Manage For Attendance Query

[Max11]

If a member of staff has to have time off ie go sick, due to an injury picked up at work, ie a back injury, can they be put on an MFA (manage for attendance) stage?

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I’ve known a driver involved in a fatality being put on stage one due to time off after the incident

So anything is possible but it probably depends on the company and how strong the union is there

 

[RJ]

If a member of staff has to have time off ie go sick, due to an injury picked up at work, ie a back injury, can they be put on an MFA (manage for attendance) stage?

MFA is purely about attendance so it doesn’t matter why you’re off work. If their absence triggers MFA then their manager can put them on it at their discretion.

 

[357]

Unfortunately some managers don't seem to care for the discretion part of the process and see it as black and white.

I know someone who was once rather sick, came back for one shift before realizing it was too soon, so went off again.

His reward for making an effort to return to work was an MFA stage as he'd then had two instances of sickness within 13 weeks.

If a member of staff has to have time off ie go sick, due to an injury picked up at work, ie a back injury, can they be put on an MFA (manage for attendance) stage?

What's your union rep said?

 

[RJ]

Unfortunately some managers don't seem to care for the discretion part of the process and see it as black and white.

I know someone who was once rather sick, came back for one shift before realizing it was too soon, so went off again.

His reward for making an effort to return to work was an MFA stage as he'd then had two instances of sickness within 13 weeks.

What's your union rep said?

Managers also have managers and they will have pressure put on them if they don’t stage people who have flagged as triggering MFA.

Employees, in the interests of self preservation, are equally entitled to examine and understand the MFA procedure to avoid triggering it. If a colleague is off sick and not au fait with the way things work, colleagues who have their back and are keeping in contact outside of work will usually strongly advise them not to do anything to put themselves in the firing line if they can help it.

 

[ComUtoR]

Your TOC should have a clear attendance policy. That should highlight if you can be staged.

 

[dk1]

I’ve known a driver involved in a fatality being put on stage one due to time off after the incident

So anything is possible but it probably depends on the company and how strong the union is there

We once had a driver suffering cancer who the company wanted to MFA. His manager refused to issue it and it was quickly dropped.

I once heard our ASLEF rep say that not a single driver had been MFA’d under his watch over 15 years.

 

[43066]

We once had a driver suffering cancer who the company wanted to MFA. His manager refused to issue it and it was quickly dropped.

I once heard our ASLEF rep say that not a single driver had been MFA’d under his watch over 15 years.

Sensible of the manager concerned, not to mention the right thing to do in terms of human decency.

As noted above some do seem to see it as a box ticking exercise, and don’t exercise any discretion, even when there’s no evidence of patterns of absence etc. The risk of that approach is people coming back before they’ve recovered, and having incidents because they’re too unwell to be at work.

 

[Snow1964]

We once had a driver suffering cancer who the company wanted to MFA. His manager refused to issue it and it was quickly dropped.

Of course also in interests of employee in these circumstances to present a copy of letter from hospital before there is any question of are they taking the mick and taking sickies, rather than actually ill

The managers will have people higher up, expecting them to be be decent to employees whilst not letting slackers get free ride, so always a balance.

 

[dk1]

Sensible of the manager concerned, not to mention the right thing to do in terms of human decency.

As noted above some do seem to see it as a box ticking exercise and don’t exercise any discretion, even when there’s no evidence of patterns of absence etc. The risk of that approach is people coming back before they’ve recovered, and having incidents because they’re too unwell to be at work.

Very true. The manager concerned was happy to be disciplined himself if it came to that which of course it never did. The employee who sadly passed away a couple of years later was trying to come in to work each time he felt able but this was triggering the regular sickness. From what I recall they stopped logging them as he was restricted anyway so just stayed away when he had a rough day.

 

[43066]

Of course also in interests of employee in these circumstances to present a copy of letter from hospital before there is any question of are they taking the mick and taking sickies, rather than actually ill

I have no doubt the would have done. If someone wants to take the mick there are other conditions to choose from that are difficult to evidence either way, with back pain being the obvious one. Cancer isn’t exactly something you can “fake”.

The managers will have people higher up, expecting them to be be decent to employees whilst not letting slackers get free ride, so always a balance.

The issue comes where there’s no interest at all in being decent, and everyone who triggers is automatically put on a stage. This also leads to employees thinking that, if they need to take a day off they might as well take four off, as it’ll count for the same in terms of the absence policy; may as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb!

 

[RJ]

The issue comes where there’s no interest at all in being decent, and everyone who triggers is automatically put on a stage. This also leads to employees thinking that, if they need to take a day off they might as well take four off, as it’ll count for the same in terms of the absence policy; may as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb!

True, though there are people who trigger MFA then don't get staged because they understand how to undermine the system. I've heard of meetings where the manager has their head in their hands because a complete mockery is being made of the process in front of HR, a manager's request for certain statements not to be minuted overruled by the employee, instances where the employee has HR running terrified and even someone claiming they feared for their life every time they came into work. All resulting in the process being stopped. An employee can even receive pastoral care after being put through an aborted attempt to stage them.

With union reps it can be hit and miss. Some have a reputation for getting progression up the stages guaranteed, while others are effective in getting the company to be less rigid with the rules. If you know what you're doing, the case can be thrown out without the assistance of a rep. That said, the best outcome is to not be put on stage while preserving a good relationship with your line manager which does require some tact!

 

[whoosh]

Unfortunately some managers don't seem to care for the discretion part of the process and see it as black and white.

I know someone who was once rather sick, came back for one shift before realizing it was too soon, so went off again.

His reward for making an effort to return to work was an MFA stage as he'd then had two instances of sickness within 13 weeks.

The issue comes where there’s no interest at all in being decent, and everyone who triggers is automatically put on a stage. This also leads to employees thinking that, if they need to take a day off they might as well take four off, as it’ll count for the same in terms of the absence policy; may as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb!

Once you reach the trigger point, go for gold!

 

[Horizon22]

If a member of staff has to have time off ie go sick, due to an injury picked up at work, ie a back injury, can they be put on an MFA (manage for attendance) stage?

Yes. I’ve known people with a broken leg put onto it. It’s just a tool for days off work although there is always manager discretion. Normally these people go onto the very first stage and are off again after 52 weeks.

It’s also dependent on the circumstances; does the person with the broken arm have a good sickness records otherwise or have there been lots of other incidents?

We once had a driver suffering cancer who the company wanted to MFA. His manager refused to issue it and it was quickly dropped.

I once heard our ASLEF rep say that not a single driver had been MFA’d under his watch over 15 years.

Whilst the former is good, the latter is also not good; there is a middle ground and lots of low-level, small absences should be managed accordingly.

 

[Unicorn7]

Unfortunately some managers don't seem to care for the discretion part of the process and see it as black and white.

I know someone who was once rather sick, came back for one shift before realizing it was too soon, so went off again.

His reward for making an effort to return to work was an MFA stage as he'd then had two instances of sickness within 13 weeks.

What's your union rep said?

The manager should have classed it as one absence as it was related to the other absence and just a day in between. I don’t think the manager would have got very far with that one if unions etc got involved.

MFA should always be followed as a line manager. It’s the rules and it shows you are doing your job.

However, how it’s managed is where people get confused. I have had to MFA someone with an underlying condition. Therefore, the way I managed it was by extending the triggers. Or even not including absences for an underlying or long term illness. Making reasonable adjustments etc.

You do have to be mindful that so many people have been working the system for years, so as a line manager it’s important to be able to identify the genuine from the not so.

I have had people regularly take the mick and have long term sick after long term sick for any and everything. Those people are still around and that’s what MFA is there for and to be used.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I got MFA'd once after a car accident.

Was quickly dropped when I pointed out the 3 turns of duty that triggered it were RDWs and as such, didn't count as MFA triggers.

 

[12LDA28C]

Your TOC should have a clear attendance policy. That should highlight if you can be staged.

TOCs will certainly have a clear attendance policy which will list the triggers for attendance management. But the issues can arise with discretion. Manager A will stick to the letter of the law by saying the trigger point has been reached and initiate the procedure whilst Manager B will apply discretion and not put the driver on MFA.

 

[ComUtoR]

But the issues can arise with discretion. Manager A will stick to the letter of the law by saying the trigger point has been reached and initiate the procedure whilst Manager B will apply discretion and not put the driver on MFA.

The issue is that not everyone knows why this happens. When that is understood, it changes your perspective.

 

[12LDA28C]

The issue is that not everyone knows why this happens. When that is understood, it changes your perspective.

This happens because humans are not robots and have different interpretations of events. To remove the discretionary element would mean that MFA gets applied to the letter which many would see as unfair.

 

[scrapy]

Managers are also required to make allowances under the equality act. For example someone with a long term lung condition such as COPD is likely covered under the act. By the nature of their condition they may be more succeptable to chest infections and may take longer to recover. They are therefore more likely to trigger disciplinary stages due to their disability. The company must therefore make reasonable adjustments, such as not progressing an MFA where a doctor reasonably believes that had they not had their disability their sickness period would have been insufficient to trigger an MFA without the activating fact of the disability.

 

[moonie95]

If a member of staff has to have time off ie go sick, due to an injury picked up at work, ie a back injury, can they be put on an MFA (manage for attendance) stage?

 

[alxndr]

As noted above some do seem to see it as a box ticking exercise, and don’t exercise any discretion, even when there’s no evidence of patterns of absence etc. The risk of that approach is people coming back before they’ve recovered, and having incidents because they’re too unwell to be at work.

Of course also in interests of employee in these circumstances to present a copy of letter from hospital before there is any question of are they taking the mick and taking sickies, rather than actually ill

Hospital letters don’t always mean anything in the case of managers unwilling to exercise discretion. I ended up getting a stage for having surgery, despite telling them as soon as I’d received a date, providing the paperwork, and said manager reassuring me they envisaged no issues with my attendance. Seemed to be a case of once bitten, twice shy.

Almost certainly could have argued it, but as I’m very rarely sick (excluding ops I think I’ve had 2 days in 10 years) it didn’t seem worth the hassle.

 

[ComUtoR]

This happens because humans are not robots and have different interpretations of events. To remove the discretionary element would mean that MFA gets applied to the letter which many would see as unfair.

Have you ever considered that not applying discretion may be deliberate and actually done to help ?

 

[12LDA28C]

Have you ever considered that not applying discretion may be deliberate and actually done to help ?

Each individual case is different and will merit a response depending on the circumstances. That's the long and short of it.

 

[Class2ldn]

Have you ever considered that not applying discretion may be deliberate and actually done to help ?

Certainly isn't with my manager lol