Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Class377/5]

So we already have outstanding diversionary routes that are electrified. I just love a rolling program of electrification - makes so much sense.

And it will mean less reasons to stop trains when there is a probity as you can do diverting where needed. Will improve the service no end.

 

[LDECRexile]

A lot of clicking took place along Chat Moss yesterday!

I am delighted that no fewer than four people have sent me films and photos for publication. I'm struggling to download one contributor's work, but we'll get there.

I have added Bill from Huyton's material to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648707438634/

I have added David Hilton's material to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648573451694/

I have added Paul Gaskell's material to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157649792560381/

I have added them all, plus my own, to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

I look forward to adding a film taken at Wavertree Technology Park when I get my act together with downloading it, doubtless I'm missing something obvious.

Thank you Bill, David and Paul.

 

[Class 170101]

3900xx pass Whiston Station @ 13.53hrs on 1A44 13.43hrs Lime St - Euston with 350153 passing a minute later with 1F05 10.14hrs Euston - Lime St. Passed each other in the cutting between station and Cumber Lane Bridge.

In the meantime, learnt something new, chatted to driver of Airport - Lime St train while stopping at Whiston Station advising Pendo up his backside, then noted the double yellow "flashing" signal (HN309), driver advised me that it meant he had to cross over to the 'slow" road at the Huyton Junction so it allowed "Pendo" to pass him on the fast line. Never noted the signal doing that before so as I've said learnt somthing new!

Presumably you meant 1F05 was formed by 390153?

 

[LeylandLen]

Obviously its now possible to run Liverpool LS/ Man to Glasgow/ Edinburgh under the wires using class 390 Pendelinos. Are there any plans to reinstate the direct Liverpool to Scotland services? I know there were pre-Virgin services under BR. Many on Merseyside do want a direct service.

 

[Whistler40145]

First of all, Virgin can only run a Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh service if it's part of the franchise agreement and does it have sufficient Pendolinos?

 

[edwin_m]

There's a desire for a Liverpool-Scotland service - isn't it in the TP franchise spec as an option? However it would most likely split/join with the Manchester-Scotland at Preston due to a lack of paths on the WCML. This in turn probably needs new stock on that route because the fleet of 10 class 350s isn't enough to run to Liverpool as well, and if new units were bought just for Liverpool they probably wouldn't be able to operate coupled with 350s.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its kinda been hinted now the 350's would form the core of the Northern 'Regional' service fleet, most likely Manchester-Blackpool.

 

[thealexweb]

Its kinda been hinted now the 350's would form the core of the Northern 'Regional' service fleet, most likely Manchester-Blackpool.

There are multiple problems with that sadly. There are not enough 350/4s to run all Blackpool North and Windermere runs. I include Windermere as I presume services will still need to be doubled up as far as Preston to maintain the same number of paths. Also Salford Crescent and Oxford Road can only take 7 x 23m and Horwich and Chorley 6 x 23m.

 

[Holly]

There's a desire for a Liverpool-Scotland service - isn't it in the TP franchise spec as an option? However it would most likely split/join with the Manchester-Scotland at Preston due to a lack of paths on the WCML. This in turn probably needs new stock on that route because the fleet of 10 class 350s isn't enough to run to Liverpool as well, and if new units were bought just for Liverpool they probably wouldn't be able to operate coupled with 350s.

Splits are good, but Joins cause logistical problems whenever there are delays.
How about this scheme:
Train AB travels Manchester-Carstairs where it splits, A to Edinburgh, B to Glasgow.
Train CD travels Liverpool-Carstairs where it splits, C to Edinburgh, D to Glasgow.
A joins with C to form AC which travels Edinburgh-Preston where it splits, A to Manchester, C to Liverpool.
B joins with D to form BD which travels Glasgow--Preston where it splits, B to Manchester, D to Liverpool.

 

[WatcherZero]

Oxford Road is having is having its platforms lengthened. And there isn't enough 350's to run Scotland services either, still doing so. Also if you check the franchise spec Manchester Blackpool is split up into two different requirements, Blackpool-Preston and Preston-Manchesester via Bolton. So a bidder could operate Blackpool services via Wigan as long as they maintained a service to Preston via Bolton, they could also combine the Manchester-Wigan section with the requirement to run an extra Wigan shuttle to replace Scotland going back to Bolton. Since Bolton path numbers may be tight this may be easiest way to do it and avoids the length issue on the Bolton line stations.

 

[8A Rail]

Presumably you meant 1F05 was formed by 390153?

Yes, typing error! Sorry but I'm sure you do the odd now one and then?

 

[AM9]

A lot of clicking took place along Chat Moss yesterday!

I am delighted that no fewer than four people have sent me films and photos for publication. I'm struggling to download one contributor's work, but we'll get there.

I have added Bill from Huyton's material to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648707438634/

I have added David Hilton's material to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648573451694/

I have added Paul Gaskell's material to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157649792560381/

I have added them all, plus my own, to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

I look forward to adding a film taken at Wavertree Technology Park when I get my act together with downloading it, doubtless I'm missing something obvious.

Thank you Bill, David and Paul.

Hi Dave,

From down here, I don't have any of my own material that might be useful but if you need any help with any of the above just get in touch.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Splits are good, but Joins cause logistical problems whenever there are delays.
How about this scheme:
Train AB travels Manchester-Carstairs where it splits, A to Edinburgh, B to Glasgow.
Train CD travels Liverpool-Carstairs where it splits, C to Edinburgh, D to Glasgow.
A joins with C to form AC which travels Edinburgh-Preston where it splits, A to Manchester, C to Liverpool.
B joins with D to form BD which travels Glasgow--Preston where it splits, B to Manchester, D to Liverpool.

Sounds very complicated, but if it could be made to work reliably it would allow a comprehensive service with only 1 path per hour per direction (presumably).

 

[me123]

Splits are good, but Joins cause logistical problems whenever there are delays.
How about this scheme:
Train AB travels Manchester-Carstairs where it splits, A to Edinburgh, B to Glasgow.
Train CD travels Liverpool-Carstairs where it splits, C to Edinburgh, D to Glasgow.
A joins with C to form AC which travels Edinburgh-Preston where it splits, A to Manchester, C to Liverpool.
B joins with D to form BD which travels Glasgow--Preston where it splits, B to Manchester, D to Liverpool.

The problem is that you'd have long turn arounds (likely in Scotland) which decreases utilisation of the trains.

For example (using random times to make my point).
Your train AB leaves at 0800, with the A portion getting into Glasgow at 1200.
Your train CD leaves at 1000, with the C portion getting into Glasgow at 1400.
The problem is that your AC train can't leave until 1430, but that means that the A portion needs to wait for an extra hour before going back, whilst it awaits the C portion. That's time, hence money, wasted.

 

[edwin_m]

Splits are good, but Joins cause logistical problems whenever there are delays.
How about this scheme:
Train AB travels Manchester-Carstairs where it splits, A to Edinburgh, B to Glasgow.
Train CD travels Liverpool-Carstairs where it splits, C to Edinburgh, D to Glasgow.
A joins with C to form AC which travels Edinburgh-Preston where it splits, A to Manchester, C to Liverpool.
B joins with D to form BD which travels Glasgow--Preston where it splits, B to Manchester, D to Liverpool.

Yes an interesting thought. Effectively the joining is moved to the termini, so although there is still some risk of a portion being delayed most of the turnaround time is available as recovery time before it affects the next working. A couple of flies in the ointment: crew rostering could be pretty inefficient, and the turnaround time at the Scotland end may also be a mandatory crew break; and some of the Manchester trains probably need to load to 8 cars without a Liverpool portion. 12 cars would cause problems with platforming at Glasgow and possibly Edinburgh too.

 

[LDECRexile]

I'm delighted that:

1. Wavertreelad has persevered with my ineptitude, resulting in successfully downloading then uploading his film taken at Wavertree Tech Park yesterday

I have added it to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157647960413204/

2. Phil Wieland has sent two shots of a 390 passing through Huyton yesterday, I've added them to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157650238941151/

3. I've managed to extract a still from an otherwise unacceptable film I took of a 390 crossing Sankey Viaduct yesterday.

I've added all four to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

Thank you Phil and Wavertreelad
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hi Dave,

From down here, I don't have any of my own material that might be useful but if you need any help with any of the above just get in touch.

Thank you AM9, this and your past help have been as helpful to me re film as 8A_Rail's were re stills in my beginning days.

I forget many things, but not peoples' kindness and consideration.

 

[childwallblues]

There are multiple problems with that sadly. There are not enough 350/4s to run all Blackpool North and Windermere runs. I include Windermere as I presume services will still need to be doubled up as far as Preston to maintain the same number of paths. Also Salford Crescent and Oxford Road can only take 7 x 23m and Horwich and Chorley 6 x 23m.

Blackpool North and Windermere could use spare 319s. It seems stupid to build more new stock when there is surplus stock in sidings.

 

[edwin_m]

Blackpool North and Windermere could use spare 319s. It seems stupid to build more new stock when there is surplus stock in sidings.

To me the best idea would still be for the 350s to transfer to London Midland when growth on that franchise requires it, as they are practically identical to the units already in use there. Northern would have the 120 new vehicles (DMUs or bi-modes) plus whatever else the successful bidder comes up with. Transpennine needs a new fleet which could be specified to be in 3-car or 4-car format for different routes according to demand and available platform length. If Transpennine doesn't get a new fleet then I'm in danger of joining the chorus of complaints about southern cast-offs...

 

[QueensCurve]

Obviously its now possible to run Liverpool LS/ Man to Glasgow/ Edinburgh under the wires using class 390 Pendelinos. Are there any plans to reinstate the direct Liverpool to Scotland services? I know there were pre-Virgin services under BR. Many on Merseyside do want a direct service.

In the 1980s as I recall there was only an early morning Liverpool to Edinburgh combined between Preston and Carstairs with a Manchester to Glasgow. This was balanced in the evening by the 18:10 Edinburgh to Liverpool and 18:25 Glasgow to Manchester. A service requiring no fewer than 3 diesel and 1 electric locomotives.

I traveled once (about 1984 I think) on the 18:10 Ex Edinburgh having missed my connection into the 17:10 to Birmingham from a late running Dundee to Edinburgh. The connection was in the platform at Haymarket as we arrived and I ran over the stairs to see it's tail lamp disappearing round the corner. I made it to Hartford that night being 12m early into Lime St.

I think these services stopped in the mid to late 1980s as part of BR's push to get rid of locomotive changes.

 

[snowball]

In the 1980s as I recall there was only an early morning Liverpool to Edinburgh combined between Preston and Carstairs with a Manchester to Glasgow. This was balanced in the evening by the 18:10 Edinburgh to Liverpool and 18:25 Glasgow to Manchester. A service requiring no fewer than 3 diesel and 1 electric locomotives.

This sounds like an economised version of an earlier system. For some years after electrification in 1974 there were separate morning Manchester-Glasgow and Liverpool-Edinburgh trains allowing cross-platform interchange at Preston, requiring a total of 3 diesel and 2 electric locomotives. Both trains had to be re-engined at Preston in succession, a somewhat drawn-out process. The Manchester-Glasgow left Victoria at 07:53 and used a set of coaches which would go on to do Glasgow-Euston-Man Picc later in the day.

At that time there were also 3-portion trains with Liverpool-Glasgow, Manchester-Glasgow and Manchester-Edinburgh portions.

 

[QueensCurve]

Splits are good, but Joins cause logistical problems whenever there are delays.
How about this scheme:
Train AB travels Manchester-Carstairs where it splits, A to Edinburgh, B to Glasgow.
Train CD travels Liverpool-Carstairs where it splits, C to Edinburgh, D to Glasgow.
A joins with C to form AC which travels Edinburgh-Preston where it splits, A to Manchester, C to Liverpool.
B joins with D to form BD which travels Glasgow--Preston where it splits, B to Manchester, D to Liverpool.

For those Manchester Airport to Scotland workings that are portion-worked, Carlisle now seems the favoured splitting/joining point rather than Carstairs.

While Carstairs is now an unmanned halt with a bus shelter on the platform, the 350s can surely be split//joined there as it can be done by the train crews alone.

 

[me123]

For those Manchester Airport to Scotland workings that are portion-worked, Carlisle now seems the favoured splitting/joining point rather than Carstairs.

While Carstairs is now an unmanned halt with a bus shelter on the platform, the 350s can surely be split//joined there as it can be done by the train crews alone.

Indeed, it would be much easier to do this than it is to split and join the sleeper, which happens six nights a week.

But Carlisle is a very simple join. Trains arrive, hook up, and on they go. Carstairs on the other hand involves the Edinburgh portion arriving in front of the Glasgow portion and then reversing back out. It all takes up more time purely to serve a lightly used station. Is it worthwhile? Perhaps it's cheaper than running two trains in close proximity up and down the WCML (perhaps one of the two could stop at Lockerbie), but it would lead to a perception of slowing down the service which could make rail less competitive, particularly from Edinburgh.

(And yes I'm perfectly aware that the Carstairs split/join was the norm in days gone by, but that's no longer the case so it could also be seen as a retrograde step).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For those Manchester Airport to Scotland workings that are portion-worked, Carlisle now seems the favoured splitting/joining point rather than Carstairs.
While Carstairs is now an unmanned halt with a bus shelter on the platform, the 350s can surely be split//joined there as it can be done by the train crews alone.

Are there any splits at Carlisle in normal running?
I thought all the TPE services ran through to either Edinburgh or Glasgow, not both.
The Lowland Sleeper still splits at Carstairs.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

In the 1980s as I recall there was only an early morning Liverpool to Edinburgh combined between Preston and Carstairs with a Manchester to Glasgow. This was balanced in the evening by the 18:10 Edinburgh to Liverpool and 18:25 Glasgow to Manchester. A service requiring no fewer than 3 diesel and 1 electric locomotives.

I think these services stopped in the mid to late 1980s as part of BR's push to get rid of locomotive changes.

And I took this on more than one occasion - they were doing it in the 1970s too. I once a class 40 on the Carstairs-Edinburgh portion and all the class 40 bashers used to go on the Preston-Liverpool portion - very often a Class 40. Used to run as 1M22 if memory serves correctly.

 

[Bevan Price]

There's a desire for a Liverpool-Scotland service - isn't it in the TP franchise spec as an option? However it would most likely split/join with the Manchester-Scotland at Preston due to a lack of paths on the WCML. This in turn probably needs new stock on that route because the fleet of 10 class 350s isn't enough to run to Liverpool as well, and if new units were bought just for Liverpool they probably wouldn't be able to operate coupled with 350s.

I think that Liverpool - Scotland services will have to wait until "they" obtain new emus for the electrified Trans Pennine routes. Even if Liverpool / Manchester - Scotland services get transferred to a "New West Coast" franchise, there are currently insufficient spare emus available for more than a token Liverpool / Scotland service.

 

[8A Rail]

In the 1980s as I recall there was only an early morning Liverpool to Edinburgh combined between Preston and Carstairs with a Manchester to Glasgow. This was balanced in the evening by the 18:10 Edinburgh to Liverpool and 18:25 Glasgow to Manchester. A service requiring no fewer than 3 diesel and 1 electric locomotives.

I traveled once (about 1984 I think) on the 18:10 Ex Edinburgh having missed my connection into the 17:10 to Birmingham from a late running Dundee to Edinburgh. The connection was in the platform at Haymarket as we arrived and I ran over the stairs to see it's tail lamp disappearing round the corner. I made it to Hartford that night being 12m early into Lime St.

I think these services stopped in the mid to late 1980s as part of BR's push to get rid of locomotive changes.

Actually it was later than you think - mid 1990's (1994) and by then in the hands of I/C Class 47's although occasional Class 31 or 37 hauled the Liverpool - Preston or vice versa legs. See: https://www.flickr.com/photos/8a-collection/14075112690/

The following year for a temporary period, the service went over to Class 158's then stopped altogether.

 

[Dunc108]

I think that Liverpool - Scotland services will have to wait until "they" obtain new emus for the electrified Trans Pennine routes. Even if Liverpool / Manchester - Scotland services get transferred to a "New West Coast" franchise, there are currently insufficient spare emus available for more than a token Liverpool / Scotland service.

You could operate a through Liverpool - Scotland Electric service now the route via St Helens Central is energised. I bet even a 9-car Pendolino could work it but it would be more suited to a 4-car 350.

 

[DJH1971]

You could operate a through Liverpool - Scotland Electric service now the route via St Helens Central is energised. I bet even a 9-car Pendolino could work it but it would be more suited to a 4-car 350.

And the Liverpool to Edinburgh service (and vice versa) used to call at St Helens Central too.

 

[Dunc108]

And the Liverpool to Edinburgh service (and vice versa) used to call at St Helens Central too.

Yes thats correct. I assume it would do so again whenever/if they resurrect it.

 

[DJH1971]

Yes thats correct. I assume it would do so again whenever/if they resurrect it.

It's a good idea and many on Merseyside want this service resurrected.

If Manchester can have a direct service to Sccotland, why can't Liverpool?