJ]

No duplicate, scheduled run. It was 1063 which left the depot on it which was subsequently swapped at the Airport with 500. One of the Airlink XLBs must've not been available.

The airlink was already stretched with only 12 available vehicles, it was only a matter of time before this happened with the new terminus and timetables.

 

[Lothiangem22]

Lothian have very much got focus on the airlink just now. I believe two B5TL’s are being rebranded into the new airlink livery as spares.

Supervisors are being dedicated to ensuring the smooth running on a daily basis.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Lothian have very much got focus on the airlink just now. I believe two B5TL’s are being rebranded into the new airlink livery as spares.

Supervisors are being dedicated to ensuring the smooth running on a daily basis.

Second time I've heard of this and nothing has come of it. Still makes no sense with no Gemini 3s being available to free for this. Plus of course that's not the Airlink livery, it's a wrap advertising the service.

The airlink was already stretched with only 12 available vehicles, it was only a matter of time before this happened with the new terminus and timetables.

Thirteen. What was interesting to me is that all three available were already in the service section ready for use based on tracking.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The recent changes have caused havoc with running times and reliability - surprising what a difference it’s making having to serve Hanover Street/Mound to Waverley Bridge. Also the hold-ups for 3/4 mins due to the traffic lights upon departure. Certainly some of the Airlink drivers don’t seem happy about the change and the schedulers tweaking!

They really need to add an additional bus - I witnessed two Bright Bus E300’s sat waiting and no XLB’s turned up for a good 10/15 mins.

It’s all very well having umpteen supervisors on the bridge but they’d be much better having an extra bus/driver out on the road.

This change already had an extra bus added on the road!
From experience buses have even been delayed from the high flow of passengers boarding at the stops along the route.

The airlink was already stretched with only 12 available vehicles, it was only a matter of time before this happened with the new terminus and timetables.

Lothian have very much got focus on the airlink just now. I believe two B5TL’s are being rebranded into the new airlink livery as spares.

Supervisors are being dedicated to ensuring the smooth running on a daily basis.

Second time I've heard of this and nothing has come of it. Still makes no sense with no Gemini 3s being available to free for this. Plus of course that's not the Airlink livery, it's a wrap advertising the service.


Thirteen. What was interesting to me is that all three available were already in the service section ready for use based on tracking.

Lothian really need to focus on getting the quality of their product up. Now that the 100 and the AIRX from McGill's are operating the same route and mostly the same stops, with the AIRX being cheaper, the only benefit to taking the 100 is what they're marketing as better quality, and that isn't going to come if they've got too few vehicles on the route or unpredictable run times. Since the change in City terminus, the AIRX buses I've seen have had a lot more passengers on them, which is both good for McGill's and bad for Lothian.
If I were Lothian I'd be seriously looking at how I could get the 100 service to stand out in a good way - electric buses? Air conditioning? Emphasise the better accessibility of the vehicles?

Give McGill's an inch of room and they'll take a mile - they're competing with the tours already, they're competing with the 100 already - their next move might be City service? East Coast services? And it's just going to end up in a poorer situation for passengers - areas or routes that they can't use their day ticket on, more expensive fares and poorer service quality in areas that Lothian withdraw from. That's been McGill's expansion strategy in the West; if they can get away with doing it here as well, I believe they will.

 

[stevenedin]

I can see Lothian placing another order soon with the rate of passenger growth recently. We seem to be seeing a return to pre-2020 levels and Edinburgh City Centre seems busier than ever in recent months.

I’m wondering if they will buy more second hand buses again like they did in 2018.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Lothian really need to focus on getting the quality of their product up. Now that the 100 and the AIRX from McGill's are operating the same route and mostly the same stops, with the AIRX being cheaper, the only benefit to taking the 100 is what they're marketing as better quality, and that isn't going to come if they've got too few vehicles on the route or unpredictable run times. Since the change in City terminus, the AIRX buses I've seen have had a lot more passengers on them, which is both good for McGill's and bad for Lothian.
If I were Lothian I'd be seriously looking at how I could get the 100 service to stand out in a good way - electric buses? Air conditioning? Emphasise the better accessibility of the vehicles?

Give McGill's an inch of room and they'll take a mile - they're competing with the tours already, they're competing with the 100 already - their next move might be City service? East Coast services? And it's just going to end up in a poorer situation for passengers - areas or routes that they can't use their day ticket on, more expensive fares and poorer service quality in areas that Lothian withdraw from. That's been McGill's expansion strategy in the West; if they can get away with doing it here as well, I believe they will.

My experience is opposite - Bright Buses have gotten quieter since the terminus change and Airlink has been extremely busy. As I've mentioned part of the inconsistency with buses arriving has been a result of the numbers of passengers boarding. Last week I was on an Airlink vehicle which was completely full and was unable to board passengers (there was 15-20 waiting) at Edinburgh Zoo.

 

[Lothiangem22]

Last weekend bright bus had a bus break down at the top of Waverley bridge…. You couldn’t make that up.
Personally, if I want to make it to the airport on time I’ll pay the extra couple quid for Lothian.

 

[JKP]

A reminder that McGills Eastern Scottish operation is up before the Traffic Commissioner shortly. I assume that their AIRX is operated under this licence. It will be interesting to see what if any, outcome is of this Inquiry.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I can see Lothian placing another order soon with the rate of passenger growth recently. We seem to be seeing a return to pre-2020 levels and Edinburgh City Centre seems busier than ever in recent months.

I’m wondering if they will buy more second hand buses again like they did in 2018.

I believe Airlink replacements are planned for 2025, though in my opinion the current ones could do with an external refresh in the meantime.

 

[overthewater]

All McGill has to do, is point to Lothian country buses and say there not having good time either, and they have still NOT been able to make any improvements since they left the market.

Back to the main point, if Lothian does buy new stock for the 100 I hope it will have better seats, there are not the best.

 

[Lothiangem22]

Airlink is due a refresh in 2025. It’s unknown as to what the replacement will be, however, any smaller buses will require a frequency increase.

Central depot is unable to house hydrogen due to its city centre location, so I’d expect an order being announce once the depot has been electrified

 

[stevenedin]

Airlink is due a refresh in 2025. It’s unknown as to what the replacement will be, however, any smaller buses will require a frequency increase.

Central depot is unable to house hydrogen due to its city centre location, so I’d expect an order being announce once the depot has been electrified

Maybe E500EVs?

 

[CN04NRJ]

Maybe E500EVs?

It's definitely going to be electric, whatever the replacements will be. Needs to be high capacity with good luggage capacity. Also up to the long running boards and short turnaround before going back out.

 

[Bus9120UK]

If there is a new Airlink fleet due next year it raises the question on whats next for 1128-1140. I am doubtful that they'd be used for Skylink services so I'd expect conversion into normal city vehicles like 1126/7, however both took well over a month to complete raising questions on whether Lothian would outsource some of these to speed up the process.

 

[Blindtraveler]

It also begs the question of what will they order for it as they can't do like for like as ADL has taken the XLB out of its range.

I can hardly see them going for the full integral e400 and when I've suggested it previously on here, I was informed that electric probably isn't viable for such a service.

 

[GusB]

It also begs the question of what will they order for it as they can't do like for like as ADL has taken the XLB out of its range.

I can hardly see them going for the full integral e400 and when I've suggested it previously on here, I was informed that electric probably isn't viable for such a service.

Never say never! While the B8L/XLB combination might not be publicly available, if the order is big enough a manufacturer may be persuaded to change its mind - see the recent re-introduction of the diesel Solo, for example. Having said that, considering Lothian's route map to electrification, I think that particular ship has sailed.

I'd be keeping an eye on Volvo. While there isn't a tri-axle version of the BZL yet, there is a tri-axle BZR in its range; not having a tri-axle, low-floor double decker in the range leaves a significant gap and I suspect it will want to plug that hole eventually. As for bodywork, Alexander Dennis may be unwilling to build, but I'm sure MCV would step in if necessary.

 

[Lx008]

Never say never! While the B8L/XLB combination might not be publicly available, if the order is big enough a manufacturer may be persuaded to change its mind - see the recent re-introduction of the diesel Solo, for example. Having said that, considering Lothian's route map to electrification, I think that particular ship has sailed.

I'd be keeping an eye on Volvo. While there isn't a tri-axle version of the BZL yet, there is a tri-axle BZR in its range; not having a tri-axle, low-floor double decker in the range leaves a significant gap and I suspect it will want to plug that hole eventually. As for bodywork, Alexander Dennis may be unwilling to build, but I'm sure MCV would step in if necessary.

How difficult would it be to modify the new BZR based. 8900 to become a double decker, or or is it possible to stretch the MCV bodies BZL even further or does that become too heavy