Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[PDG1949]

So is the bridge any different from before the electrification started?

(Apologies, I'm not familiar with the site and haven't memorised any old pictures of it from the early days of the albums.)

This bridge and the 2 footbridges at Rainhill station (a listed site) did not comply with H & S and Euro protection clearances between the footbridge sides and wires, following the electrification. The immediate temporary solution was to erect marine plywood barriers to prevent the possibility of contact with the wires from the footbridges.

The first to be dealt with were the footbridges at Rainhill which had to be protected in a sensitive way in order to retain the ethos of its 'listed' status. The most recent to be dealt with was the Leach Lane footbridge further down the line towards St Helens Jct, (next to the remains of the original 1832 first 'cross-railway' bridge between the St Helens & Runcorn Gap and the Liverpool to Manchester lines). As can be seen, this is plainer than the Rainhill mesh raised parapets. AFAIK if I've got it correct, the current Euro protection height is 1.8m.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

AFAIK if I've got it correct, the current Euro protection height is 1.8m.

It is. Minor **** up at Stirling with regards to this though...

 

[QueensCurve]

It is. Minor **** up at Stirling with regards to this though...

Presumably this reported in the Daily Record:-

A showpiece rail bridge completed just over 12 months ago needs extra work to bring it up to European standards, it emerged this week.
Seaforth Bridge in Stirling’s Shore Road is one of a number of bridges that requires to have its parapets increased to 1.8 metres as part of electrification work on the Stirling/Alloa/Dunblane line and Glasgow-Edinburgh routes.
Network Rail has applied for planning permission to up the parapet height of eight rail bridges in Stirling Council area alone.
Higher parapets are required over electrified lines for safety reasons and to deter children from dangling wires over the edge.

No option for a derogation?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Presumably this reported in the Daily Record:-

No option for a derogation?

That's the one.

No option for derogation because the route isn't electrified yet. If the wiring had been up and energised, it would have been an option.

 

[LDECRexile]

I while ago I asked if anyone had seen anything suggesting a Sparks Effect on ridership since electrification. From memory, like me, no-one had more than hints.

Alex Hynes is interviewed in RAIL 799 (27 April-10 May 2016.) On Page 93 he is quoted as saying "We introduced electrics between Manchester and Liverpool, and passenger numbers rose 10%."

 

[YorkshireBear]

The parapet height is interesting. Despite it being an EU regulation we are the only country to have interporated it this way. Others have no created as much work for themselves.

 

[Domh245]

The parapet height is interesting. Despite it being an EU regulation we are the only country to have interporated it this way. Others have no created as much work for themselves.

I think it is fair to say that we have a slightly more rigorous approach to railway safety than most of the mainland when it comes to infrastructure. Our lines are relatively well fenced off, much more so than on the continent.

 

[LDECRexile]

I think it is fair to say that we have a slightly more rigorous approach to railway safety than most of the mainland when it comes to infrastructure. Our lines are relatively well fenced off, much more so than on the continent.

I visited my son in Germany last year and saw sights and sites which were unthinkable in the UK, such as tracks through fields with no fencing at all and major trackwork next to a main road with merely 18" high fenders separating works, trains and cars.

I asked a relative who works in railways in the UK, he said the legal regimes there and here are fundamentally different. In essence, if you drive a car into a train at a level crossing here things start from "it's the railway's fault" whereas in Germany things start from "its the motorist's fault."

 

[notlob.divad]

I think it is fair to say that we have a slightly more rigorous approach to railway safety than most of the mainland when it comes to infrastructure. Our lines are relatively well fenced off, much more so than on the continent.

But doesn't that come down to the origins of the railways where it was required that the railway kept people from trespassing on the landowners land.

Maybe this is an old wives tale I heard but it is exactly the kind of backward thinking I would expect in the UK
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I visited my son in Germany last year and saw sights and sites which were unthinkable in the UK, such as tracks through fields with no fencing at all and major trackwork next to a main road with merely 18" high fenders separating works, trains and cars.

I asked a relative who works in railways in the UK, he said the legal regimes there and here are fundamentally different. In essence, if you drive a car into a train at a level crossing here things start from "it's the railway's fault" whereas in Germany things start from "its the motorist's fault."

Poland is quite similar, whilst crossings do tend to have barriers of some description to stop people walking/driving in front of the train, I was on a train through a forested area and there where mountain bike tracks a couple of yards away from the line with nothing in between.

 

[LDECRexile]

Euston-Lime Street services were being diverted over Chat Moss yesterday pm and will be throughout today, offering unusual viewing and photographing opportunities.

I've added a poor quality shot I took yesterday evening from such a train, for the record.

It's here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Euston-Lime Street services were being diverted over Chat Moss yesterday pm and will be throughout today, offering unusual viewing and photographing opportunities.

Yes, it makes a change to run non-stop (slowly) through Piccadilly and Oxford Road.
An unchecked run is unlikely though. We followed the EMT service westbound to Deansgate yesterday, and caught up the Wigan stopper at Roby.
The VT conductor, very scouse, welcomed folk to the "great city of Manchester" as we passed through, "en route to the even greater city of Liverpool"
He also spent time telling people how to get to "the match" (Everton I believe) and where to find the best taxi rank.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The parapet height is interesting. Despite it being an EU regulation we are the only country to have interporated it this way. Others have no created as much work for themselves.

Wrong.

The new Tours-Bordeaux high speed line in France has bridge parapets at 1.8 metres, whilst Denmark is electrifying at 25kV, 50Hz and the tenders there include 1.8 metre parapets on bridges over lines to be electrified.

It's also not a bad thing even if we were the only country creating work for ourselves. Oxshott and the almost catastrophic incident that occurred when a cement mixer fell on a train, and then Froxfield (aka Big Trouble in Little Bedwyn) happened which could have been just as catastrophic.

Bridge parapets up and down the country are being rebuilt or bridges replaced, where once they were fitted with low quality brick or stone parapets, we're fitting reinforced concrete capable of deflecting the heaviest, largest lorries travelling at the road speed.

The new bridges and parapets are generally built to H4a standard, so capable of deflecting a 30 tonne vehicle travelling at 40mph (65km/h) and impacting at a 20 degrees angle, things like Oxshott were only rated to contain cars weighing 1.5 tonnes travelling at 50mph or 70mph, so we've got vastly better bridges capable of dealing with HGVs at the national speed limit on single carriageway roads now.

 

[coppercapped]

But doesn't that come down to the origins of the railways where it was required that the railway kept people from trespassing on the landowners land.

Maybe this is an old wives tale I heard but it is exactly the kind of backward thinking I would expect in the UK

Not quite. Most owners of land or property denote the extent of their possession by fencing it in one form of another. The fence doesn't have to be massive - it there simply to state 'This is mine' to reduce the incidence of boundary disputes.

However when the railways were being built the country was an essentially an agrarian society. If the railways were not fenced there would have been nothing to stop 'cattle sheep and swine' (as it says in my house deeds) from roaming from their owner's land, along the railway line and into the next farmer's land - who might not have been too happy with the pigs destroying his turnip crop. The fences had to be at least as sturdy as the ones around the farmers' fields.

Nothing to do with 'backward thinking', but all to do with practicalities.

In Germany and Poland cattle and pigs are keep indoors to a much greater extent than here. It's a question of climate more than anything else and, historically, wanting to stop the loss of animals by the marauding bands of bandits who roamed the lands during and after the 30 Years War. The history and the legal structures are different.

 

[Elecman]

But doesn't that come down to the origins of the railways where it was required that the railway kept people from trespassing on the landowners land.

Maybe this is an old wives tale I heard but it is exactly the kind of backward thinking I would expect in the UK
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yo are quite correct the original railway acts required a fence to prevent passengers and railway servants from trespassing on non railway owned land and had absolutely nothing to do with preventing 3rd party trespass onto railway land.

 

[DJH1971]

Euston-Lime Street services were being diverted over Chat Moss yesterday pm and will be throughout today, offering unusual viewing and photographing opportunities.

I've added a poor quality shot I took yesterday evening from such a train, for the record.

It's here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

And here are 2 pictures today at St Helens Junction:

 

[childwallblues]

Euston-Lime Street services were being diverted over Chat Moss yesterday pm and will be throughout today, offering unusual viewing and photographing opportunities.

I've added a poor quality shot I took yesterday evening from such a train, for the record.

It's here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

I was going to say that you would not get a good quality photograph due to poor seat configuration and you have proved it.

 

[LDECRexile]

I'm not sure I have proved it.

I had a seat facing forward matched to the window. I can't blame a pillar or similar.

The photo is crap due to the following, in descending order:

1. Incompetence
2. Having failed to move towards the rear of the train to get the benefit of curvature to show the 390's front
3. Turning into bright, low sunlight
4. Outside windows not very clean

Nevertheless, I reckon a crap shot is better than no shot, people can always ignore it, but if it ain't there people don't have the choice.

I am repeatedly struck by the feedback I get on photos I've posted where shots I think are "good" (clear, sharp etc) get nowt, but many which are technically poor strike chords with people due to their content, despite their lack artistic merit.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wrong.

The new Tours-Bordeaux high speed line in France has bridge parapets at 1.8 metres, whilst Denmark is electrifying at 25kV, 50Hz and the tenders there include 1.8 metre parapets on bridges over lines to be electrified.

It's also not a bad thing even if we were the only country creating work for ourselves. Oxshott and the almost catastrophic incident that occurred when a cement mixer fell on a train, and then Froxfield (aka Big Trouble in Little Bedwyn) happened which could have been just as catastrophic.

Bridge parapets up and down the country are being rebuilt or bridges replaced, where once they were fitted with low quality brick or stone parapets, we're fitting reinforced concrete capable of deflecting the heaviest, largest lorries travelling at the road speed.

The new bridges and parapets are generally built to H4a standard, so capable of deflecting a 30 tonne vehicle travelling at 40mph (65km/h) and impacting at a 20 degrees angle, things like Oxshott were only rated to contain cars weighing 1.5 tonnes travelling at 50mph or 70mph, so we've got vastly better bridges capable of dealing with HGVs at the national speed limit on single carriageway roads now.

I was speaking in general. If you actually look, the amount of scenarios in the UK where a 1.8m parapet is required is far more than in both the countries you just mentioned. I can find the direct quotes in the standards if you wish?

Never said it was a bad thing. Simply didn't want an 'EU imposing rules on the UK' conversation to develop.

Upgrading their crashworthiness is definitely a very good thing to do. Although of course some parapet works cannot incorporate this due to the cost. All the new bridges with electrification have substantial parapets that far dwarf their predecessors.

 

[LDECRexile]

I went past Allerton Depot yesterday, it looks done and dusted:

no signs of Orangemen, their kit or caboodle
no signs or taping or fencing closing off areas such as the headshunt
319s on many tracks
1960s wiring to the headshunt removed
silver sheen on the headshunt suggesting some traffic.

What does that leave still to do?

Roby-Huyton 4th track
Sankey Viaduct cleaning
Footbridge between Lea Green and St Helens Jct (I can't remember if it's been done)

Owt else?

 

[DJH1971]

I went past Allerton Depot yesterday, it looks done and dusted:

no signs of Orangemen, their kit or caboodle
no signs or taping or fencing closing off areas such as the headshunt
319s on many tracks
1960s wiring to the headshunt removed
silver sheen on the headshunt suggesting some traffic.

What does that leave still to do?

Roby-Huyton 4th track
Sankey Viaduct cleaning
Footbridge between Lea Green and St Helens Jct (I can't remember if it's been done)

Owt else?

The footpath between Lea Green and St Helens Junction reopened a couple month ago. That makeshift wooded guard has been replaced by much more suitable and permanent metal guardings.

Oh, and they need to sort our the 319's reliability issues.

 

[childwallblues]

One thing that they did at Allerton was to remove the connection between the head shunt and the Northern Line.
As a result when the 2327 Oxford Road to Lime Street terminated last week at Hunts Cross due to engineering works the ecs had to run back to Oxford Road then to Lime Street via Chat Moss and finally to Allerton Depot.

 

[notlob.divad]

One thing that they did at Allerton was to remove the connection between the head shunt and the Northern Line.
As a result when the 2327 Oxford Road to Lime Street terminated last week at Hunts Cross due to engineering works the ecs had to run back to Oxford Road then to Lime Street via Chat Moss and finally to Allerton Depot.

And there will presumably be a lot more of that kind of fun during the Weaver-Wavetree re-signalling and the Lime Street Blockade next year.

 

[PDG1949]

One thing that they did at Allerton was to remove the connection between the head shunt and the Northern Line.
As a result when the 2327 Oxford Road to Lime Street terminated last week at Hunts Cross due to engineering works the ecs had to run back to Oxford Road then to Lime Street via Chat Moss and finally to Allerton Depot.

Now if they'd kept the link between St Helens Central and St Helens Junction (and electrified it of course) that would be far less of a problem, but I won't start - I think we've all been there before , haven't we?

 

[LDECRexile]

You may have seen excellent photos published recently by 8A_Rail which show a very welcome new service on the Huyton-St Helens-Wigan branch, ie the return of sand trains to St Helens' glassmakers after years of road-only provision.

Paul Gaskell - a St Helens man - has kept his ear to the ground and an eye on Real Time Trains and managed to track down and photograph such a train being unloaded.

As you will see, the train is split and reversed into what Trackmaps labels "Ravenhead Works Pilkington Glass Oil Sidings" (Map 42B) where it is unloaded onto lorries by a grabber. The lorries take the sand the last short hop to the relevant plant.

This very welcome development comes years after sand last arrived by rail.

I have added Paul's shots to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381

and to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633

Thank you Paul

 

[8A Rail]

You may have seen excellent photos published recently by 8A_Rail which show a very welcome new service on the Huyton-St Helens-Wigan branch, ie the return of sand trains to St Helens' glassmakers after years of road-only provision.

Paul Gaskell - a St Helens man - has kept his ear to the ground and an eye on Real Time Trains and managed to track down and photograph such a train being unloaded.

As you will see, the train is split and reversed into what Trackmaps labels "Ravenhead Works Pilkington Glass Oil Sidings" (Map 42B) where it is unloaded onto lorries by a grabber. The lorries take the sand the last short hop to the relevant plant.

This very welcome development comes years after sand last arrived by rail.

I have added Paul's shots to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157649792560381
and to the Combined Volume here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633
Thank you Paul

First thank you for your kind comments. You be interested to know that today's train operated later then scheduled and ran as a VSTP, arriving Ravenhead at approx 12.35hrs. I did manage to photographed the train approaching St Helens Signal Box @ 12.30hrs and an image will appear on Flickr site (https://www.flickr.com/photos/8arail/) in due course.

Likewise, the empty train still manage to depart over an hour early and arriving back at Arpley Sdgs nearly 90 minutes early.

 

[LDECRexile]

Yesterday I published six shots of the very welcome new sand train being discharged at St Helens, taken by Paul Gaskell.

For reasons best known to my psychiatrist I put them in a Blackpool-Manchester album.

I've moved them to the Liverpool-Manchester album, here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

More haste, less speed.

 

[edwin_m]

Yesterday I published six shots of the very welcome new sand train being discharged at St Helens, taken by Paul Gaskell.

For reasons best known to my psychiatrist I put them in a Blackpool-Manchester album.

I've moved them to the Liverpool-Manchester album, here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

More haste, less speed.

Subliminal subconscious response to the mention of sand, must be something to do with Blackpool?

 

[PDG1949]

Has anyone heard anything more about the proposed cleaning of the Sankey Viaduct stonework ? I drove past today and there was more graffiti than ever on it !

Or has the money run out ??

If not, maybe the graffiti artists could be paid to do the job - at least they're not scared of heights....

 

[8A Rail]

Has anyone heard anything more about the proposed cleaning of the Sankey Viaduct stonework ? I drove past today and there was more graffiti than ever on it !
Or has the money run out ??
If not, maybe the graffiti artists could be paid to do the job - at least they're not scared of heights....

By co-incidence, I was taking an image 66745 (on 6E27 to Drax) as it was crossing the north side of the viaduct at approx 19.30hrs yesterday - I must admit I was taken back by the amount of graffiti along the top of the viaduct which is a disgrace! Likewise, the area in front of the viaduct needs major tree clearance too as leave it any longer and you wont know that a viaduct is there!

Graffiti artists pay for it - how you propose to do that if you dont know who they are unless they are caught at the time. Clearly they are trespassing on the Viaduct in order paint their graffiti, that is for sure.

 

[Billyblue]

Huyton 4th Track

Signs have gone up at Huyton Hey Car Park notifying closure from Tuesday 6 Sept until May 2017 to facilitate the installation of the missing link!

Apologies for the lack of a photo of the notice. I didn't have my phone on me!!