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Malky Mackay apologises for "disrespectful" messages
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Butts
Veteran Member
Has anyone actually seen the content of these messages ?
Is the term "chink" any different from "paddy" or "jock" or "taff" ?
It all comes down to context.
A text message is a private conversation between two individuals. If it doesn't offend neither party, is it offensive?
RichmondCommu
Established Member
That is completely irrelevant. If the word Paki is used in a text message between two individuals it's still wrong!
Butts
Veteran Member
Who judges whether it is wrong or not , Paki is short for Pakistani, Scot is short for Scotsman - the difference
Malky has had to eat humble pie due to the hysteria displayed by the media in relation to these sort of cases.
Quite similar to "the slope" on the bridge incident involving Clarkson.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Who judges whether it is wrong or not , Paki is short for Pakistani, Scot is short for Scotsman - the difference
With regard to the first of these two words that you have named above, many Indian and Sri Lankan people in Britain today, in racial verbal usage aimed at them, are called by this "blanket" generic name as an insult by certain white people who appear to be totally ignorant of any differences.....which is far more annoying to them...:roll:
The LMS had a fleet of locomotives called "Royal Scots" but I am unsure if there ever has been any classes of locomotives in the Indian sub-continent with that other name in its description such as the "Flying ****"....
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Yes it is wrong, I never disputed that. However it is not offensive in context unless it causes offence to a recipient.
If there is one word that really winds me up, that word is "banter". It is constantly used to "excuse" immature, offensive, thoughtless, tasteless remarks, as if being said in a "light-hearted" way makes them acceptable. OK, so Mackay is a good manager, and no one should lose their potential for employment over private remarks. But his judgement must be seriously questionable, and if he is seen to put into practice or be influenced in his work by any of the attitudes he has expressed here, then he should be a pariah. Football, bloody hell!
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Who judges whether it is wrong or not , Paki is short for Pakistani, Scot is short for Scotsman - the difference
I really hope that you have posted this in order to seek attention and get a reaction rather than anything more sinister.
However, if you really do believe in what you have posted then that is an absolute disgrace and you should be ashamed. My wife is Asian with her parents having been born in India and to be called a Paki is nothing short of racial abuse. Fortunately such incidents are few and far between but never the less they are very hurtful when they do occur.
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Thats completely irrelevant. All that matters are the opinions that individual has towards to ethnic minorities or indeed gays, Jews and members of the opposite sex. As a country we need to do more to challenge these views and opinions.
hairyhandedfool
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I think this conversation is veering dangerously off thread, but there are many aspects to this and I don't think it is the place of one person to determine what another person thinks is offensive.
Ask 1000 people what words offend them and you will get 1000 different answers. If you deemed that any word, which offended even one person, was offensive, it would start to become quite difficult to communicate.
Butts
Veteran Member
I agree that if you are Indian being called a Paki would be an affront to some people. It is the same for people from Scotland or Wales being called English when they go abroad. It is down to ignorance not malice.
My contention is that if someone is from Pakistan , Paki is not an offensive abbreviation of their race.
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However the media seem to disagree with you , where do they source their list of what in their view is acceptable or not ?
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Must be a brummie in exile :P. The good thing about us having finished is that I can listen to the 3pm games without risk of a heart attack
50 Years of Match of the Day and I suspect your snore draw will have the honour of being on last
bb21
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It may be an abbreviation. That is not the problem for many people. It is a word historically used to refer to a section of the population in a derogatory manner and carries a negative tone, and I suspect that is the main reason why many people find it offensive. Some words have evolved through history to carry such meanings and they convey prejudice and bias towards a section of the community, so should not be used under normal circumstances, in public or in private, unless the person wants to express feelings along those lines.
If you don't believe me, tell me when you ever used words such as "paki", "chink", "jap" or "******" in a positive way when referring to others?
Calling a Scotsman English is totally different. It may be annoying, but it is not offensive because it is not a word (always) with a negative connotation.
I digress.
hairyhandedfool
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The media will print/broadcast any story that gets them attention. Their idea of what is or is not acceptable is hardly unbiased.
Butts
Veteran Member
I think we have all digressed as this is supposed to be the Football Forum.
However as a closing contribution I will put forward an occasion when one of the abbreviations is used in a positive light - particularly in Scotland. When referring to a Chinese Restaurant or Takeaway the phrase....
"That's a good Chinky " is common parlance. - if that can be construed as offensive heaven help us
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
All that I will finally say upon this matter is to ask the forum members involved on this debate to listen to the words of the song "Melting Pot" that was recorded by Blue Mink quite some years ago.
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RichmondCommu
Established Member
If you honestly believe that the word Paki is never said with malice, menace or indeed racial hater age then that is quite frankly disgusting. In such cases the abuser doesn't give a toss as to which part of the Indian sub- continent their victim is from.
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I think we have all digressed as this is supposed to be the Football Forum.
Are you familiar with football's "Kick It Out" campaign which is doing good work in ridding the beautiful game of racism? I hardly think that warrants a
However as a closing contribution I will put forward an occasion when one of the abbreviations is used in a positive light - particularly in Scotland. When referring to a Chinese Restaurant or Takeaway the phrase....
"That's a good Chinky " is common parlance. - if that can be construed as offensive heaven help us
Are you seriously suggesting that referring to a person of Chinese descent as being a "Chinky" is done in a positive light? What's positive about that? Your views on race relations in this country are nothing short of depressing.
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If you honestly believe that the word Paki is never said with malice, menace or indeed racial hater age then that is quite frankly disgusting. In such cases the abuser doesn't give a toss as to which part of the Indian sub- continent their victim is from.
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Are you familiar with football's "Kick It Out" campaign which is doing good work in ridding the beautiful game of racism? I hardly think that warrants a
Are you seriously suggesting that referring to a person of Chinese descent as being a "Chinky" is done in a positive light? What's positive about that? Your views on race relations in this country are nothing short of depressing.
I'm sorry I have to disagree with you on some elements.
I have a number of friends of different races, and they quite openly refer to people of their own race in such slangs.
I have three good friends of African origin and they openly greet each other in public as well as privately with "Alright my n*gg**"
such use of language only becomes offensive in the wrong context or to the wrong audience.
A conversation between two close friends in private text messages is between those individuals and if it does not offend the audience it is not deemed offensive by true definition
MidnightFlyer
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Indeed, offence can only ever be taken, it's an impossibility to give it. At school a lot of my Asian friends never used to mind the term P*ki, whether a white person or another Asian said it to them, just so long as it was said light-heatedly; similarly I didn't really have a problem with them using derogatory terms for my background or heritage, so long as once again it wasn't used as a put down. They could say all they wanted to me for all I, and a lot of my other white classmates, cared.
I do genuinely believe that if everyone who has ever said anything sexist / racist / homophobic in a private conversation or message with another friend was fired then unemployment would be around 90%. If you were to only include people who genuinely meant it in a malicious and definite matter than I honestly think you'd spot no changes at all.
I do genuinely believe that if everyone who has ever said anything sexist / racist / homophobic in a private conversation or message with another friend was fired then unemployment would be around 90%. If you were to only include people who genuinely meant it in a malicious and definite matter than I honestly think you'd spot no changes at all.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
If a stranger was to refer to my wife as a Paki to another individual would that be wrong? I think my wife would have an interesting view on "true definition". Is it the audience's fault that they are the wrong audience? Is it right that Malky MacKay mocks black people even if it was a private text message? How can anyone else define context? How would black football players feel if he was to become their manager?
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What a happy school environment that must have made for. Fortunately for my wife and I things were very different when we were at school (we are now in our mid 40's. The same goes for our teenage children who of course are mixed race.
Do you have any evidence to back up your argument or is this all based on your own experiences? Is it right that people have sexist, racist, homophobic prejudices even if those individuals hope that they remain private?
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MidnightFlyer
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It wasn't really a bad environment, I think there was a genuine reciprocity between people to say things. Obviously some people did mind being called something, so you wouldn't do it to them; and of course we all grew up understanding that you don't judge or hate a person based on stuff like sexuality or race. That's the way it went.
Regarding your second point, that is what I believe. So long as Mackay, or indeed anyone else, does not act or incite in reality these opinions (e.g. not playing an African player because he is black) then it is the business of himself and the recipient, and himself and the recipient alone what he says. What other people say of you in private or outwith your authority is none of your business. If people on here PM each other saying 'I f***ing hate MidnightFlyer, the Hun / Proddy / Caucasian ******' then I don't have a problem with that: it would only be if they physically instigated violence or practiced that hate that it becomes an issue.
Butts
Veteran Member
I think people are far to sensitive today with regard to a lot of the issues we have been discussing.
I suppose this is a sign of progress to some, as people in less developed societies have more urgent matters to be anxious about - ie where their next meal is coming from is of greater importance than some affected slight.
One example of this is the hysteria generated by anyone dressing up in second world war German uniforms at a fancy dress party. Attilla the Hun is seemingly perfectly acceptable despite his predilection to genocide.
I suppose this is a sign of progress to some, as people in less developed societies have more urgent matters to be anxious about - ie where their next meal is coming from is of greater importance than some affected slight.
One example of this is the hysteria generated by anyone dressing up in second world war German uniforms at a fancy dress party. Attilla the Hun is seemingly perfectly acceptable despite his predilection to genocide.
Football fans get away with using the above word with impunity.
This is all about saving face, not about being racist/sexist/homophobic etc.
The content of a private message is not for public interest, debunking many people's arguments on here that the nature of the message is immaterial.
In this case, the media deemed it to be of public interest, hence the publication of the story and the apologising later.
People are demonising a man for saying sorry publicly, something which they do with great aplomb from their comfy armchairs having never and probably never will experience the intense pressure of being under the media spotlight.
This is all about saving face, not about being racist/sexist/homophobic etc.
The content of a private message is not for public interest, debunking many people's arguments on here that the nature of the message is immaterial.
In this case, the media deemed it to be of public interest, hence the publication of the story and the apologising later.
People are demonising a man for saying sorry publicly, something which they do with great aplomb from their comfy armchairs having never and probably never will experience the intense pressure of being under the media spotlight.
Surely being under the media spotlight means they should be even more careful about what they say and write? Is anything really private when you are working in a high profile position, scrutinised daily by both fans and media alike?
Malky Mackay was naïve at best, hopelessly out of touch with modern sensitivites, and whatever happens in the future, he will not come out of this well, rightly or wrongly.
Malky Mackay was naïve at best, hopelessly out of touch with modern sensitivites, and whatever happens in the future, he will not come out of this well, rightly or wrongly.
But he's apologised for it and admitted he was naive and made a mistake. One thing that most people on here seem to revel in is that they seemingly never make a mistake or have made a mistake, yourself included. I have made similar gaffes, but never been called racist.
It also seems that those doling out the accusations are out of touch with modern sensitivities too.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
When the urban riots in the large city areas occurred a few years ago, this was said to be one of the communication links between different groups intent upon causing mayhem.
You'll notice I didn't say he was racist. My reply was to your comment about being under the pressure of a media spotlight, and I still don't see that as a valid excuse for what he did. As I say, people in these positions must realise that they are seen as role models and so need to be very careful about anything they say or write, as several high profile football people have already discovered to their cost with unguarded remarks.
I also don't know what the long term repercussions will be, but I certainly agree that he made a mistake. I wouldn't bar him working in football or anywhere else on the strength of this, but the real question is whether employers will want to take on a man in a high profile role when his judgement is questionable? His apology is to be welcomed, but an apology is not sufficient to make good in every instance.
Of course I have made mistakes. I live with the consequences of some of them every day. Others have to live with the consequences of theirs too, and that includes Malky.
That depends. If the devices were personal, i.e. paid for by Mackay and whoever they were talking to then yes, you are probably right. If they were issued by the club, the club has every right to look at what you have been sending, in the same way an employer has the right to look at your web history on a work computer.
Personally, I don't think Mackay will work in British football again, perhaps an Arab or Russian club will through millions at him.
EM2
Established Member
You do realise that the player that Mackay was referring to was not Chinese, but was, in fact, Korean?However as a closing contribution I will put forward an occasion when one of the abbreviations is used in a positive light - particularly in Scotland. When referring to a Chinese Restaurant or Takeaway the phrase....
"That's a good Chinky " is common parlance. - if that can be construed as offensive heaven help us
You can't see how that is offensive?
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