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Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

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edwin_m

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Philip Phlopp said:
That's one reason we're all so happy with the Series 1 system, compared with some Mk.3 headspans on the ECML, there's around an 80% drop in nuts and bolts and a similar 80% drop in the number of insulators. What insulators and bolts remain are standard whether it's a single or twin track cantilever structure, portal gantry or other mounting system.
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Do you mean by this the number of different types of nuts, bolts, insulators in the "catalogue", or the actual number of these items hanging above the track?
 
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Philip Phlopp

Philip Phlopp

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edwin_m said:
Do you mean by this the number of different types of nuts, bolts, insulators in the "catalogue", or the actual number of these items hanging above the track?
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The actual numbers of components above the track, on a like-for-like track basis. The number of components in the catalogue has been reduced too in order to allow for greater bulk purchasing power by Network Rail.
 
Philip Phlopp

Philip Phlopp

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LDECRexile said:
Paul and I went out and about yesterday (Monday) looking at the electrification of the Wigan Branch.

I've added Paul's photos to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381

and our joint output to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811
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Hmm, I hadn't noticed some of the Class 319s have the luxury version BR/BW High Speed pantograph. I thought they had the value version, same as the Class 350s, with the fins on the knuckle.
 
sarahj

sarahj

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Philip Phlopp said:
I can't imagine a sensible reason to use a concrete mast, there would be a lot of engineering challenges - rigidly the mounting of the cantilever arm would be very difficult, to have any level of height adjustment you would need to use some sort of clamping arrangement which would be in danger of over compressing the concrete of the mast. Concrete cracking/spalling under the bracket would allow the cantilever to move and result in a loss of registration, will allow water ingress resulting in corrosion and generally isn't good.

The risk of spalling, hidden internal corrosion issues and stray electrical currents within the metal reinforcing, and a suitable monitoring regime to deal with those would be significant headaches to deal with.

To my mind, concrete has had its day for such uses - along with lamp standards, signal gantries and the like, the way forward is steel structures with a modern epoxy resin paint system to add an extra decade or two of life expectancy.

Tubular outriggers and other bits of OLE aren't advances, they're old hat and really pretty rubbish if we're being honest. It's just a way to add a failure point or two to a system. The idea of suspending a cantilever by using a steel wire isn't ideal, you need clamps on the wire at either end, and a higher mast than we would normally use to give a decent angle for support. Outriggers do get a bit of use with our systems, mainly for AT cables and to drop down cantilevers from gantries/portals.

We've had so many of our OLE engineering teams reporting failures and so many engineers - F+F et al designing out failure modes, building in reliability to the system, that I see absolutely no benefits in trying to reinvent the wheel by taking a square and rounding off the edges.
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Well thats me told. :oops: I must go over to Germany (and hungary) and tell them that the concrete masts that they are using on their high speed lines and in some places been used since the late 1930's, cannot cope and will not last.;)

I can see some of the new OHLE is almost a belt and braces style and in complete contrast to whats on the ECML. However, in certain areas it might be OTT. The section around Bath will need some special thought. I know on the ECML some folks were trying to get 3rd rail on the Royal Border Bridge in Berwick, and they came up with slimline masts to help. Trying to use the kit that is pictured here on the new builds will just antagonise the situation.
 
Philip Phlopp

Philip Phlopp

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sarahj said:
Well thats me told. :oops: I must go over to Germany (and hungary) and tell them that the concrete masts that they are using on their high speed lines and in some places been used since the late 1930's, cannot cope and will not last.;)

I can see some of the new OHLE is almost a belt and braces style and in complete contrast to whats on the ECML. However, in certain areas it might be OTT. The section around Bath will need some special thought. I know on the ECML some folks were trying to get 3rd rail on the Royal Border Bridge in Berwick, and they came up with slimline masts to help. Trying to use the kit that is pictured here on the new builds will just antagonise the situation.
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I've never understood Germany's fascination with concrete. The mast issue is just bizarre though - I know the rate of replacement for comparable concrete lighting columns, local authority data would suggest their life expectancy, certainly in the UK, is way below that of treated steel columns, and even further below anodized aluminium columns, and I cannot believe Germany don't have the same issues with their concrete OLE masts.

More weirdness - Germany likes slab track on their high speed lines too, which is just wrong. It's all a bit of a nightmare to maintain; NR have the headache of Glasgow Queen Street's throat to deal with, which is a renewal of life expired slab track in addition to the wiring works that will be going on. That's a four month closure, largely because of the slab track issues.

Talking about slab track - there's an article in this month's Rail Engineer about our concrete v the European mainland's concrete, which might have a bearing on the issue too - maybe it's a UK concrete issue with our masts and lamp standards, and bits of Europe can make it work better than we ever could, though I notice Germany is very unusual in using concrete, almost everywhere else it's steel masts as per UK, France and Switzerland amongst many others, and even Germany has a huge amount of steel gantries and portal structures in and around their concrete masts, all with different mounting brackets and converting brackets.

Onto Series 1 related matters......

Taiwan are using UK Series 1 equipment too, for their new electrification project, but I can't remember if it's a new line or just electrification of an existing track.

Back to Bath - the Series 1 equipment is going in there as per the rest of the GWML route, but will feature bespoke mast/wall fittings in the Sydney Gardens area, essentially an in-keeping method of providing a bog standard attachment point for a bog standard set of cantilevers.

The drawings I have show the mast/twin track cantilever/attachment points matching the curvature of the overbridges in the area, so everything will look uniform and will blend in. There was talk of painting too, but I've not heard more about that, presuming weather galvanisation will be acceptable.
 
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Bald Rick

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Philip Phlopp said:
I've never understood Germany's fascination with concrete.
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I always assumed it was because Germany was a little short of steel making facilities after the 'second local difficulty' in the middle of the last century. Anything that could be substituted with concrete therefore was.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Philip Phlopp said:
More weirdness - Germany likes slab track on their high speed lines too, which is just wrong. It's all a bit of a nightmare to maintain; NR have the headache of Glasgow Queen Street's throat to deal with, which is a renewal of life expired slab track in addition to the wiring works that will be going on. That's a four month closure, largely because of the slab track issues.
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+1 to that. Strictly speaking, slab track is much easier to maintain, in that it doesn't need any, other than inspection and rail wear / age related maintenance. It is, however, an absolute pig to renew. As I once explained to a colleague who was advocating slabbing most of the WCML south of Rugby, on any given stretch of line you are swapping a couple of hours of tamper every couple of years for a multi week blockade every 40-60 years. And slab costs a lot more up front.
 
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Domh245

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The way I remember is by using headcodes. A 1xyz service would be running faster than a 2xyz, so series 1 is designed for quicker speeds (140mph)
 
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Orr have evaluated the first year of the control period. In this year North West electrification budget has been underspent by £63m yet Northern Hub has overspent by £77m because of reprofiling of timetabled work. EGIP underspent by £109m while East West Rail is £109m over budget, Thameslink was £58m over budget.

In a wider sense NR overspent on renewals by £324m mainly relating to track and track signalling renewal and the High Output train not being as efficient as hoped. However them being 13% below target efficiency was in part due to ORR setting the performance baseline as a 25% increase in efficiency this control period, so in a sense they achieved 50% of the target efficiency improvements and some of them such there being an 8% increase in the price of electricity was outside their direct control. ORR takes in a lot of mitigating factors and the actual performance determination is a lot more complex.

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...efficiency-and-finance-assessment-2014-15.pdf
 
LNW-GW Joint

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While a very detailed document, it doesn't really explain what is going on.
In many areas it looks as though NR are doing pretty well, with underspends in some areas.
The document doesn't really look at outputs, and I suspect that is where NR is falling down, delivering less than planned for the money spent.
The Route performance also shows LNW Route is in bad shape compared to the others with nearly all the indicators going the wrong way.
If you are looking for reasons behind the delay/cost increase of the electrification projects, you won't find them.
 
Philip Phlopp

Philip Phlopp

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LNW-GW Joint said:
While a very detailed document, it doesn't really explain what is going on.
In many areas it looks as though NR are doing pretty well, with underspends in some areas.
The document doesn't really look at outputs, and I suspect that is where NR is falling down, delivering less than planned for the money spent.
The Route performance also shows LNW Route is in bad shape compared to the others with nearly all the indicators going the wrong way.
If you are looking for reasons behind the delay/cost increase of the electrification projects, you won't find them.
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The reasons for delay/cost increases for the electrification are many and varied, can't remember if it's this or EGIP, but we had one bridge with an unidentified utility left on the bridge, nobody knew what it was for and who was responsible initially, think it turned out to be an old local gas network pipe and wasn't live, but it's a day or a couple of days for the utility to 'scramble' one of their investigative teams, maybe dig up some roads and if it's a busy area, traffic control, contraflows and so on.

High winds are a killer for the bridge rebuilding teams - bridge lifts being cancelled more than planned, more crane hire costs and something else in the program having to move to accommodate people and tools on site elsewhere.

Farnworth Tunnel we all know about.

It's just one of those things, but for every project that's running late, there's something that's coming in on time and on budget, but with the way contracts are negotiated and teams planned, finishing a day early might save, say, 1% of the budget, finishing a day late might overspend by 2% or 5%, so clawing things back when they've started to go pear shaped is very very difficult.
 
LDECRexile

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I went to Derbyshire to see my aunt today, which took me past Allerton Depot, courtesy of East Midlands Trains's admirable Lime St-Norwich service.

We recently saw how the depot extension has been opened, and very welcome that was, too. The wording on that publicity was very careful. The trackwork round the depot isn't complete (nor did anyone claim otherwise, I imply no criticism at all.)

As I passed:

1. Orangemen were there in numbers.
2. The headshunt is still closed. All its lineside masts now have arms attached , but no wires.

I've added some shots to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I had an unexpected afternoon off grandadding today, so I called at Prescot onmy way home.

I've added the resulting photos and films to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811
 
LDECRexile

LDECRexile

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snowball said:
Allerton Depot features on Network Rail's website today, both as a press release accessible via the press page, and as one of the half-dozen news items featured in rotation near the top of the front page:

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...ens-to-electric-trains-after-gbp-23m-makeover

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/news/2015/oct/allerton-electric-trains-depot/
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Er, neither senior manager wearing a single hi-vis or protective item?

Court Martial offence for the troops.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Paul and I went out and about yesterday, visiting Sankey Viaduct, Lowton and Bamfurlong, as well as some other sites outside this thread's scope.

I've added Paul's shots to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381

and added his and mine to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

A grand day out.
 
8A Rail

8A Rail

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As Sankey Viaduct has been featured recently, here is a side on image of the structure taken last week. To be honest, NR have done a reasonable job in regards to the placing of the mast's and associated stonework. I'm sure the latter will weather in due course.

21767665684_19e315ce28_c.jpg
 
LDECRexile

LDECRexile

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8A Rail said:
As Sankey Viaduct has been featured recently, here is a side on image of the structure taken last week. To be honest, NR have done a reasonable job in regards to the placing of the mast's and associated stonework. I'm sure the latter will weather in due course.

21767665684_19e315ce28_c.jpg
Click to expand...

Wonderful shot, thanks for sharing.
 
yorksrob

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Saw one of the Thameslink electrics looking very smart in what's left of the old Manchester Exchange today. To think I spent the 90's trying to avoid them (only because they're not as good as a CIG!).
 
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