Making good value tickets hard to buy

[WelshBluebird]

Not that I particularly want to give ideas to the DfT / ToCs so I'm not going to mention the ticket details, but why is it that good value tickets, especially rovers and the like, are made so hard to buy?

Not able to be bought online or via app, not able to be bought via TVM, some members of staff who should be able to sell them have no idea what you are talking about so let you travel for free or make you buy a different, less good value, ticket and even staff who can sell you the ticket end up having to peck at their machine for what feels like hours trying to find the right options.

Only ticket offices have been able to reliably sell me the particular ticket that has prompted me to post this every time I've wanted it, and well now they are being closed.

The cynic in me can't help but feel the powers that be are doing everything possible to hide these kind of tickets / make it harder for people to buy them so they can then be removed in the future under the guise of them not being sold that often.

With my rational hat on, I imagine it is probably just more that because the tickets are sold less often, staff know less about them and they are put further down the lists on staff equipment. But if people who are relatively in the know about these kind of tickets can sometimes struggle to buy them, the general public have no chance so it is essentially a self fulfilling cycle!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Because for most people, (at least in the scheme of things) they're not particularly good value in comparison to the normal fares for the journey people wish to make. Rovers and rangers serve an extremely niche customer base, mainly the enthusiast. Even operators that do promote them, and make them available via a TVM, such as Northern, sell comparatively few. Most passengers just want a simple single or return to wherever they're going. A sizeable demographic would probably shun a rover or ranger ticket even if it was proactively offered to them, unless it was significantly cheaper, people stick to what they know.

The conspiracy around making them deliberately hard to buy etc is just that, a conspiracy. There's no requirement to sell such tickets, they're unregulated and could be withdrawn today if an operator was so inclined. If there was a conspiracy, why wouldn't they just be withdrawn completely?

Also need to take into account that things like delay repay or refunds may be calculated differently - "good value" is in the eye of the beholder, and isn't just price related.

 

[yorkie]

Not that I particularly want to give ideas to the DfT / ToCs so I'm not going to mention the ticket details, but why is it that good value tickets, especially rovers and the like, are made so hard to buy?

Not able to be bought online or via app, not able to be bought via TVM, some members of staff who should be able to sell them have no idea what you are talking about so let you travel for free or make you buy a different, less good value, ticket and even staff who can sell you the ticket end up having to peck at their machine for what feels like hours trying to find the right options.

Only ticket offices have been able to reliably sell me the particular ticket that has prompted me to post this every time I've wanted it, and well now they are being closed.

The cynic in me can't help but feel the powers that be are doing everything possible to hide these kind of tickets / make it harder for people to buy them so they can then be removed in the future under the guise of them not being sold that often.

With my rational hat on, I imagine it is probably just more that because the tickets are sold less often, staff know less about them and they are put further down the lists on staff equipment. But if people who are relatively in the know about these kind of tickets can sometimes struggle to buy them, the general public have no chance so it is essentially a self fulfilling cycle!

All fares should be purchasable online and should be available as e-tickets and/or TOD (as appropriate for the product concerned).

This is more important these days than ever, as the cast majority of customers seem to prefer to buy online these days and ticket offices are closing.

I would also like to see clear instructions at all stations that if the ticket you wish to purchase is not available from the origin, you may board without penalty. Some stations do have such notices (ScotRail seem to perhaps be the best at doing this) but not anywhere near enough.

The current situation is unacceptable and increasingly becoming untenable.

Because for most people, (at least in the scheme of things) they're not particularly good value in comparison to the normal fares for the journey people wish to make. Rovers and rangers serve an extremely niche customer base, mainly the enthusiast. Even operators that do promote them, and make them available via a TVM, such as Northern, sell comparatively few. Most passengers just want a simple single or return to wherever they're going. A sizeable demographic would probably shun a rover or ranger ticket even if it was proactively offered to them, unless it was significantly cheaper, people stick to what they know.

Not true; a Derbyshire Wayfarer is an excellent value ticket which the forums site would sell by default for many journeys using the length of its validity, if we were able to.

The conspiracy around making them deliberately hard to buy etc is just that, a conspiracy. There's no requirement to sell such tickets, they're unregulated and could be withdrawn today if an operator was so inclined. If there was a conspiracy, why wouldn't they just be withdrawn completely?

Also need to take into account that things like delay repay or refunds may be calculated differently - "good value" is in the eye of the beholder, and isn't just price related.

As for talk of a conspiracy, you are the one who has brought that term up. I will ask you this; if the rail industry wants them to be widely available, why haven't they?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Because for most people, (at least in the scheme of things) they're not particularly good value in comparison to the normal fares for the journey people wish to make. Rovers and rangers serve an extremely niche customer base, mainly the enthusiast. Even operators that do promote them, and make them available via a TVM, such as Northern, sell comparatively few. Most passengers just want a simple single or return to wherever they're going. A sizeable demographic would probably shun a rover or ranger ticket even if it was proactively offered to them, unless it was significantly cheaper, people stick to what they know.

The thing is, I'm not sure I agree with that. Again trying to be as vague as possible, but the ticket I am thinking of very much is not niche and if more people knew about it and were able to easily buy it then more people would buy it. Hell it is actually a fair bit cheaper than regular returns for some of the journeys it is valid for and even where it isn't, the additional validity is something that a significant number of passengers currently pay extra for anyway.

 

[Titfield]

The thing is, I'm not sure I agree with that. Again trying to be as vague as possible, but the ticket I am thinking of very much is not niche and if more people knew about it and were able to easily buy it then more people would buy it. Hell it is actually a fair bit cheaper than regular returns for some of the journeys it is valid for and even where it isn't, the additional validity is something that a significant number of passengers currently pay extra for anyway.

Please name the ticket then so we can test what happens? Will the TOC - who some posters seem to believe are evil personified - withdraw it OR will sales go up as a result of it being mentioned on here.

Thank you.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

The Derbyshare Wayfarer ticket (Only available at the ticket office or from a bus driver) is cheaper than a day return from Burton on Trent to Sheffield or Chesterfield, Edale, Grindleford etc. The ticket is popular with Peak District walkers and tourists. Rangers are not just for enthusiasts. The point of the ticket is to reduce road traffic in the congested peak district. Trouble is I am finding it hard to buy nowdays from Burton on Trent ticket office as you do not when the office is open. The opening hours published online are not correct so you can turn up at the station and find the office shut and then you are stuffed. Local walking clubs are now using the car to save them the anxiety of not being able to get the Wayfarer.

So when a passenger used to ask at Burton for a Day Return to Sheffield, Chesterfield or Matlock the ticket office always sold them a Wayfarer as its cheaper. More importantly, the ticket has no afternoon Crosscountry priced (BX) peak restriction.

 

[yorkie]

The Derbyshare Wayfarer ticket (Only available at the ticket office or from a bus driver) is cheaper than a day return from Burton on Trent to Sheffield or Chesterfield, Edale, Grindleford etc. The ticket is popular with Peak District walkers and tourists. Rangers are not just for enthusiasts. The point of the ticket is to reduce road traffic in the congested peak district. Trouble is I am finding it hard to buy nowdays from Burton on Trent ticket office as you do not when the office is open. The opening hours published online are not correct so you can turn up at the station and find the office shut and then you are stuffed. Local walking clubs are now using the car to save them the anxiety of not being able to get the Wayfarer.

So when a passenger used to ask at Burton for a Day Return to Sheffield, Chesterfield or Matlock the ticket office always sold them a Wayfarer as its cheaper. More importantly, the ticket has no afternoon Crosscountry priced (BX) peak restriction.

Evening restrictions from Burton don't apply to any of those destinations (they do to Derby, but the Anytime fare is less than a Wayfarer in that case) but other than that, your post is absolutely spot on.

 

[Typhoon]

Not that I particularly want to give ideas to the DfT / ToCs so I'm not going to mention the ticket details, but why is it that good value tickets, especially rovers and the like, are made so hard to buy?

Not able to be bought online or via app, not able to be bought via TVM, some members of staff who should be able to sell them have no idea what you are talking about so let you travel for free or make you buy a different, less good value, ticket and even staff who can sell you the ticket end up having to peck at their machine for what feels like hours trying to find the right options.

Only ticket offices have been able to reliably sell me the particular ticket that has prompted me to post this every time I've wanted it, and well now they are being closed.

Seeing this prompted me to look at my local TOC (SouthEastern) - there is one but I have never seen it on posters. All I see are invitations to spend a day at the seaside - I'm already there, it is 5 minutes away (Southern Water permitting) - or historic Rochester (been there, exhausted it). If I was younger I would have used it from time to time. Checking other TOCs whose services I use, there is another Rover I haven't seen advertised that I would take advantage of. Most just don't seem promoted when they would get people on to the trains for what is essentially discretionary travel.

And with reference to #2, I am not an enthusiast (I know what Southern Region 4001 & 4002 were, that is it), I used to use weekly Rovers to get around the Midlands, a couple of days walking - Shropshire and Malvern hills, the other days less arduous places - Crich once, Matlock, Stratford, Oxford, Cheltenham for a day's cricket. It was a holiday from home. It must have been promoted I wouldn't have known about it otherwise. I think there was a leaflet with the maps in, that I used to carry round with me to make sure I didn't stray. Freedom of Devon & Cornwall period tickets would be ideal if I lived nearer. As @Sniffingmoose says, ideal for walkers, you don't need to return to the place you started at and, if you are tired after the walk, no stress with driving (as well as no need to find a parking place).

Trouble is I am finding it hard to buy nowdays from Burton on Trent ticket office as you do not when the office is open. The opening hours published online are not correct so you can turn up at the station and find the office shut and then you are stuffed.

Not just Burton I can assure you!

 

[Llandudno]

The Derbyshare Wayfarer ticket (Only available at the ticket office or from a bus driver) is cheaper than a day return from Burton on Trent to Sheffield or Chesterfield, Edale, Grindleford etc. The ticket is popular with Peak District walkers and tourists. Rangers are not just for enthusiasts. The point of the ticket is to reduce road traffic in the congested peak district. Trouble is I am finding it hard to buy nowdays from Burton on Trent ticket office as you do not when the office is open. The opening hours published online are not correct so you can turn up at the station and find the office shut and then you are stuffed. Local walking clubs are now using the car to save them the anxiety of not being able to get the Wayfarer.

So when a passenger used to ask at Burton for a Day Return to Sheffield, Chesterfield or Matlock the ticket office always sold them a Wayfarer as its cheaper. More importantly, the ticket has no afternoon Crosscountry priced (BX) peak restriction.

You can buy scratch off Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets in advance with an expiry date of 31 December 2024.
There aren’t too many outlets stocking them, best check on Derbyshire CC website for nearest stockist.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The Derbyshare Wayfarer ticket (Only available at the ticket office or from a bus driver) is cheaper than a day return from Burton on Trent to Sheffield or Chesterfield, Edale, Grindleford etc. The ticket is popular with Peak District walkers and tourists. Rangers are not just for enthusiasts. The point of the ticket is to reduce road traffic in the congested peak district. Trouble is I am finding it hard to buy nowdays from Burton on Trent ticket office as you do not when the office is open. The opening hours published online are not correct so you can turn up at the station and find the office shut and then you are stuffed. Local walking clubs are now using the car to save them the anxiety of not being able to get the Wayfarer.

So when a passenger used to ask at Burton for a Day Return to Sheffield, Chesterfield or Matlock the ticket office always sold them a Wayfarer as its cheaper. More importantly, the ticket has no afternoon Crosscountry priced (BX) peak restriction.

You missed TVMs

Not that I particularly want to give ideas to the DfT / ToCs so I'm not going to mention the ticket details, but why is it that good value tickets, especially rovers and the like, are made so hard to buy?

Not able to be bought online or via app, not able to be bought via TVM, some members of staff who should be able to sell them have no idea what you are talking about so let you travel for free or make you buy a different, less good value, ticket and even staff who can sell you the ticket end up having to peck at their machine for what feels like hours trying to find the right options.

Only ticket offices have been able to reliably sell me the particular ticket that has prompted me to post this every time I've wanted it, and well now they are being closed.

The cynic in me can't help but feel the powers that be are doing everything possible to hide these kind of tickets / make it harder for people to buy them so they can then be removed in the future under the guise of them not being sold that often.

With my rational hat on, I imagine it is probably just more that because the tickets are sold less often, staff know less about them and they are put further down the lists on staff equipment. But if people who are relatively in the know about these kind of tickets can sometimes struggle to buy them, the general public have no chance so it is essentially a self fulfilling cycle!

Rovers are available online and at TVMs, as long as you live in the best part of the country

 

[Jim the Jim]

The systems are set up for single/return trips between specific stations, often forcing you to choose a particular itinerary as well. Tickets that give you more freedom aren't well suited to that sort of booking mechanism and the retailers probably can't be bothered to make the necessary adjustments.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think there needs to be distinction drawn between PTE tickets which just happen to be set up as a ranger type ticket for convenience of existing systems and actual rail ranger/rover products the rail industry offers commercially. The former do usually offer good value to the passenger, although mainly because they are essentially subsidised by the relevant local authority for the greater local good.

TOCs selling PTE "rangers" are essentially just authorised resellers, and it wouldn't be their call on how to market or advertise these products even if they wanted to. I suspect these products don't have too long left in any event, as account based ticketing / PAYG caps become more affordable to implement. The demise of the Travelcard in London will probably be an interesting case study in many other areas.

 

[infobleep]

You missed TVMs


Rovers are available online and at TVMs, as long as you live in the best part of the country

Is that the 'drier side of Britain' to quote a London & North Eastern Railway poster slogan?

 

[12LDA28C]

The conspiracy around making them deliberately hard to buy etc is just that, a conspiracy. There's no requirement to sell such tickets, they're unregulated and could be withdrawn today if an operator was so inclined. If there was a conspiracy, why wouldn't they just be withdrawn completely?

I'd be interested to know how that would work. Most multi-day Rover tickets are valid for multiple operators' trains so even if one TOC decided to withdraw them, they would still be valid on others unless all the relevant TOCs got together and conspired to stop selling a particular Rover and/or permitting its use. Even if a specific TOC stopped selling them, they can be bought at any main line ticket office so little would be achieved by doing that.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'd be interested to know how that would work. Most multi-day Rover tickets are valid for multiple operators' trains so even if one TOC decided to withdraw them, they would still be valid on others unless all the relevant TOCs got together and conspired to stop selling a particular Rover and/or permitting its use. Even if a specific TOC stopped selling them, they can be bought at any main line ticket office so little would be achieved by doing that.

That is not correct.

Each fare, including for a ranger/rover has a sponsoring TOC who is liable and responsible for managing that product, and agreeing validity (and split of revenue) with other TOCs (if any at all). That is the Lead TOC. No other TOC has to agree to accept the product in the first place.

If the Lead TOC removes a product or fare that isn't regulated, that's the end of the matter. The product disappears.

The other remaining TOCs could decide to set up a new ranger or rover to replace it if they wanted, but they'd have to start again and negotiate with the other TOCs around acceptance and revenue apportionment, but there would still be one TOC in charge.

The exception is the All Line Rover which is managed by RDG, albeit in a similar way.

 

[yorkie]

That is not correct.

Each fare, including for a ranger/rover has a sponsoring TOC who is liable and responsible for managing that product, and agreeing validity (and split of revenue) with other TOCs (if any at all). That is the Lead TOC. No other TOC has to agree to accept the product in the first place.

If the Lead TOC removes a product or fare that isn't regulated, that's the end of the matter. The product disappears.

The other remaining TOCs could decide to set up a new ranger or rover to replace it if they wanted, but they'd have to start again and negotiate with the other TOCs around acceptance and revenue apportionment, but there would still be one TOC in charge.

The exception is the All Line Rover which is managed by RDG, albeit in a similar way.

Do you have anything stating this in writing which can be quoted?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Do you have anything stating this in writing which can be quoted?

Not for consumption on this forum.

It is handled via the PAF (Product Advisory Form) process.

 

[yorkie]

Not for consumption on this forum.

It is handled via the PAF process.

Yes I'm aware of the PAF process but do you have anything to say that one TOC could unilaterally abolish a long standing Rover product? Do you have any examples of this occurring?

 

[kkong]

Yes I'm aware of the PAF process but do you have anything to say that one TOC could unilaterally abolish a long standing Rover product? Do you have any examples of this occurring?

It's not quite the same, but ScotRail withdrew various Scottish rover tickets from sale during the pandemic.

 

[Deerfold]

I think there needs to be distinction drawn between PTE tickets which just happen to be set up as a ranger type ticket for convenience of existing systems and actual rail ranger/rover products the rail industry offers commercially. The former do usually offer good value to the passenger, although mainly because they are essentially subsidised by the relevant local authority for the greater local good.

I don't know about other PTEs, but in West Yorkshire the MCard range of day and longer season tickets for buses or trains or buses and trains received no subsidy until the day bus only ticket was recently reduced to £4.50 from between £5.00 up to £6.70 depending where you bought it and how many you bought. No other ticket (including all the ones valid on trains) receives a subsidy.

TOCs selling PTE "rangers" are essentially just authorised resellers, and it wouldn't be their call on how to market or advertise these products even if they wanted to. I suspect these products don't have too long left in any event, as account based ticketing / PAYG caps become more affordable to implement. The demise of the Travelcard in London will probably be an interesting case study in many other areas.

Former PTE Tickets in West Yorkshire and Manchester are managed by companies whose shareholders are the local PTE and rail and bus operators.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Yes I'm aware of the PAF process but do you have anything to say that one TOC could unilaterally abolish a long standing Rover product? Do you have any examples of this occurring?

It's not occurred recently as far as I know, although one or two products have had revenue allocations adjusted following certain TOCs complaining. An InterCity TOC declined to participate in a new ranger/rover 2-3 years ago.

They're just so little used that they don't cause any issues day to day, nobody is looking at them in any detail. Unless something happens, like the Lord Adonis promotion of the All Line Rover, these products just keep on existing. There's no incentive to do anything to or against them. The other issue historically was that rangers and rovers needed to follow a different process around fare changes etc, it couldn't be done directly by the TOC and needed Worldline to make these adjustments directly in a database. Things are slightly better around that now, but again, it was more hassle to do anything with these products than just leave them be.

A TOC is free to unilaterally withdraw any unregulated product that they set the fare for, unless there is a franchise/concession commitment specifying they offer or enter into such a special offer/arrangement for the duration of that agreement. It's no different to any other unregulated fare type.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Yes I'm aware of the PAF process but do you have anything to say that one TOC could unilaterally abolish a long standing Rover product? Do you have any examples of this occurring?

It's in Chapter 4 of the TSA. The mandatory requirement is for a TOC to maintain at least one interavailable unrestricted fare for each flow for which they are Lead Operator. In practice they then also have to maintain those fares which are regulated in their contract (formerly the Franchise Agreement). Outside of this there is no regulatory requirement to maintain any other fare in perpetuity or for the duration of a contract - Rovers and Rangers included.

In practice Rovers and Rangers are generally sufficiently below the radar so as not to be worth worrying about unduly. The irony of seeking to publicise a particular Rover or Ranger which may (for whatever historic reason) undercut a number of regular fares is that it is probably the single quickest way to ensure that it is repriced or killed off...

 

[CyrusWuff]

In practice Rovers and Rangers are generally sufficiently below the radar so as not to be worth worrying about unduly. The irony of seeking to publicise a particular Rover or Ranger which may (for whatever historic reason) undercut a number of regular fares is that it is probably the single quickest way to ensure that it is repriced or killed off...

Or have restrictions added when the SoS for Transport spends a week "doing" an All Line Rover and extolling its virtues...

 

[DeverseSam]

The Germans don’t find these products niche as they happily roam the country for 49 per month!

 

[plugwash]

I suspect the intent of the sales restrictions on the Southern daysave was to sell cheap days out to people on the south coast (either living there or staying on holiday there) while discouraging rich people from in/near London from buying it.

 

[yorkie]

The Germans don’t find these products niche as they happily roam the country for 49 per month!

Sadly the mindset in the UK is very poor in comparison to many other countries, which have far better networks and area based products valid for use on those networks, such as Germany (among others).

This thread highlights how weak regulation is, and how we need to get much more regulation, not less regulation as the TOCs want. Some of the comments in this thread, if true, are deeply concerning.

It's in Chapter 4 of the TSA. The mandatory requirement is for a TOC to maintain at least one interavailable unrestricted fare for each flow for which they are Lead Operator. In practice they then also have to maintain those fares which are regulated in their contract (formerly the Franchise Agreement). Outside of this there is no regulatory requirement to maintain any other fare in perpetuity or for the duration of a contract - Rovers and Rangers included.

If everything in Chapter 4 applies, can you divulge who sets a North East Rover, what flow does this relate to?

If it's so easy for a particular TOC to abolish a longstanding Rover/Ranger product, why doesn't this happen?

In practice Rovers and Rangers are generally sufficiently below the radar so as not to be worth worrying about unduly. The irony of seeking to publicise a particular Rover or Ranger which may (for whatever historic reason) undercut a number of regular fares is that it is probably the single quickest way to ensure that it is repriced or killed off...

This paragraph shows how important it is that existing products are protected; we need to ensure that anti-passenger TOCs can't remove long standing legacy products such as pre-existing Day Ranger, Rover products as well as Railcards etc. I find it deeply worrying if there is no protection of such products. This is very wrong if true.

But if it really is true I am surprised it's not been done yet.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I suspect the intent of the sales restrictions on the Southern daysave was to sell cheap days out to people on the south coast (either living there or staying on holiday there) while discouraging rich people from in/near London from buying it.

Southern's 'Daysave' is created as a 'System Pass' in the Special Fares schedule of the TSA. and the limitations on how it is sold are a requirement of fares sold under this category. It was created before Southern was folded into the GTR contract hence why the 'system' in question is just the Southern one.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Sadly the mindset in the UK is very poor in comparison to many other countries, which have far better networks and area based products valid for use on those networks, such as Germany (among others).

This thread highlights how weak regulation is, and how we need to get much more regulation, not less regulation as the TOCs want. Some of the comments in this thread, if true, are deeply concerning.

If everything in Chapter 4 applies, can you divulge who sets a North East Rover, what flow does this relate to?

If it's so easy for a particular TOC to abolish a longstanding Rover/Ranger product, why doesn't this happen?

This paragraph shows how important it is that existing products are protected; we need to ensure that anti-passenger TOCs can't remove long standing legacy products such as pre-existing Day Ranger, Rover products as well as Railcards etc. I find it deeply worrying if there is no protection of such products. This is very wrong if true.

But if it really is true I am surprised it's not been done yet.

Northern set the North East Rover fare and control the product.

As I mentioned above, the concept of a "flow" differs with a Ranger/Rover anyway, as how fares are created and maintained for a ranger/rover historically required a different process internally.

As above, it is very easy to remove a ranger or rover product, but for the paperwork, internal comms and odd complaint that would come in, it really isn't worth the hassle for such small quantities. There's lots of unregulated fares and anomalies that are known about and left until they become problematic enough that someone actually needs to do something. With everything else a Pricing Manager has to do, this is bottom of the list stuff.

You seem to be complaining that there is no regulation of deliberately unregulated products? These products are not protected intentionally.

Railcards are not protected technically either, however all recent franchise/DfT National Rail/concession agreements have mandated participation in certain Railcards schemes - which makes acceptance of some newer Railcards optional. These scheme requirements can be erased at a stroke by a civil servant amending a contract, they aren't protected products. (The Disabled Railcard may have some additional protections via ORR requirements for disabled people).

 

[yorkie]

Northern set the North East Rover fare and control the product.

So why don't Northern just abolish it immediately?

As I mentioned above, the concept of a "flow" differs with a Ranger/Rover anyway, as how fares are created and maintained for a ranger/rover historically required a different process internally.

Indeed; you can't follow Chapter 4 of the TSA in relation of Rover products as it doesn't make sense in that context.

As above, it is very easy to remove a ranger or rover product, but for the paperwork, internal comms and odd complaint that would come in, it really isn't worth the hassle for such small quantities.

If it's that easy and just needs some paper work and putting up with an odd complaint, I don't see why they wouldn't have already done it, given everything you've said.

There's lots of unregulated fares and anomalies that are known about and left until they become problematic enough that someone actually needs to do something. With everything else a Pricing Manager has to do, this is bottom of the list stuff.

You seem to be complaining that there is no regulation of deliberately unregulated products? These products are not protected intentionally.

Railcards are not protected technically either, however all recent franchise/DfT National Rail/concession agreements have mandated participation in certain Railcards schemes - which makes acceptance of some newer Railcards optional. These scheme requirements can be erased at a stroke by a civil servant amending a contract, they aren't protected products. (The Disabled Railcard may have some additional protections via ORR requirements for disabled people).

Of course these products should be protected; the fact that people are saying it is easy for them to be abolished, in some cases unilaterally by a single TOC, is deeply worrying.

Feel free to continue to go round in circles if you want, but if you can't see the points being made, that's your loss.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Sadly the mindset in the UK is very poor in comparison to many other countries, which have far better networks and area based products valid for use on those networks, such as Germany (among others).

This thread highlights how weak regulation is, and how we need to get much more regulation, not less regulation as the TOCs want. Some of the comments in this thread, if true, are deeply concerning.

If everything in Chapter 4 applies, can you divulge who sets a North East Rover, what flow does this relate to?

Regulation is needed in an open market situation dominated by a few established players and where the barriers to entry are high. That described briefly the original 1995 model of privatisation, but what we have now (and have had effectively for may years) is a state run industry. That is not going to be made the subject of the kind of regulation you are seeking. It does desperately need an effective industry-wide management structure that stop the haphazard management of fares by TOCs, but ultimately the industry needs to have control of the product structure subject to political and economic targets, in the same way that British Rail (not the Ministry of Transport) managed rail fares and products in the past.

The North East Rover is one of a handful of regional Rovers that pre-date privatisation (the Heart of England rover is another) and they are real oddities because there is no proper ownership record of their creation .It comes under Northern for management purposes and the OLR TOCs (LNER, Northern, TPE) undoubtedly have a controlling interest in the North East Rover, and if they wanted could force a change or abolish it. However, they have so many other things on their plate right now that there is zero risk of this happening anytime soon.

I concur with your call for better network and area based products. That will not however come from regulating the existing inconsistent hotch-potch of Rovers and Rangers, and the TOC structure is supremely unsuited to this (Scotrail and TfW excepted due to their national and geographic alignment). It is however one of the potential beneficial outcomes from re-stablishing proper sector-level publicly accountable arms length management of the product structure at a remove from Whitehall, (whether you call it GBR or something else).

Indeed; you can't follow Chapter 4 of the TSA in relation of Rover products as it doesn't make sense in that context.

It (like Travelcards and zonal products) is set up as a 'pseudo flow'. These still have to follow the principle that for the product to exist a flow must exist, it just isn't in this case a specific origin - route - destination