M1 junctions around Watford (no lights)

[Ladder23]

Often wondered why the M1 south of the M25 around Watford is totally unlit.

I drive most nights to and back from London for my work and often wonder, it’s ever so dark and god forbid anyone was to be stranded in the hard shoulder during fog for example its a real danger.

I very vaguely remember lighting around the north Watford junction many years ago and this was very orange, the lighting gantries are still there but haven’t been used for years.

 

[stuu]

Most motorways aren't lit, and there has been a policy of removing it between junctions. It did all used to have lighting, if you go back in time on streetview it seems to have been removed in 2022

 

[Ladder23]

Most motorways aren't lit, and there has been a policy of removing it between junctions. It did all used to have lighting, if you go back in time on streetview it seems to have been removed in 2022

Didn't realise, I will assume a cost saving thing?

 

[stuu]

Didn't realise, I will assume a cost saving thing?

Definitely, although I expect they call it reducing emissions

 

[Hadders]

The M1 was lit all the way from its start at Staples Corner to Junction 19 (the junction with the M6 on the Leicestershire/Northamptonshire border).

Since the early 2010s it's almost all been removed. The lighting stanchions were life expired and required renewal so the Government of the day saved the money.

 

[edwin_m]

I can remember the M1 around Watford back in the 70s having lighting that was suspended from cables strung between poles in the central reservation. I don't recall seeing these anywhere else. It also had concrete pavement and signs warning of tyre noise.

 

[Basil Jet]

I can remember the M1 around Watford back in the 70s having lighting that was suspended from cables strung between poles in the central reservation. I don't recall seeing these anywhere else. It also had concrete pavement and signs warning of tyre noise.

The Great West Road (A4) had them as well, but they seem to be all gone now. Here's Streetview from 2008. https://maps.app.goo.gl/XfZbi8Tt1ijWyYje7

 

[Cloud Strife]

Didn't realise, I will assume a cost saving thing?

Partially, but also because there's no evidence that lights actually help. Junctions need to be lit, but the previous situation where the M1 was bathed in light from the beginning to the M6 was absolutely over the top.

 

[AlterEgo]

I miss the old fashioned catenary stanchions on the southern part of the M1.

 

[edwin_m]

I miss the old fashioned catenary stanchions on the southern part of the M1.

Ah, that sounds like the proper name for what I mentioned upthread! I was thinking of calling them linear headspans.

 

[dosxuk]

There's still a handful of them standing near the M25 junction, but they don't look like they're going to be around much longer.

 

[Bald Rick]

The M1 was lit all the way from its start at Staples Corner to Junction 19 (the junction with the M6 on the Leicestershire/Northamptonshire border).

Since the early 2010s it's almost all been removed. The lighting stanchions were life expired and required renewal so the Government of the day saved the money.

Most of it went with the widening / smart / ALR schemes. Partly it was to save money (on operation / maintenance more than capital cost) but partly it was also because the central reservation is reduced in width to a single concrete barrier, and that precludes having central lighting columns, lartly for space and partly for safety AIUI.

I can remember the M1 around Watford back in the 70s having lighting that was suspended from cables strung between poles in the central reservation. I don't recall seeing these anywhere else. It also had concrete pavement and signs warning of tyre noise.

M25 also had it in the Woking - Staines area.

There's still a handful of them standing near the M25 junction, but they don't look like they're going to be around much longer.

Indeed, there’s some around J6, and it is not in great repair!

 

[Hadders]

Most of it went with the widening / smart / ALR schemes. Partly it was to save money (on operation / maintenance more than capital cost) but partly it was also because the central reservation is reduced in width to a single concrete barrier, and that precludes having central lighting columns, lartly for space and partly for safety AIUI.

That's what I remember - there were years of widening works when they widened the motorway properly up to J10 and then more years as they gradually introduced smart motorways all the way up to J19.

Now the roadworks are all back - J10-13 for smart motorway improvements - I'm hoping this might be a conversion to ALR which would remove the bottleneck southbound at J13 and northbound at J10 when it goes from 4 lane to 3 lane and hard shoulder running when they feel like turning it on. Then there's roadworks between J16-19 to put in more emergency laybys. The only poisitive is the 50mph speed limit is good for my EV range...

 

[Bald Rick]

That's what I remember - there were years of widening works when they widened the motorway properly up to J10 and then more years as they gradually introduced smart motorways all the way up to J19.

Now the roadworks are all back - J10-13 for smart motorway improvements - I'm hoping this might be a conversion to ALR which would remove the bottleneck southbound at J13 and northbound at J10 when it goes from 4 lane to 3 lane and hard shoulder running when they feel like turning it on. Then there's roadworks between J16-19 to put in more emergency laybys. The only poisitive is the 50mph speed limit is good for my EV range...

The J10-13 work is, AIUI, simply to put the concrete barrier in. Its almost finished 10-11a, the rest finishes next year.

I was also hoping it would be switched to ALR, but I assume that the reliability of cars (and drivers!) in the Luton area is such that they need to keep a hard shoulder for all but the busiest times.

 

[Hadders]

The J10-13 work is, AIUI, simply to put the concrete barrier in. Its almost finished 10-11a, the rest finishes next year.

I was also hoping it would be switched to ALR, but I assume that the reliability of cars (and drivers!) in the Luton area is such that they need to keep a hard shoulder for all but the busiest times.

I was hoping they might slip an upgrade in under the radar - it was certainly the original plan as it make no sense at all to have a 4 lane motorway all the way from the M25 to the M6 except for the strect between J10-13. I suppose the inevitable delay means you do get the chance to admire the Bedfordshire countryside and the back of the Amazon and Lidl depots.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I was hoping they might slip an upgrade in under the radar - it was certainly the original plan as it make no sense at all to have a 4 lane motorway all the way from the M25 to the M6 except for the strect between J10-13. I suppose the inevitable delay means you do get the chance to admire the Bedfordshire countryside and the back of the Amazon and Lidl depots.

There'll need to be a change in policy if there are to be more 'smart motorways' / ALR...
nationalhighways.co.uk/our-work/smart-motorways-evidence-stocktake/

In April 2023 the Government cancelled plans for new smart motorways. The decision recognised the lack of public confidence and cost pressures.

This followed a pause in the rollout of new smart motorways previously announced in January 2022.

 

[Hadders]

There'll need to be a change in policy if there are to be more 'smart motorways' / ALR...
nationalhighways.co.uk/our-work/smart-motorways-evidence-stocktake/

I’m aware of that, but J10-13 is already a smart motorway albeit the mark 1 version. It just needs an upgrade to the mark 2 version which would mean a 4 lane continuous motorway from J6a to J19.

If the 3 lane section with occasional hard shoulder running remains after this upgrade then it would be farcical, in my view.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I’m aware of that, but J10-13 is already a smart motorway albeit the mark 1 version. It just needs an upgrade to the mark 2 version which would mean a 4 lane continuous motorway from J6a to J19.

If the 3 lane section with occasional hard shoulder running remains after this upgrade then it would be farcical, in my view.

Of course, yes M1 J10-J13 has Dynamic Hard Shoulder Running (DHS) - I haven't got a huge amount of experience of driving on DHS motorways, but my gut feeling is it's probably the worst of both worlds - sometimes the lane is acting as a hard shoulder, but one that confused or oblivious motorists occasionally end up using as a 'live lane' when they shouldn't.

 

[DelW]

I’m aware of that, but J10-13 is already a smart motorway albeit the mark 1 version. It just needs an upgrade to the mark 2 version which would mean a 4 lane continuous motorway from J6a to J19.

If the 3 lane section with occasional hard shoulder running remains after this upgrade then it would be farcical, in my view.

One of the oddities through that stretch is how short some of the 3-lane sections now are. When the Dunstable northern bypass (now A5) was built, the new junction (11A) with the M1 entailed changing a mile or so of the M1 through the junction to permanent 4-lane running. But that left the adjacent 3-lane sections (11 to 11A and 11A to Toddington services) at only about 0.7 miles long. So after often queuing through the traffic jam that 4 > 3 causes, after less than a mile it goes back 3 > 4 again. Since 0.7 of a mile is less than the distance between safety refuge areas on most smart motorways, those two stretches at least ought to go to permanent 4-lane.

There's also the idiocy of having the variable message signs which are the only warning of the 4 > 3 reduction, located just beyond a blind curve and only about 100m before the lane drop! (From memory, both northbound and southbound at j11 being examples). Occasionally someone in the control room with a modicum of sense puts it up on the advance gantry signs, but not that often.

With the constant switching between 3-lane and 4-lane, it's one of the most confusing stretches of the M1. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen vehicles (often but not always foreign registered lorries) carrying on up the hard shoulder well beyond the point at which it was officially closed off.

 

[Merle Haggard]

With the constant switching between 3-lane and 4-lane, it's one of the most confusing stretches of the M1. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen vehicles (often but not always foreign registered lorries) carrying on up the hard shoulder well beyond the point at which it was officially closed off.

I found this confusing, too, particularly when I am quite sure that I am right in running on the 'hard shoulder' and noticing that nobody else is - it shakes your confidence!
///

The 4 lane widening between J15 and J19 doesn't seem to have achieved the expected result; very few vehicles actually drive in lane 1 and on a Sunday morning Northbound I am often in the situation when I'm safely driving in lane 1 at 65 - 70 with nothing in front of me when I catch up with a car doing 55 - 60 in lane 3 (or even 4). I expect that, if the police were to be about and I overtook on the inside it would be me that would be booked - although there is a new offence (£1,000 max fine) for not keeping to the left-most free lane.
When it was still 3 lanes northbound J15 > J16 then ALR from there many drivers (including UK lorry drivers) who just carried on from lane 1 in the 3 lane to lane 2 in the 4 lane.
The elephant racing between lorries travelling at almost exactly the same speed in lane 1 and 2 on 3 lane stretches has been replaced on the 4 lane sections with lanes 1, 2 and 3 all being occupied by lorries. Inevitably the speed difference between lorries with speed limiters in lane 2 and 3 is minimal (the slightly slower ones are in lane 1) , and congestion is caused by faster vehicles all having to funnel past in lane 4.

 

[Hadders]

One of the oddities through that stretch is how short some of the 3-lane sections now are. When the Dunstable northern bypass (now A5) was built, the new junction (11A) with the M1 entailed changing a mile or so of the M1 through the junction to permanent 4-lane running. But that left the adjacent 3-lane sections (11 to 11A and 11A to Toddington services) at only about 0.7 miles long. So after often queuing through the traffic jam that 4 > 3 causes, after less than a mile it goes back 3 > 4 again. Since 0.7 of a mile is less than the distance between safety refuge areas on most smart motorways, those two stretches at least ought to go to permanent 4-lane.

There's also the idiocy of having the variable message signs which are the only warning of the 4 > 3 reduction, located just beyond a blind curve and only about 100m before the lane drop! (From memory, both northbound and southbound at j11 being examples). Occasionally someone in the control room with a modicum of sense puts it up on the advance gantry signs, but not that often.

With the constant switching between 3-lane and 4-lane, it's one of the most confusing stretches of the M1. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen vehicles (often but not always foreign registered lorries) carrying on up the hard shoulder well beyond the point at which it was officially closed off.

Agree with this. One reason why I'm hoping that this upgrade might actually mean it becomes 4 lanes throughout. The Daily Mail won't be happy but it's just common sense.

The 4 lane widening between J15 and J19 doesn't seem to have achieved the expected result; very few vehicles actually drive in lane 1 and on a Sunday morning Northbound I am often in the situation when I'm safely driving in lane 1 at 65 - 70 with nothing in front of me when I catch up with a car doing 55 - 60 in lane 3 (or even 4). I expect that, if the police were to be about and I overtook on the inside it would be me that would be booked - although there is a new offence (£1,000 max fine) for not keeping to the left-most free lane.
When it was still 3 lanes northbound J15 > J16 then ALR from there many drivers (including UK lorry drivers) who just carried on from lane 1 in the 3 lane to lane 2 in the 4 lane.
The elephant racing between lorries travelling at almost exactly the same speed in lane 1 and 2 on 3 lane stretches has been replaced on the 4 lane sections with lanes 1, 2 and 3 all being occupied by lorries. Inevitably the speed difference between lorries with speed limiters in lane 2 and 3 is minimal (the slightly slower ones are in lane 1) , and congestion is caused by faster vehicles all having to funnel past in lane 4.

My unscientific observation suggests that more traffic is starting to use lane 1. It tends to be car drivers that avoid it rather than lorries.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Agree with this. One reason why I'm hoping that this upgrade might actually mean it becomes 4 lanes throughout. The Daily Mail won't be happy but it's just common sense.

Just one observation about all lanes running - and I don't read the Daily Mail.

Soon after it became ALR I was driving Southbound and, just South of Catthorpe there was a serious crash on the opposite side with one car on its roof and other vehicles scattered across the carriageway. South of that, there were 4 lanes of stationary traffic (i.e., from crash barrier to crash-barrier) all the way back to Watford Gap services. There, attempting to join the Motorway (having come via the A5 and into the Services) was a number of fire engines, police cars and ambulances. With no vacant hard shoulder, there was no way for them to get to the accident, they were all just stuck on the slip road to the Motorway. Anyone trapped would already have been in that situation for some time by then.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course, yes M1 J10-J13 has Dynamic Hard Shoulder Running (DHS) - I haven't got a huge amount of experience of driving on DHS motorways, but my gut feeling is it's probably the worst of both worlds - sometimes the lane is acting as a hard shoulder, but one that confused or oblivious motorists occasionally end up using as a 'live lane' when they shouldn't.

In my view it is the best of both worlds.

It seems that a significant majority of drivers on this section are incapable of reading the signs and/or understanding their meaning. which means that when the hard shoulder is an active lane in the times I use it (mostly Sunday evenings), no ine is in it and I have it to myself, happily passing scores of vehicles.

With the constant switching between 3-lane and 4-lane, it's one of the most confusing stretches of the M1.

I may be a minority, but I don‘t find it confusing at all, and never have.

 

[DelW]

In my view it is the best of both worlds.

It seems that a significant majority of drivers on this section are incapable of reading the signs and/or understanding their meaning. which means that when the hard shoulder is an active lane in the times I use it (mostly Sunday evenings), no ine is in it and I have it to myself, happily passing scores of vehicles.

I may be a minority, but I don‘t find it confusing at all, and never have.

If you only use it when it's four lanes throughout, that's not surprising. It's the frequent switches between three and four lanes that catch people out. Regular users know what to expect, but many drivers aren't regular users.
Plus some of the variable message signs indicating the 4 > 3 change are poorly sited and quite often broken. The overhead signs ought to be used instead in that case, but they rarely seem to be.

 

[Bald Rick]

If you only use it when it's four lanes throughout, that's not surprising. It's the frequent switches between three and four lanes that catch people out. Regular users know what to expect, but many drivers aren't regular users.
Plus some of the variable message signs indicating the 4 > 3 change are poorly sited and quite often broken. The overhead signs ought to be used instead in that case, but they rarely seem to be.

No, I use it at various times of day and week, albeit rarely in the ‘peak’ direction in weekdays (southbound 0630-0900, northbound 1530 -1900 northbound).

 

[Class 800]

I’m aware of that, but J10-13 is already a smart motorway albeit the mark 1 version. It just needs an upgrade to the mark 2 version which would mean a 4 lane continuous motorway from J6a to J19.

If the 3 lane section with occasional hard shoulder running remains after this upgrade then it would be farcical, in my view.

It’s been long confirmed that “no new smart motorways” also means “no conversions”.

See here for an excellently written analysis on why the situation now is the worst of all the worlds, and why, then, this decision was made.

Over on the Society for All British and Irish Road Enthusiasts there has also been extensive discussion.

One thing I very much agree with is that DHS was terribly implemented.

The ambiguity of a blank lane control signal is one of the biggest flaws.

Speed limits should have been shown on the VMS - a key capability of the MS4s - while the AMI lane control signals should show either a downward pointing arrow “lane open” or red X “lane closed”.

 

[PeterY]

Now the roadworks are all back - J10-13 for smart motorway improvements - I'm hoping this might be a conversion to ALR which would remove the bottleneck southbound at J13 and northbound at J10 when it goes from 4 lane to 3 lane and hard shoulder running when they feel like turning it on. Then there's roadworks between J16-19 to put in more emergency laybys. The only poisitive is the 50mph speed limit is good for my EV range...

I often have to drive between Hemel Hempstead and Southend (women eh ) and the M25 isn't much better with 50% of the M25, 1 lane coned off and 50mph. Actually, I do feel safer driving 50mph strangely.

 

[Bald Rick]

A little OT (sorry) but I drove some roadworks on the M74 in Scotland recently, and they had a signed 30mph limit on them, for about 3-4 miles. There was no work going on (well, nothing obvious) but there were average speed cameras. I‘d be interested to know what determines the temporary speed limit through roadworks, as I’ve now seen limits of 30, 40, 50, 60, and 70 (ie NSL) through motorway roadworks just thisyear.

Incidentally, 30mph on a near empty motorway is near impossible to keep to.

 

[Hadders]

A little OT (sorry) but I drove some roadworks on the M74 in Scotland recently, and they had a signed 30mph limit on them, for about 3-4 miles. There was no work going on (well, nothing obvious) but there were average speed cameras. I‘d be interested to know what determines the temporary speed limit through roadworks, as I’ve now seen limits of 30, 40, 50, 60, and 70 (ie NSL) through motorway roadworks just thisyear.

Incidentally, 30mph on a near empty motorway is near impossible to keep to.

Scotland just likes to be different.

A but like the escalators at Glasgow Central that are signed ‘Stand in the Left’.

 

[ABB125]

A little OT (sorry) but I drove some roadworks on the M74 in Scotland recently, and they had a signed 30mph limit on them, for about 3-4 miles. There was no work going on (well, nothing obvious) but there were average speed cameras. I‘d be interested to know what determines the temporary speed limit through roadworks, as I’ve now seen limits of 30, 40, 50, 60, and 70 (ie NSL) through motorway roadworks just thisyear.

Incidentally, 30mph on a near empty motorway is near impossible to keep to.

At that speed you can pretend you're in Italy! I was somewhat surprised by the incredibly slow limit through roadworks on motorways over there (40km/h I seem to remember).

Needless to say, everyone ignores that - pretty sure we never went slower than 80km/h, and were still getting beeped at by the locals!