That’s why they have ordered extra trains for Lumo and HT. To operate some services as 10 car.
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Lumo - passenger experience criticised in Which? review
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styles
Member
I mean FG/Lumo have already confirmed they are going to add extra cars, so they clearly believe they'll make dough from it.
Hmmm, the reporter should try a XC Voyager set on a long trip...... or a 170 with high-density seating. Those trains are VERY tired......
Indeed, they need to get out more, try a ram-loaded XC Voyager from Plymouth-Edinburgh, or a XC 170 Nottingham-Cardiff. They would find out all about discomfort and would also be charged an extortionate fare, and it's 50:50 a trolley would be on, even if there was a trolley on they would most likely be walking to the trolley (not the trolley coming through) and the selection rather limited.
TPO
I agree that reputation of the magazine has declined in recent decades*, but as far as the 'reach' of its owner is concerned, The Consumers Association has a number of special legal powers and involvement in regulatory functions which have been granted by legislation over the years - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Which?#Legal_powers.
I find it rather worrying that an organisation whose primary revenue-earning publication is quite widely regarded as being of questionable accuracy, objectivity and usefulness should retain such statutory powers and influence.
FWIW, I think a good case could be made for Martin Lewis (of moneysavingexpert.com) being more effective in championing consumer rights these days.
* I've never been particularly impressed with it. Even way back in the 1970s I remember their group tests regularly declaring a particular product to be the best in its class, only to find out all too often that the model in question was no longer on the market by the time the magazine actually dropped through your letterbox. I think the straw that broke the camel's back for me was when Motoring Which? criticised a Porsche 911 for having a small boot. That's a bit like complaining that a gold necklace is "a bit on the heavy side".
Likewise I've rarely found many empty seats on the Saturday evening Edinburgh to Newcastle - at 2056, it's almost an hour later than LNER's last service. Largely it is well used for journeys between the two cities but you do get some connecting from further afield (I've certainly used it for this when visiting parts of the west of Scotland for the day!).
I can't say I've ever had a bad experience on that train either - though it's admittedly quite different from Lumo's usual long distance fare. Catering isn't really relevant, very few passengers have luggage as it's more getting Saturday day trippers home, and expectations aren't necessarily as high. I think a lot of people would rather have a mediocre (but good value) 2056 train than an expensive all bells and whistles 2000...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But then what's happening there is Lumo being used as a fast regional service rather akin to the Javelin services. On which there is limited luggage capacity and it's fine because hardly anyone brings any, and on which the seats could be high density (but aren't) because most journeys are short.
Comfort, catering and luggage space are more of importance on longer distance trains. Though technically Lumo's luggage rules, if enforced strictly, would mean people with a few shopping bags from such a day trip being turned away...
supervc-10
Member
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- Messages
- 730
I get what you mean, but that's kind of what I was trying to get at! To get those headline low fares, you're flying basic on Ryanair (and I love them for it)
I do think though that a lack of seat selection on their site is a bit of a own goal though, something that's easily chargeable for. Would definitely be easy to charge for a table of 4, and I would imagine many families would be happy to do that. Could also do a system like Ryanair do where if you pre-pay for allocated seating, you can pick where you are, but if you want to save money, you only receive the allocation nearer the time and might be separated if travelling together. The only issue there would be making sure that families with young kids aren't separated apart.
Lumo have introduced seat selector. (Website only not app)
Train Seat Reservations | Book Your Railway Seating | Lumo
Book your train seat directly through our website or app for a seamless experience onboard.www.lumo.co.uk
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes, I've noticed this in the last couple of days. It's a bit scruffy though and just asks you to use the PDF if you want to know information about a given seat.
It will be interesting to see if they progress to charging for the facility.
Obviously comfort is subjective, but as a leggy 6’ 6”er I had no problems at all with Newcastle to London last year. Preferable to standard on LNER, and substantially cheaper. Limited stops and arrived a few minutes early.
styles
Member
That's good to know. I'm quite short so legroom doesn't normally cause me issues. I didn't find comfort much better or worse than LNER personally. I normally book table seats on such journeys as I often have my laptop with me or whatever, so Lumo does win that one for me. But I tend to book my journeys far enough in advance that I secure a table seat.
Lumo esque service offerings are definitely the future of long distance train travel. While I'm sure many won't want to hear this; it's exactly what happened to short haul European airlines which went from 0% LCC to >50% low cost in the space of a couple of decades. You can see it all over the EU now as well.
The moves from the DfT to reducing ticketing flexibility (eg LNER) imo make it more likely this will happen. As air carriers have found out, once you are being compared on Skyscanner etc then cheapest flight nearly always wins. I know a few people that travel Edinburgh to London and visa versa mainly for leisure and they tended to previously buy a super off peak return. Now that flexibility has steadily eroded they all use Trainline or similar and choose the cheapest advance with suitable times, which is often lumo (and as others have pointed out I suspect lumo massively underestimated demand and could offer much more aggressive fares with more seats and still be more profitable).
It's going to be super interesting to see how GWR get on. If they have some pre 9am arrivals on Lumo "South West" into London I suspect they will be spectacularly busy compared to the anytime fares GWR "offer".
I also suspect the DfT will get their hand forced slightly in keeping open access, because it's a good news story for the government when new trains and services get offered and it doesn't cost the govt any money. But let's see.
The moves from the DfT to reducing ticketing flexibility (eg LNER) imo make it more likely this will happen. As air carriers have found out, once you are being compared on Skyscanner etc then cheapest flight nearly always wins. I know a few people that travel Edinburgh to London and visa versa mainly for leisure and they tended to previously buy a super off peak return. Now that flexibility has steadily eroded they all use Trainline or similar and choose the cheapest advance with suitable times, which is often lumo (and as others have pointed out I suspect lumo massively underestimated demand and could offer much more aggressive fares with more seats and still be more profitable).
It's going to be super interesting to see how GWR get on. If they have some pre 9am arrivals on Lumo "South West" into London I suspect they will be spectacularly busy compared to the anytime fares GWR "offer".
I also suspect the DfT will get their hand forced slightly in keeping open access, because it's a good news story for the government when new trains and services get offered and it doesn't cost the govt any money. But let's see.
I think it's definitely a part of the future, but low cost hasn't killed "full service" in the airline sphere, and I don't think it ever will. Plus, there will always be people wanting to make use of the flexibility of tickets that don't specify a train, and the ability to buy a walk up fare.
Striking that balance is where the DfT have their work cut out.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And those people will pay more (though the question is how much more), and may switch to the car if that offering is removed as the car is fully flexible.
One of the aspects of the LNER trial is that it covers very long journeys of which there are few in the UK that are just a bit far to drive for most - unusually for these journeys air (with high fares and no flexibility) is the norm. Apply the same* thing to London to Birmingham and I'm not sure people will like it.
* Noting that Northern's Advances are basically fixed fare inflexible walk up tickets - the price doesn't substantially go up near departure nor is availability particularly limited so you just buy one when you know which train to catch, which isn't anything like LNER's scheme.
styles
Member
Still a thing: https://www.lumo.co.uk/plan-your-journey/lumoeats
Menu -> plan your journey -> LumoEats
I mean the service that allowed you to order food.
dan4291
Member
Yes that has been discontinued, very few people were using it.
There are some flows where mostly advance tickets would make sense, but for London - Birmingham (as an example) alternatives need to be available.
But let's stop there before we drag the thread down a rabbit hole that's probably already been well used...
styles
Member
Ah yes I believe that was discontinued months ago. The pre-order website doesn't have a valid certificate any more and the only reference to pre-order is in the passenger charter (which I expect they just haven't remembered to update, or they have some convoluted process for doing so).
raildemon
New Member
I've done Lumo multiple times before, it was fantastic. Admittedly first class on all occasions but very pleasant nonetheless!
styles
Member
You've travelled Lumo 1st class?
Are you thinking of LNER by any chance?
Or are you just appreciating the lounge access?
Lumo have no first class.
AbsoluteBlock
Member
I think that requires some qualification though: the seat reservations on French TGVs are mandatory, which is not the case for Lumo. It is also worth noting that, although a seat reservation is included in the normal price for TGV tickets as sold through SNCF Connect, if purchased separately, these can be between €10 and €45 dependant on route and class, and are a fixed price irrespective of class (and usually at the higher end of the price range) if bought from an SNCF conductor at the station. Lumo admittedly have only 14 non-reservable seats, which is considerably fewer than on other British TOCs, but Lumo should at least allow you to stand, which is more than you can say for SNCF.
danchester
Member
- Joined
- 3 Oct 2018
- Messages
- 79
It did its job, which was to soften the blow of the limited food offering at launch. Ditto LumoLuggage, which is still advertised but surely even fewer people use. Both PR exercises really.
I don't know. I don't think the car is as much of an option as you make out for most people. Traffic is so bad on most motorways, especially near big cities, it is a real pain (in fact I suspect one of the main reasons train ridership rose so much is because traffic became so intolerable).
My point is though lumo does have fully flexible tickets and LNER doesn't (apart from anytime but they are so expensive it's a niche market - few will use them for leisure and business travel is significantly declining). If you want fully flexible off peak then lumo is the only option.
I read the original article and was somewhat dismayed to read that:
"The hot drinks urn is on the Fritz as we near Newcastle."
I'd never heard this (derogatory) expression which apparently dates from 1902, however I guess it's a term referencing Germans, cockney rhyming slang, (Fritz Lang = bang?? Perhaps), or some reference to "The War", Fritz/blitz=destroyed, "kaput"??
80 years on I thought we'd all grown up a bit, no need for Top Gear style reporting in a supposedly serious consumer magazine.
With that sort of journalism Which? appears to have sunk since my parents read it in the 1970s, seeking out the best household appliances.
As it is I'll form my own (revised if necessary) opinion
when I next travel on that route.
"The hot drinks urn is on the Fritz as we near Newcastle."
I'd never heard this (derogatory) expression which apparently dates from 1902, however I guess it's a term referencing Germans, cockney rhyming slang, (Fritz Lang = bang?? Perhaps), or some reference to "The War", Fritz/blitz=destroyed, "kaput"??
80 years on I thought we'd all grown up a bit, no need for Top Gear style reporting in a supposedly serious consumer magazine.
With that sort of journalism Which? appears to have sunk since my parents read it in the 1970s, seeking out the best household appliances.
As it is I'll form my own (revised if necessary) opinion
when I next travel on that route.
However, I might add that Ryanair flights are generally a lot less than 4 hours duration, the vast majority of destinations from the UK being less than 3 hours and often only just over an hour. So better family provision with tables seems a sensible improvement to seek on the train service: for a start kids like to draw and look out of a bug window, have stories read to them and eat and drink. All much easier with a group of four seats round a decent table.
I might be in the minority but personally I'd rather they got rid of things like tables completely.
Much rather have an option with the maximum number of seats available with reduced fares as a result.
If you want a more premium option, it already exists - it's called LNER and the price of fares on there is recent years is a disgrace, if you ask me, with the new 'simpler fares'.
I'd ever go further and not allow any large luggage on Lumo trains, similar to planes, and charge it as an extra with that paying for a reduction for everyone else.
Much rather have an option with the maximum number of seats available with reduced fares as a result.
If you want a more premium option, it already exists - it's called LNER and the price of fares on there is recent years is a disgrace, if you ask me, with the new 'simpler fares'.
I'd ever go further and not allow any large luggage on Lumo trains, similar to planes, and charge it as an extra with that paying for a reduction for everyone else.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's only one pair of tables per coach and they're in the middle where the seat direction reverses. Thus short of tightening legroom the layout is already as efficient as it can be.