Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[childwallblues]

Glad someone has spotted that. Yes it is a bit crap that its falling over and is likely to be late, but what does this actually prevent? Northern will only have two 319s? There certainly arent any timetable changes that are dependant on this, it is just a bit of a PR mess for everyone.

1
I am now confused. You say Northern will only have two 319s. Well 319361 and 319363 are already at Allerton so I assume that those are the two units that you are referring to. Are you then saying that 319362/64/65 will return to Bedford when they are released from Wolverton?
For the record Lime Street-Manchester Airport requires three x Class 156 to maintain an hourly service.

 

[ian959]

1
I am now confused. You say Northern will only have two 319s. Well 319361 and 319363 are already at Allerton so I assume that those are the two units that you are referring to. Are you then saying that 319362/64/65 will return to Bedford when they are released from Wolverton?
For the record Lime Street-Manchester Airport requires three x Class 156 to maintain an hourly service.

I believe it is a reference to having only 2 319s available for passenger use - the other available units being used for driver training purposes

 

[8A Rail]

I believe it is a reference to having only 2 319s available for passenger use - the other available units being used for driver training purposes

Correct. There is definitely three Class 319 units at Allerton already with 319380 being the other. I thought there was a fourth one there already but may be a figment of my imagination?

 

[Whistler40145]

AFAIK 319380 is only on loan for driver training.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thank you for this informative and interesting reply, which shows the bigger picture.

I assume by "the western side" you mean West of the WCML.

Will diverting the resources kybosh all hopes of an early start to any Phase 2 services, or might it still be possible to get one or more of Lime St-Wigan NW or Lime St -St Helens Central or Lime St-Warrington BQ up and running soonish?

As I understand the situation, the first electric operation will be 2 of the 3 units required for the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service. The third diagram, plus Liverpool - Manchester Victoria, and Liverpool to Wigan NW (and, maybe, Preston) will follow some time in 2015 (or even 2016), as/when more 319s become available.

I don't think that Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay has a long term future if they proceed with the suggested 2 trains per hour to Manchester Victoria.

 

[LDECRexile]

As I understand the situation, the first electric operation will be 2 of the 3 units required for the Liverpool - Manchester Airport service. The third diagram, plus Liverpool - Manchester Victoria, and Liverpool to Wigan NW (and, maybe, Preston) will follow some time in 2015 (or even 2016), as/when more 319s become available.

I don't think that Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay has a long term future if they proceed with the suggested 2 trains per hour to Manchester Victoria.

Very interesting, thank you.

Any idea when Liverpool-Man Air might get cracking?

Is it worth a fiver on 31st Dec or thereabouts?

 

[Class377/5]

Thank you for this informative and interesting reply, which shows the bigger picture.

I assume by "the western side" you mean West of the WCML.

Will diverting the resources kybosh all hopes of an early start to any Phase 2 services, or might it still be possible to get one or more of Lime St-Wigan NW or Lime St -St Helens Central or Lime St-Warrington BQ up and running soonish?

Yes I did mean the western side of WCML.

From what I've heard/read over the weekend, there's an outside chance of Liverpool to Manchester in January but there is multiple issues behind the delays including issues with ground conditions at Huyton. Its not one big cause but lots of smaller ones including some gear installed but not signed off.

 

[LDECRexile]

From what I've heard/read over the weekend, there's an outside chance of Liverpool to Manchester in January but there is multiple issues behind the delays including issues with ground conditions at Huyton. Its not one big cause but lots of smaller ones including some gear installed but not signed off.

Having talked to people on the ground near Huyton last week I'm not surprised by your mention of ground conditions there, notably the very steep and narrow embankments on the North side by the Archway Road bridge.

I have also been struck by the lack of signs of activity on Sankey Viaduct, is that a sign that things there are hard or easy?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes I did mean the western side of WCML.

From what I've heard/read over the weekend, there's an outside chance of Liverpool to Manchester in January but there is multiple issues behind the delays including issues with ground conditions at Huyton. Its not one big cause but lots of smaller ones including some gear installed but not signed off.

Weirdly one reason I heard this week was that a lot of the contractors road-rail plant supposed to work in the Huyton area were out of service due to safety concerns. That could tie in to ground conditions being too dangerous for them.

 

[edwin_m]

Having talked to people on the ground near Huyton last week I'm not surprised by your mention of ground conditions there

That comment prompted a vision of a forum poster and some orange-clad "people on the ground" having a conversation, both buried up to their waists in quicksand.

 

[LDECRexile]

That comment prompted a vision of a forum poster and some orange-clad "people on the ground" having a conversation, both buried up to their waists in quicksand.

In which case we would all be as clear as mud. Hmmm, sounds about right!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
See today's "RAIL" (RAIL 758 p8) where a Network Rail spokesman is quoted as saying the electrified railway will not be ready for use by December 2014.

The article expands on the reasons and promises a formal, clear statement before long.

 

[Class 170101]

That comment prompted a vision of a forum poster and some orange-clad "people on the ground" having a conversation, both buried up to their waists in quicksand.

Well at this rate NR might as well be up to their neck in it the mess they are making here and elsewhere.

 

[DJH1971]

I believe we might hear something today regarding delays to phase 2.

 

[Class377/5]

Weirdly one reason I heard this week was that a lot of the contractors road-rail plant supposed to work in the Huyton area were out of service due to safety concerns. That could tie in to ground conditions being too dangerous for them.

One issue according to Rail is wires snapped on a wiring train injuring a worker. Not good.

 

[swt_passenger]

One issue according to Rail is wires snapped on a wiring train injuring a worker. Not good.

That'll be the incident described towards the end of the article about NW electrification which was linked to from the GW electrification thread here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1927293&postcount=556

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Between Roby Jn and Huyton Jn the mast count is now about 10, almost all at the Roby Jn end.
There is just one solitary mast between Huyton station and junction, in front of the bus station on the north side.
About 5 metal piles are positioned on end either side of Roby station on the north side, ready to be vibrated in.
There are more ready by the trackside. That might explain the absence of concrete bases on that side.

The wires starting at Rainhill now run through Lea Green and peter out just before the platforms at St Helens Jn.
Earth wires then restart alongside the Bold Colliery site and run beyond Collins Green.
About half the masts in the Earlestown area are now up, including a couple of portals. The Warrington platform has masts except a couple at the west end.
Apart from the covered platform excavations, there was no sign of work at Earlestown or Rainhill stations.
On the Wigan branch, wires now run from Prescot to Pilkington's, much of it complete. This includes a stretch through the rock cutting at Thatto Heath.
Steelwork continues to go up across the WCML junction at Springs Branch.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Between Roby Jn and Huyton Jn the mast count is now about 10, almost all at the Roby Jn end.
There is just one solitary mast between Huyton station and junction, in front of the bus station on the north side.
About 5 metal piles are positioned on end either side of Roby station on the north side, ready to be vibrated in.
There are more ready by the trackside. That might explain the absence of concrete bases on that side.

The wires starting at Rainhill now run through Lea Green and peter out just before the platforms at St Helens Jn.
Earth wires then restart alongside the Bold Colliery site and run beyond Collins Green.
About half the masts in the Earlestown area are now up, including a couple of portals. The Warrington platform has masts except a couple at the west end.
Apart from the covered platform excavations, there was no sign of work at Earlestown or Rainhill stations.
On the Wigan branch, wires now run from Prescot to Pilkington's, much of it complete. This includes a stretch through the rock cutting at Thatto Heath.
Steelwork continues to go up across the WCML junction at Springs Branch.

Great news - I love steady progress.

 

[WatcherZero]

One issue according to Rail is wires snapped on a wiring train injuring a worker. Not good.

That may explain the delay in commisioning the wiring portion of the HOPS train then if it had a similar setup.

 

[DJH1971]

But still no word from NR yet.

Thought the September update for CP5 was due out today?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That may explain the delay in commisioning the wiring portion of the HOPS train then if it had a similar setup.

They are different designs.
The GW/Amey train is from Windhoff and NR-specified, while the NW/Balfour train is their own design and built by Geismar (also intended to be used on the Crossrail section of the GW route).
http://www.bbrail.co.uk/news-article/Electrification_investment_TRE

Personally I don't see any connection between the problems of the two projects, or with the Thameslink rewiring court case which used cherry pickers.
Looks like 3 sets of problems to me, all of them unwelcome.

 

[WatcherZero]

While built by different contractors they may use the same equipment as they both perform the same function, tensioned rather than untensioned wire spooling.

 

[DJH1971]

Anyone know more about the CP5 update?

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyone know more about the CP5 update?

Don't expect it for a few days. They weren't published reliably on any particular day of the month throughout CP4 - it varied a lot from quarter to quarter, up to a few weeks or more into the following month.

 

[LDECRexile]

I have updated the "Where we're up to" spreadsheet following yesterday's report and having invested in the amazing "Railway Track Diagrams" Midlands & North West.

It is attached below.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have updated the "Where we're up to" spreadsheet following yesterday's report and having invested in the amazing "Railway Track Diagrams" Midlands & North West.
It is attached below.

Excellent work.
I wonder what the official NR project chart says...

Rail today has some interesting quotes from an NR spokesman on the delays.
"There could be a day's delay or two weeks' delay".
"NR was making every effort to deliver an electrified railway by 2015".

 

[DJH1971]

Excellent work.
I wonder what the official NR project chart says...

Rail today has some interesting quotes from an NR spokesman on the delays.
"There could be a day's delay or two weeks' delay".
"NR was making every effort to deliver an electrified railway by 2015".

Still hope then!

 

[snowball]

Depends whether "by 2015" means the beginning or end of the year!

 

[Class 170101]

I have updated the "Where we're up to" spreadsheet following yesterday's report and having invested in the amazing "Railway Track Diagrams" Midlands & North West.

It is attached below.

Very informative diagram but I couldn't find an explanation of the colours. Have a missed something?

 

[DJH1971]

Very informative diagram but I couldn't find an explanation of the colours. Have a missed something?

And still nothing on Sankey Viaduct.

Surely not long now?

 

[LDECRexile]

Very informative diagram but I couldn't find an explanation of the colours. Have a missed something?

I started off expecting to have a few colours, such as "Electrified for years" and "Fully wired recently." When I came to do the beast it turned out there are all sorts of shades, eg fully wired, several wires up, return wires on both sides, return wire on one side. I've therefore ended up with some colours showing clear things such as black=fully wired recently, with other shades being made on the fly. The text next to each different section is the clearest guide to what's what.

Perhaps something like purple, red, yellow and black as at present, with shades of blue for different levels of electrification and different browns for different levels of mastification. Trouble is, that could end up more trouble than it's worth both to devise and maintain.

I've also experimented with 1. trying to show scale rather than just mileages and/or 2. trying to add a summary, eg 5m 27ch fully wired recently but ended up disappearing you know where.

I would welcome you taking the prototype and developing it along these or other lines (ha ha), I ain't precious about it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can anyone please help me?

I went out and about today and have added 24 photos to the Picasa Web Album I have used on this site for some time. So far, so good.

I then went into it in the usual way by clicking on the first of the newly added photos to start adding descriptions. Instead of bringing up the image and inviting me to add a caption it takes me, unbidden, to a screen whereby I can order an image. I can't see any options from that screen to get me back to where I want to go and the back arrow takes me to the first image of the Album, but without any navigation arrows, so I'm up a blind alley.

I've tried everything I can think of to circumvent this. I've powered right down and switched my machine back on. Logged off and on and so on, every time the same, it behaves normally until I click on any image in the Web Album and then I'm stumped.

There are 405 images in there now. Have I infringed some size limit?

I'm off out in half an hour, back about 22:30.