Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[MikeDel]

Thanks LNW joint. So will the units be made into 3 car in the future?

Edge hill would be 8 car.

 

[LDECRexile]

If you are talking between Lime St and Manchester, oddly only Patricroft and Eccles can handle 8-car (20m) trains.
On the Wigan line, only St Helens Central.
Some platforms are on a list for extension, but only up to 6 cars.
They are currently all odd lengths from 4 upwards, with no consistency.

1. Can Lime Street's Chat Moss and Wigan platforms handle 8x20m trains?

2. Can you please tell us where we can view the list of possible extensions?

3. In the late Noughties I worked in Folkestone, travelling weekly to and from northern England. Eight and twelve coach trains routinely called at shorter Kentish stations and advised passengers to move to coaches 1 to 4 or whatever. This seemed ordinary, normal and unexceptional.

Was this an example of Grandfather Rights or could such practices be introduced up here when we stimulate demand to such a degree that we run eight or twelve coach stoppers?

 

[Geeves]

Theres not much chance of 8 cars or even 6 cars for the foreseeable future so I doubt Network rail really even have it on their radar

Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Rd and the Airport can all handle 8 cars as can Manchester Vic.

Surely Huyton, Earlstown and Edge Hill can also handle 8 cars, they look like they can?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks LNW joint. So will the units be made into 3 car in the future?
Edge hill would be 8 car.

Yes indeed, Edge Hill is well over 8-car length.
There are no plans to shorten class 319s.
Nothing runs at more than 4-car at the moment.

1. Can Lime Street's Chat Moss and Wigan platforms handle 8x20m trains?

According to Quail, P2/3 are limited to 7-car, all the rest are 8+.

2. Can you please tell us where we can view the list of possible extensions?

There is quite a long list in the NR CP5 enhancements plan (project NW008).

Scope of works
Early development identified that platform lengthening would be required at the following stations:
 4 x 24m car length at Mossley Down, Greenfield Down, Marsden, Slaithwaite, Mouldsworth, Delamere, Cuddington, Greenbank, Plumley Down, Ashley Down, Hathersage and Grindleford;
 4 x 23m car length at Dove Holes, Chapel-en-le Frith, Middlewood, Woodsmoor, Humphrey Park, Glazebrook Down, New Lane, Bescar Lane, Moses Gate, Hall i’th’wood, Darwen, Ramsgreave & Wilpshire, Langho, Whalley and Clitheroe;
 6 x 24m car length at Liverpool South Parkway Up and Down fast platforms, Widnes, Warrington Central and Newton-le-Willows; and
 3 x 23m car at Bamber Bridge Up.

Very few of these are on the new electric lines, and the only one of immediate interest is Newton-le Willows (but not to 8-car).
However it also says:

The scope will be determined by the rolling stock strategy for services in the North West and the operational plans of the relevant train operators

and all the milestones are "to be determined", so it's not getting very far.

3. In the late Noughties I worked in Folkestone, travelling weekly to and from northern England. Eight and twelve coach trains routinely called at shorter stations and advised passengers to move to coaches 1 to 4 or whatever. This seemed ordinary, normal and unexceptional.
Was this an example of Grandfather Rights or could such practices be introduced up here when we stimulate demand to such a degree that we run eight or twelve coach stoppers?

I don't know is the simple answer.
You may well be right on the question of grandfather rights.
Upgraded lines attract new standards (certainly the WCML did recently).
Whether a regional electrification project does is the question.
The new platforms at Huyton/Roby I suppose are an indication.

I still think too much is made of "doubling up" with all its infrastructure and shunting costs.
No Northern DMU services in the NW run with more than 4 cars.
An all-day 4-car service would be more effective than 2/3-car off peak doubling up to 4/6-car in the peak.

 

[Llama]

Difficult to keep up with updates on here sometimes, but just a point to make, west of Manchester Victoria there aren't any headspans, but rather portal structures that incorporate cross-span wires.

There have been additions to the metalwork that had appeared on the 'latticework' above the slow lines in the station (platform 3 & 4) that had caused some speculation a few weeks ago, it is now clear what type of support will be used for the registration arms, all looks pretty standard now.

 

[LDECRexile]

Yes indeed, Edge Hill is well over 8-car length.
There are no plans to shorten class 319s.
Nothing runs at more than 4-car at the moment.


According to Quail, P2/3 are limited to 7-car, all the rest are 8+.

There is quite a long list in the NR CP5 enhancements plan (project NW008).

Very few of these are on the new electric lines, and the only one of immediate interest is Newton-le Willows (but not to 8-car).
However it also says:


and all the milestones are "to be determined", so it's not getting very far.



I don't know is the simple answer.
You may well be right on the question of grandfather rights.
Upgraded lines attract new standards (certainly the WCML did recently).
Whether a regional electrification project does is the question.
The new platforms at Huyton/Roby I suppose are an indication.

I still think too much is made of "doubling up" with all its infrastructure and shunting costs.
No Northern DMU services in the NW run with more than 4 cars.
An all-day 4-car service would be more effective than 2/3-car off peak doubling up to 4/6-car in the peak.

A characteristically superb reply, for which, warm thanks.

Much to mull therein.

I suggest that whether long trains will be allowed to call at short stations is strategically important. If not, then we have a serious impediment to growth, as the convoy will be limited to the size of the smallest ship, so to speak.

By this I mean that if demand is stimulated and people continue to flock onto the railways then sooner or later the 4-car 15 : xx Liverpool to Wigan stopper will be routinely crush loaded and leaving people standing at Lime St. If, Praise Be, Northern2 say 'OK, we've now got even more 319s from Down South, let's make the trains 8-car' and OffRail say 'Uh-oh, you can't stop the train at Wavertree TP, Roby, Eccleston Park or Garswood because it's too long.' then we'll be up the siding without a coal shovel.

Undoubtedly, we'll have time to play with until the imminent longer trains are full, but I for one like to look at the next but one hill as well as the next and current ones.

Mullworthy, thank you.

 

[martynbristow]

The 319 discussion has a separate thread and the ideas about 3car has been discussed there previously.

 

[MikeDel]

Thank you for answering my questions, i work on the freight side, last time i was in the cab on this route in daylight was a few months back. Next time i am ill get some photos or footage.
Is it true some posts have been put up in the path of the 4th line at Huyton and will be removed later?
And is there any updates on the land aquisition?
Cheers
Mike

 

[po8crg]

There are two issues with train length and stopping at particular stations, one is indeed platform length, but the other is point and signal positioning. While it would be entirely possible to have SDO (selective door opening) at the set level on short platforms - ie an eight-car train comprised of two 319s would only open the doors on one of the two sets (four of the eight cars), though there may be regulatory limitations, but if the train were to block points or overhang a signal block, then it would still not be possible to stop an 8-car set at that station.

One station where I know there is no capacity to stop longer trains, even with SDO, is Salford Crescent. If there are any stations with this issue along these lines (and I'm thinking particularly of Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows with their WCML connections) then this would require resolving before longer trains could stop there.

Moving signals, on an otherwise clear line, should not be outrageously expensive, especially as the line may be resignalled anyway; but moving points will certainly require both trackwork and modifications to OHLE, which is a significant cost and might require moving actual junctions, which may not be possible at all, and would certainly be very expensive indeed.

 

[LDECRexile]

There are two issues with train length and stopping at particular stations, one is indeed platform length, but the other is point and signal positioning. While it would be entirely possible to have SDO (selective door opening) at the set level on short platforms - ie an eight-car train comprised of two 319s would only open the doors on one of the two sets (four of the eight cars), though there may be regulatory limitations, but if the train were to block points or overhang a signal block, then it would still not be possible to stop an 8-car set at that station.

One station where I know there is no capacity to stop longer trains, even with SDO, is Salford Crescent. If there are any stations with this issue along these lines (and I'm thinking particularly of Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows with their WCML connections) then this would require resolving before longer trains could stop there.

Moving signals, on an otherwise clear line, should not be outrageously expensive, especially as the line may be resignalled anyway; but moving points will certainly require both trackwork and modifications to OHLE, which is a significant cost and might require moving actual junctions, which may not be possible at all, and would certainly be very expensive indeed.

Helpful and interesting, thank you.

 

[UrbanWorld]

Thank you for answering my questions, i work on the freight side, last time i was in the cab on this route in daylight was a few months back. Next time i am ill get some photos or footage.
Is it true some posts have been put up in the path of the 4th line at Huyton and will be removed later?
And is there any updates on the land aquisition?
Cheers
Mike

In the Olive mount Cutting they could have hung gantries from the sides of the cutting walls, as in the Lime St cutting. The posts on the trackbed through the Olive Mount Cutting will be used as an extra costs excuse not to run in further services to Liverpool, such high-speed rail.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Helpful and interesting, thank you.

Just to mention that the proposed platform extension at Liverpool South Parkway is because 6-car 185s have to lock out one unit there (and elsewhere on the CLC route).
Definitely no grandfather rights there (was Allerton before rebuilding)!

Earlestown is completely unbalanced.
P1 can take 8, but 2/3/5 can only take 5.
P4 can take 7.
Even the new Wavertree can only take 5.

 

[Class377/5]

There are two issues with train length and stopping at particular stations, one is indeed platform length, but the other is point and signal positioning. While it would be entirely possible to have SDO (selective door opening) at the set level on short platforms - ie an eight-car train comprised of two 319s would only open the doors on one of the two sets (four of the eight cars), though there may be regulatory limitations, but if the train were to block points or overhang a signal block, then it would still not be possible to stop an 8-car set at that station.

One station where I know there is no capacity to stop longer trains, even with SDO, is Salford Crescent. If there are any stations with this issue along these lines (and I'm thinking particularly of Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows with their WCML connections) then this would require resolving before longer trains could stop there.

Moving signals, on an otherwise clear line, should not be outrageously expensive, especially as the line may be resignalled anyway; but moving points will certainly require both trackwork and modifications to OHLE, which is a significant cost and might require moving actual junctions, which may not be possible at all, and would certainly be very expensive indeed.

SDO in the 319s would be very very expensive job to do as the trains don't have a computer to control this. Platform extensions would be cheaper.

As to the Folkstone suggestion, back in the late 1990s you had old stock with grandfather rights where common sense was allowed for. Sadly your not allowed this today.

 

[po8crg]

SDO in the 319s would be very very expensive job to do as the trains don't have a computer to control this. Platform extensions would be cheaper.

Full-on SDO, sure, but couldn't you just lock-out one of the two units?

 

[northwichcat]

Full-on SDO, sure, but couldn't you just lock-out one of the two units?

If (as expected) 319s get used on Manchester-Preston via Bolton services (as expected) that's a difficult problem to solve.

319s wouldn't be able to leave central Manchester with all 8 cars in use due to Salford Crescent only being able to take 6 x 24m car trains, effectively defeating the point of having a strengthened service.

Lengthening platforms at Salford Crescent wouldn't be a cheap or simple job due to the track structure and it's only recently had £12m spent on it, partly to be able to take 6 car 185s. Network Rail are actually against changing the track structure again and have recommended that either 6 car EMUs would need be found or alternatively DMUs used under the wires. I'm not even sure if SDO would be an option here (as you've mentioned) as the positions of signals and points have to be taken in to account when stopping a train.

However, for Chat Moss there are no plans to run formations longer than 4 cars, except for trains which don't stop at intermediate stations on that line (like TPE services.) There are, however, plans to lengthen the platforms at stations which ATW call at on Chat Moss.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If (as expected) 319s get used on Manchester-Preston via Bolton services (as expected) that's a difficult problem to solve.
319s wouldn't be able to leave central Manchester with all 8 cars in use due to Salford Crescent only being able to take 6 x 24m car trains, effectively defeating the point of having a strengthened service.

Are there any 6/8-car Northern DMUs operating on the Bolton route?
I've never seen anything bigger than 4-car (and usually 2-car).

 

[northwichcat]

Are there any 6/8-car Northern DMUs operating on the Bolton route?
I've never seen anything bigger than 4-car (and usually 2-car).

4 cars is the the longest under normal circumstances but some of those services don't have much spare space, so replacing with a 4 car 319 wouldn't allow for any growth. Pre-Christmas Saturdays and during engineering works Northern have run 6 car formations.

Also TPE run a limited number of 6 car 185s on Airport-Blackpool services daily, with Northern expected to take over Airport-Blackpool.

 

[edwin_m]

Full-on SDO, sure, but couldn't you just lock-out one of the two units?

I think that would be more trouble than it's worth, as the cab ends aren't gangwayed so anyone in the wrong one would have to realise in time and make a dash along the platform at an earlier station.

 

[8J]

6 car 150's (with the occasional 156 slipped in for good measure) ran the Chorley turnbacks this summer when the arches where being replaced. With them though not all coaches fitted on the platform at Blackrod and Addlington. They also sent 6 car 150s through to Preston this Christmas to support the loco hauled crowd busters. These didn't have the problem of stopping at either Blackrod or Addlington.

 

[Class377/5]

Full-on SDO, sure, but couldn't you just lock-out one of the two units?

You can't unlock the rear unit that easily. I'm not sure if the Northerm mods change it but currently to lock out a unit requires manual lock out each time its implemented. Passengers are currently not permitted to travel in a locked out unit barring emergency situation where theres a genuine safety reason.

Don't forget SDO works by allowing the doors to open. To do this the train uses GPS or beacons then allows driver to open doors as per its programming. The 319s do not have this equipment and it won't be easy to retrofit, requiring major rewiring of the unit. Fact no TOC has done this to a BR era EMU speaks volumes.

 

[LDECRexile]

I've been out and about today.

1. Booms up on Carr Mill Viaduct masts
2. The missing mast immediately north of the viaduct now stands proud as part of a portal.
3. The fourth portal for Sankey Viaduct is still lying beside the track
4. Orangemen were using chainsaws on the trees on Sankey Viaduct's western approach embankment, south side
5. Wiring looks rather more finished at St Helens Junction
6. Platform signs being set back in their proper positions at Rainhill
7. More danglies on portals between Huyton Station and Junction
8. The northern mast and associated portal cross-member still missing from Huyton Platform 4 east end
9. Network Rail Orangeman checking lengths at Roby station, it looked like an audit, eg 'the contractors are claiming they've laid x metres of fence, let's measure the fences' (I've made that example up to show the apparent idea).
10. Roby lifts still locked out of use
11. The wires Paul Gaskell photographed the other day definitely continue northwards from the long-standing full wiring which previously ended at Ravenhead Sidings. Paul was unable to establish this for certain on his visit as it got dark.
12. Someone reported recently that there were no wires from Gerards Bridge Jct to St Helens Central. This was surprising, as for some time there has been a very short stretch immediately south of the piers of the former GCR viaduct. I'm pleased to report it is there. It stretches over two gaps between three pairs of masts..

Photos later.

 

[DJH1971]

I've been out and about today.

1. Booms up on Carr Mill Viaduct masts
2. The missing mast immediately north of the viaduct now stands proud as part of a portal.
3. The fourth portal for Sankey Viaduct is still lying beside the track
4. Orangemen were using chainsaws on the trees on Sankey Viaduct's western approach embankment, south side
5. Wiring looks rather more finished at St Helens Junction
6. Platform signs being set back in their proper positions at Rainhill
7. More danglies on portals between Huyton Station and Junction
8. The northern mast and associated portal cross-member still missing from Huyton Platform 4 east end
9. Network Rail Orangeman checking lengths at Roby station, it looked like an audit, eg 'the contractors are claiming they've laid x metres of fence, let's measure the fences' (I've made that example up to show the apparent idea).
10. Roby lifts still locked out of use
11. The wires Paul Gaskell photographed the other day definitely continue northwards from the long-standing full wiring which previously ended at Ravenhead Sidings. Paul was unable to establish this for certain on his visit as it got dark.
12. Someone reported recently that there were no wires from Gerards Bridge Jct to St Helens Central. This was surprising, as for some time there has been a very short stretch immediately south of the piers of the former GCR viaduct. I'm pleased to report it is there. It stretches over two gaps between three pairs of masts..

Photos later.

What exactly are these danglies?

 

[ianhr]

SDO

As to the Folkstone suggestion, back in the late 1990s you had old stock with grandfather rights where common sense was allowed for. Sadly your not allowed this today.

Also the ex-SR lines were mainly operated by 4-VEP, 4-CEP and 4-CIG stock which was gangwayed throughout when running in multiple, so passengers could walk through more than one set. The 319s are only gangwayed within the unit and have non-corridor/non-vestibule driving ends.

 

[LDECRexile]

Also the ex-SR lines were mainly operated by 4-VEP, 4-CEP and 4-CIG stock which was gangwayed throughout when running in multiple, so passengers could walk through more than one set. The 319s are only gangwayed within the unit and have non-corridor/non-vestibule driving ends.

Indeed, but I worked in Folkestone in the late Noughties, not Nineties, ie 2008-9. The trains were, I believe, 'Electrostars', but I'm no expert so don't throw too many things at me. They certainly didn't seem antediluvian.

I completely accept that 319s, with ancient gubbins and no end gangways, are non-starters for SDO, I was trying to establish whether it would be possible, with the right stock, to take this approach, given that it was in everyday use Down South.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What exactly are these danglies?

I don't know exactly. They seem to come in all shapes and sizes, some stick up like little Xmas trees, others clamp on, others dangle down, yet others dangle off things which dangle. Some stick out. I've heard terms like 'Registration Arms' used but I'm not crystal clear what is a Registration Arm is so I don't pretend to.

I have repeatedly referred to Danglies in texts accompanying photos and will do so with today's set.

In short, they are the things which Orangemen attach to masts and portals. I have been exercised by wondering why TGBUs appear to be entirely unbedanglied. Have you any idea why they remain as bare as a baby's bum?

 

[DJH1971]

I have been exercised by wondering why TGBUs appear to be entirely unbedanglied. Have you any idea why they remain as bare as a baby's bum?

They certainly stick out a mile.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I have been exercised by wondering why TGBUs appear to be entirely unbedanglied.

Me too though it does not keep me awake at night. It is not just the steelwork - the amount of concrete is absolutely huge too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What exactly are these danglies?

Anything more than the basic up/down/across bits I would say.
I'm no expert but I think registration arms are the final bits of metal that actually connect to the contact wire, usually connected to a horizontal arm by an elbow affair.
They keep the wire "in registration", ie the right height/stagger above the tracks, and they alternate right and left to maintain tension.

Somewhere on this thread in Phase 1 somebody published a diagram with all the component names, but as ever I can't find it now.

Another phrase they use is "SPS" which is "small part systems", or all the fiddly add-on bits that go on the masts.
You often find a bag of these components left by each mast ready to be mounted when the time comes.

"Droppers" are wires that connect the contact wire to the catenary above.
Mast wiring is return or earth at mid-height, and AT (autotransformer) high up.
With lower traffic, the Wigan branch hasn't got an AT wire.
An amateur's view.

 

[Geeves]

Two more bigguns up at Vic.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/IMG_20150105_114414356_zps1e9ce52d.jpg

Lil diragram for you, this is the same as they give us to learn at work

http://irolearn.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/image-1-from-page-227.png

 

[WatcherZero]

You can't unlock the rear unit that easily. I'm not sure if the Northerm mods change it but currently to lock out a unit requires manual lock out each time its implemented. Passengers are currently not permitted to travel in a locked out unit barring emergency situation where theres a genuine safety reason.

Don't forget SDO works by allowing the doors to open. To do this the train uses GPS or beacons then allows driver to open doors as per its programming. The 319s do not have this equipment and it won't be easy to retrofit, requiring major rewiring of the unit. Fact no TOC has done this to a BR era EMU speaks volumes.

The Northern mods include unplating the individual door controls at each door on the 319's that the previous user plated up, whether that makes it possible or not I don't know but in theory at a minimum the guard should at least be able to lock out the rearmost door. 350's when paired at Oxford Road lock the doors on the whole rear unit but still let people ride in it, they just do a VA telling people to get off they need to go to the front train.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Two more bigguns up at Vic.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/Geeves8612/IMG_20150105_114414356_zps1e9ce52d.jpg

Lil diragram for you, this is the same as they give us to learn at work

http://irolearn.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/image-1-from-page-227.png

very useful thanks