Low Speed Derailment Sheffield 11/11

[richw]

This most definitely isn’t the case. I’ve an acquaintance who operates for one of the larger coach companies and they’re turning down jobs now because there’s an awful lot of work. Running duplicate services etc.
The holiday coach companies may be in a different position but it’s finding drivers

I can second this.
Well managed companies I know are turning down work as they are stretched to maximum capacity. It’s been a huge case of survival of the fittest. One independent owner I was talking to this week said he’s never turned down so much work. He’s running all of his olicences daily on hire, he doesn’t recall that situation in all his years of operations. He said his only competition now is the big groups as several of the local cowboy independents have thrown in the towel.

 

[tbtc]

This incident should remind us how vulnerable the railway is to incidents at critical points. Places like this need solutions before we start throwing cash at reopening long closed lines. Like at Castlefield the restricted geography dictates very expensive options. Like in Manchester some very extensive civil engineering is the only way to bring relief. River below, road to one side, tram and hill to the other - and a mockingly close railway heading across at too acute an angle to make a connection towards Penistone. Some sort of tunnelled tracks below Park Hill may be needed.

^^ This, this THIS! ^^

There needs to be more enthusiasm for sorting out the basics.

"simple" problems like this don't necessarily have "simple" solutions but we need to have a better everyday railway before we can get the crayons out and more on to the "nice to have" stuff

The Stoppers can only use 2C at Sheffield at the minute due to needing to keep 7 free for other trains. 2C of course can only fit two cars...

2C is a real problem - the Hope Valley services need longer trains at certain times of the week (from the Sheffield end, of course some quiet services at the Sheffield end were/will be busy services at the Manchester end, given the long duration of the Hope Valley stoppers and the fact that the Sheffield train is just an everyday commuter train at the Piccadilly end)...

...but longer trains means not being able to use the southern end bay (2C) which then means occupying one of the limited number of through platforms at Sheffield, or competing with the London "semi-fast" for the other southern bay (7). Longer London trains may mean that the days of the semi-fast using 7 may be limited, but then that causes other problems (given that, for a long time, the "semi-fast" had to run up to Woodburn to get out of the way for best part of an hour - which meant using a couple of paths in the northern throat as well as blocking the Lincoln line, which now has the addition of the Gainsborough service).

No easy solution - there may be some who'd suggest turning the Hope Valley stopper into a through service, e.g. onto a Doncaster stopper - but the Northern network is already crippled with unreliable services that are too long in duration so I think that it'd be a backward move (even if it did mean through Meadowhall trains for Hope Valley residents and a through train to the Peak District for the good people of Rotherham/ Donny).

 

[yorksrob]

To be honest, you can sort out the throat at Sheffield Midland as much as you like, but a train keeling over there is always going to create a mess, short of transferring it somewhere else.

 

[Spartacus]

You weren't, and reports on Radio 2 and possibly elsewhere suggesting nothing was moving at Sheffield were incorrect. The Hope Valley Manchester route lost early TPE services until about 8.30 and East Midlands Norwich-Liverpool were sent round the Dore curve but soon resumed normal operation. Northern stoppers had small delays but ran to timetable. As the day wore on more services resumed using emergency working.

However there are safety and practical constraints on reopening too soon. Platform 1 was obviously blocked along with the track next to it on which the wagons had derailed. The next track and Platform 2 were needed for recovery of the derailed vehicles. Platforms 3 and 4 were out of use to allow TPE, XC and limited Northern trains on other platforms to use the limited tracks still available to run norrh past the derailed vehicles.

I suspect that if overhead wiring had been spanning the complex layout the introduction of the crane would have been rather more difficult.

Something else that hasn’t been picked up is that the derailment didn’t exactly do the various cables located nearby any good. Once the wagons are all righted or removed there’s still a lot of work to do.

 

[stuartl]

Looks as though they are still emptying the wagons this morning. Two tankers plus one of the vacuum lorries that they use to remove soil from around pipes, parked on the road outside. Possibly the vac lorry is sucking up the spilt cement.

 

[Class 170101]

2C is a real problem - the Hope Valley services need longer trains at certain times of the week (from the Sheffield end, of course some quiet services at the Sheffield end were/will be busy services at the Manchester end, given the long duration of the Hope Valley stoppers and the fact that the Sheffield train is just an everyday commuter train at the Piccadilly end)...

...but longer trains means not being able to use the southern end bay (2C) which then means occupying one of the limited number of through platforms at Sheffield, or competing with the London "semi-fast" for the other southern bay (7). Longer London trains may mean that the days of the semi-fast using 7 may be limited, but then that causes other problems (given that, for a long time, the "semi-fast" had to run up to Woodburn to get out of the way for best part of an hour - which meant using a couple of paths in the northern throat as well as blocking the Lincoln line, which now has the addition of the Gainsborough service).

No easy solution - there may be some who'd suggest turning the Hope Valley stopper into a through service, e.g. onto a Doncaster stopper - but the Northern network is already crippled with unreliable services that are too long in duration so I think that it'd be a backward move (even if it did mean through Meadowhall trains for Hope Valley residents and a through train to the Peak District for the good people of Rotherham/ Donny).

Arguably a through service may be the only option if Platform 2C cannot be lengthened would be to send the local Manchester onwards beyond Sheffield.

To be honest, you can sort out the throat at Sheffield Midland as much as you like, but a train keeling over there is always going to create a mess, short of transferring it somewhere else.

True but if operators kept their diversionary route knowledge up then XC and Freight in particular may have been able to run via Barrow Hill Complete rather than just its Southern end, thereby allowing more local services into Sheffield.

 

[Killingworth]

Arguably a through service may be the only option if Platform 2C cannot be lengthened would be to send the local Manchester onwards beyond Sheffield.


True but if operators kept their diversionary route knowledge up then XC and Freight in particular may have been able to run via Barrow Hill Complete rather than just its Southern end, thereby allowing more local services into Sheffield.

Until fairly recently a 17.14 Hope Valley Manchester bound service worked through from Adwick. It's time keeping was awful!

Next thing we'll know is the Hope Valley stopper proposed to run via Darnall to Chesterfield. It would make sense to some. But that's a subject for the highly contentious speculative ideas section.

The Hope Valley stoppers are normally operated by 3 units, a 150, a 195/0 and a 195/1 - and all use Platform 7 as much as 2C. Most have a short layover in Sheffield, often too short to return on time. Making any extensions to Platforms 3, 4 and 2C are severely hampered by the proximity of converging trackwork and listed buildings. As are any other major alterations. Again, that's a likely topic for another thread.

 

[dosxuk]

Lifting operations still going on this afternoon

 

[Swimbar]

10 people standing watching a crane lift a tank.
No wonder our railways cost so much to run!

 

[Bald Rick]

10 people standing watching a crane lift a tank.
No wonder our railways cost so much to run!

That’s the sort of idiotic comment you get from people who report seeing lots of track workers standing around doing nothing when the train they are on goes past a site of work...

 

[GB]

10 people standing watching a crane lift a tank.
No wonder our railways cost so much to run!

What do you expect them to do when there is a lift in motion?

 

[Ploughman]

Did you include the other one on the far side of the wagon? A slinger.

 

[InOban]

That’s the sort of idiotic comment you get from people who report seeing lots of track workers standing around doing nothing when the train they are on goes past a site of work...

But nothing is moving. There will be a small specialist team engaged in the task of lifting the wagons. Anyone not directly involved in this is getting in the road and increasing the risk. Too many people on site in my view.

 

[1D53]

According to Traksy, Hallam line services appear to be going through to Sheffield now, which is good news.

They weren't/aren't, it's a system error.

 

[yorksrob]

They weren't/aren't, it's a system error.

That's annoying. They were showing everything correctly yesterday !

 

[Bald Rick]

But nothing is moving. There will be a small specialist team engaged in the task of lifting the wagons. Anyone not directly involved in this is getting in the road and increasing the risk. Too many people on site in my view.

There’s a lot more going on the site than just the lifting. Besides, it’s always better to have s few spare hands around than not enough. It’s called risk mitigation.

 

[_toommm_]

They weren't/aren't, it's a system error.

They’ll be going as far as Attercliffe Sidings using the same headcode (so it looks like they’re setting off from Meadowhall towards Sheffield), but operating as an ECS move. Similarly, on the way into Meadowhall, they’ll use the headcode for the service to Leeds on the ECS portion from the sidings.

 

[43096]

That’s the sort of idiotic comment you get from people who report seeing lots of track workers standing around doing nothing when the train they are on goes past a site of work...

To be fair, that's better than the motorways where you get mile after mile of cones with no sign of anyone at all, let alone the pretence of doing some work.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, that's better than the motorways where you get mile after mile of cones with no sign of anyone at all, let alone the pretence of doing some work.

Is that not why we have the cones hotline !

 

[43096]

Is that not why we have the cones hotline !

If I ever hear the words "cones hotline" I always imagine John Major saying it, in the way that his caricature on Spitting Image would.

 

[yorksrob]

If I ever hear the words "cones hotline" I always imagine John Major saying it, in the way that his caricature on Spitting Image would.

"More peas please Norma !

 

[M60lad]

Considering its now Sunday and work is still going on to lift the wagons could it be longer than Tuesday before all lines are reopened? Obviously this depends on what damage is actually found once the tracks are clear.

 

[Killingworth]

Considering its now Sunday and work is still going on to lift the wagons could it be longer than Tuesday before all lines are reopened? Obviously this depends on what damage is actually found once the tracks are clear.

Given the position of the track damage across critical points I can't see them being replaced by Tuesday. I'd have thought it likely they'll restore plain track and manage for some time without that section of through road.

TPE South Pennine and Cross Country use the north end of Platform 1 and can pass a Northern service standing at the south end. There doesn't seem to have been a lot of traffic using the full length of that through section.

 

[dosxuk]

All wagons moved and track relaying in progress this morning. If they needed the big crane to do some of the lifting I'm not surprised they've had to wait until Sunday to close the ring road.

 

[tbtc]

To be honest, you can sort out the throat at Sheffield Midland as much as you like, but a train keeling over there is always going to create a mess, short of transferring it somewhere else.

Well, if it happens at the western side of the station then you'd like to think that the eastern side of the station could at least function but the fact that those platforms can only accommodate southbound services scuppers that - I'm not saying it'd be cheap to change the signalling to permit services to depart 6/8 northbound but it'd be a big benefit if they could - that kind of relatively modest proposal that we should be focussing more on.

True but if operators kept their diversionary route knowledge up then XC and Freight in particular may have been able to run via Barrow Hill Complete rather than just its Southern end, thereby allowing more local services into Sheffield.

Sounds good in theory but how many XC services a week would you need to divert (and therefore run non-stop from Wakefield/ Doncaster to Chesterfield/ Derby) to ensure that sufficient staff retain the route knowledge?

What's the critical mass of drivers/guards required to keep this on their card?

Given the population of Sheffield, how many services should the city lose for the sake of route knowledge?

And how many other cities should XC be avoiding on a regular basis, e.g. would you miss out Birmingham/ Leeds too? Where do you strike the balance?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

All wagons moved and track relaying in progress this morning. If they needed the big crane to do some of the lifting I'm not surprised they've had to wait until Sunday to close the ring road.

Thats good going on remediation works given situation 24hrs earlier and nice to see some determination to get on with it is still prevalent in the industry. Also as RAIB advised on twitter they were attending the scene they've clearly gathered sufficient evidence to allow NR to get on with repairing the damage. If there putting it back as it was wont be too demanding on signal testing either as long as that's not deemed to be a contributory factor.

 

[Taunton]

There’s a lot more going on the site than just the lifting. Besides, it’s always better to have s few spare hands around than not enough. It’s called risk mitigation.

Not at all. It's ludicrous to have people standing doing nothing like that right next to a big lift. Several things can happen - chains can snap and go wild, or even this

Hi-viz won't save you.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not at all. It's ludicrous to have people standing doing nothing like that right next to a big lift. Several things can happen - chains can snap and go wild, or even this

Hi-viz won't save you.

Tauton good point and one of NR's lifesaving rules is around exclusion zones being maintained around plant and lifting operations. I believe it was 5m for those not directly involved with the lift.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Many years ago I was walking past a building site when one of the world's largest mobile cranes at the time suddenly collapsed because of a hydraulics failure on one of the outriggers. I only escaped because it caught on the corner of a building that I was next too. Someone just in front of me was crushed to death instantly by the pulley block.

I still walk 'round the block' to avoid going under or near cranes.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not at all. It's ludicrous to have people standing doing nothing like that right next to a big lift. Several things can happen - chains can snap and go wild, or even this

Hi-viz won't save you.

How can anyone writing here possibly know what those guys were or weren’t doing at that precise time? Given that the Kirow driver isn’t watching the lift, it seems to me its’s not actually being lifted. Shall we just let the recovery teams get on with it?