Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Whistler40145]

Cheers for the info.

 

[LDECRexile]

I've added 14 Allerton Depot shots to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811

 

[muddythefish]

I travelled on a 319 from Bedford - Blackfriars today; they really are poor outdated trains and I do feel sorry for Lancashire rail users having these substandard old units foisted on them. Return journey was on a 377 and the difference was staggering - and they are set to be replaced I believe by 700s in the near future. Northern rail users really do deserve better than this second-class treatment.

 

[ianhr]

I travelled on a 319 from Bedford - Blackfriars today; they really are poor outdated trains and I do feel sorry for Lancashire rail users having these substandard old units foisted on them. Return journey was on a 377 and the difference was staggering - and they are set to be replaced I believe by 700s in the near future. Northern rail users really do deserve better than this second-class treatment.

Yes but the trains that they are replacing, 142s and 150s in particular, are truly dreadful.....it's questionable whether the Pacers are worthy of the description 'train' at all as the ride quality and passenger environment are far inferior to a modern bus!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But a 319 is basically an electric 150. The gain is capacity.

 

[DJH1971]

I travelled on a 319 from Bedford - Blackfriars today; they really are poor outdated trains and I do feel sorry for Lancashire rail users having these substandard old units foisted on them. Return journey was on a 377 and the difference was staggering - and they are set to be replaced I believe by 700s in the near future. Northern rail users really do deserve better than this second-class treatment.

If the 319's are second class, the Pacers must be something like 15th class!

 

[Jonny]

I travelled on a 319 from Bedford - Blackfriars today; they really are poor outdated trains and I do feel sorry for Lancashire rail users having these substandard old units foisted on them. Return journey was on a 377 and the difference was staggering - and they are set to be replaced I believe by 700s in the near future. Northern rail users really do deserve better than this second-class treatment.

My view is that the interiors may need smartening up, but the one time I was on a Class 319 it was pretty lively, especially on AC compared to the 377s which may be newer but didn't seem particularly good performance-wise.

 

[ianhr]

But a 319 is basically an electric 150. The gain is capacity.

Try getting your legs behind the face to back seats in a 150 and you will realise the difference, quite apart from the noise and vibration levels. An increase in capacity is precisely what is needed in peak hours and Saturdays.

 

[AM9]

My view is that the interiors may need smartening up, but the one time I was on a Class 319 it was pretty lively, especially on AC compared to the 377s which may be newer but didn't seem particularly good performance-wise.

That would be the exception, maybe some motors were not operating.
The Electrostars should be faster, after all they have 2000bhp per 4 cars on ac whereas the 319s are 1340bhp, but the 319s were designed for Thameslink and have performed well in that role over the last 25 years.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Try getting your legs behind the face to back seats in a 150 and you will realise the difference, quite apart from the noise and vibration levels. An increase in capacity is precisely what is needed in peak hours and Saturdays.

I agree, I can't believe that those denying that the 319s are a great improvement on 150s have actually been on both types of stock. Even with the fairly benign duties that the NW lines demand the 319s have made a marked difference to comfort and punctuality. Some of the recovery capability will no doubt be traded for faster journey times when the timetable goes 'electric'. By then, the slow trains (Pacers, & Sprinters) getting in the way of the more capable trains, (185s and 319s) will be less likely.

 

[LDECRexile]

I'm delighted to have received photos and films taken yesterday by Bill from Huyton and Paul Gaskell.

I've added Bill's to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648707438634

and Paul's to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157649792560381

I've also added them, plus a dollop of my own, to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811

Thank you Bill and Paul.

 

[LDECRexile]

Progressometer updated below.

 

[edwin_m]

That would be the exception, maybe some motors were not operating.
The Electrostars should be faster, after all they have 2000bhp per 4 cars on ac whereas the 319s are 1340bhp, but the 319s were designed for Thameslink and have performed well in that role over the last 25 years.

Electrostars feel much smoother and quieter due to more modern motors and no opening windows. On DC power they are also subject to traction current limits that may limit the power available, and therefore also the acceleration particularly as they are heavier than 319s.

 

[WatcherZero]

Having had a chance to review a couple of 319 journeys today

Good:
More Legroom
wider aisles
Overhead luggage rack coverage
good acceleration from standing

Bad:
Noisier than Sprinters, though not as noisy as pacers
Significant hunting, not as bad as a tram but a lot worse than other heavy rail rolling stock
overhead luggage racks are deceptively small due to ceiling shape
Acceleration at higher speeds poorer
Internal doors, guard left them open whenever he went through and they would be flapping all over the place.

 

[muddythefish]

Having had a chance to review a couple of 319 journeys today

Good:
More Legroom
wider aisles
Overhead luggage rack coverage
good acceleration from standing

Bad:
Noisier than Sprinters, though not as noisy as pacers
Significant hunting, not as bad as a tram but a lot worse than other heavy rail rolling stock
overhead luggage racks are deceptively small due to ceiling shape
Acceleration at higher speeds poorer
Internal doors, guard left them open whenever he went through and they would be flapping all over the place.

I'm familiar with all those failings; the 319s are an electric version of the Pacers in my view - just awful. Only the 317s are worse.

If you could spirit a 377 north rail users might not be so happy with the 319s when they see what southern travellers are accustomed to.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm familiar with all those failings; the 319s are an electric version of the Pacers in my view - just awful. Only the 317s are worse.

If you could spirit a 377 north rail users might not be so happy with the 319s when they see what southern travellers are accustomed to.

Don't start another north versus south debate. Our the simple fact the cost of a 377 for Northern would be massive, twice that atleast of a 319.

 

[LDECRexile]

Having had a chance to review a couple of 319 journeys today

Good:
More Legroom
wider aisles
Overhead luggage rack coverage
good acceleration from standing

Bad:
Noisier than Sprinters, though not as noisy as pacers
Significant hunting, not as bad as a tram but a lot worse than other heavy rail rolling stock
overhead luggage racks are deceptively small due to ceiling shape
Acceleration at higher speeds poorer
Internal doors, guard left them open whenever he went through and they would be flapping all over the place.

Very interesting observations, mine differ in some respects:

Legroom, layout and views seem like 150s, better than FGW refurbished Airline seats HSTs but not as good as Pacers or 156s.

Noise seems very dependent in which carriage you are riding in.

Acceleration felt poor at 0-20 mph (guessestimates) but Wow! at 20-50 mph. My local Merseyrail 507s and 508s seem quicker out of the blocks.

I see 319s as Middle Distance Runners, the Seb Coes and Steve Ovetts of the EMU world, fab for Lime St-Manchester Airport semi-fasts, less so for stoppers, though they win win win over 14x/15x in terms of capacity and new-look ambience.

They also make a statement. Maybe, just maybe, the days of subsidising yesterday are to be replaced with investing for tomorrow.

On more solid ground, I'm delighted that Paul Gaskell has sent me more photos and Phil Wieland has released the ones he used on his fab site:

http://nw-sparks.blogspot.co.uk/

as well as others he didn't use

I've added Paul's to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157649792560381

and added Phil's to his album here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157650238941151

I've added them all to the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811

Thank you Paul and Phil.

 

[WatcherZero]

Would be a bit unfair to compare acceleration to 507/508, the 319's are essentially for Express Sprinter routes where they may touch 100, while the the Merseyrail stock never have to exceed 75 and a lot of the route is considerably slower for example limits are less than 35 in city centre so more akin to regular Sprinters.

 

[QueensCurve]

Bad:
Noisier than Sprinters, though not as noisy as pacers

Surely quieter than a DMU?

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Is there any evidence (observational, anecdotal or otherwise) of increased passenger numbers on these services? Is a 'sparks effect' more likely to materialise with a new (faster) timetable?

 

[Peter Lanky]

Is there any evidence (observational, anecdotal or otherwise) of increased passenger numbers on these services? Is a 'sparks effect' more likely to materialise with a new (faster) timetable?

It would be hard to quantify any passenger increase at such an early stage, but I suspect that when people know that they can get on a train in Lime St without feeling like the proverbial sardine, and finding the doors locked 5 minutes prior to departure because it's physically impossible for anyone else to get on, that they may feel more inclined to use the service in future.

Previous bad press will take a lot of overcome.

I've never been convinced that a faster timetable is as big a draw for passengers compared with the benefits of a train departing and arriving at the time that the timetable says that it will. I'd prefer that a 90 minute timetabled journey took 90 minutes than one which claims to take 60 minutes taking 80 minutes. If the trains are reliable, the passengers will come, I'm sure.

 

[WatcherZero]

Surely quieter than a DMU?

They have very noisy electric motors with poor sound insulation in the saloon.


Funny thing was one one of the journeys the train had three guards as one was being trained on 319's, perhaps the staff were bored as they were very chatty to passengers and kept coming up and striking up conversations uninvited. One of their conversation starters was moaning about the obsolete signal bells saying they miss the more modern system on their DMU's.

 

[Billyblue]

Is there any evidence (observational, anecdotal or otherwise) of increased passenger numbers on these services? Is a 'sparks effect' more likely to materialise with a new (faster) timetable?

It's going to be very difficult to compare like for like figures and any starting point would need to be from before electrification work, and all the associated closures and bus replacements, started.

Bear in mind, also, that substantial housing developments have/are taking place very close to Lea Green, Huyton, Roby and Broadgreen stations. There's free parking at LG and the new houses, in BG, are just a few minutes walk from the station (which also has free parking)

I don't have any references to quote but anecdotal evidence suggests passenger numbers increase by around 20%, when a service is upgraded. Increased seating capacity may encourage occasional users to become regular users as may increasing city centre car parking charges.

Personally, I don't think the (future) slightly improved times will be much of a factor as many of the local journeys are comparatively short.

 

[nw-sparks]

The situation at the moment is that in the timetable database, there are no Sunday Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss trains after Sunday 6 September, and there are no Saturday Liverpool to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss trains after 24 October.

When I noticed this last year, I assumed it was for the Ordsall Chord works which, when these timetables were drafted in the second half of 2014, were expected to begin this year, for completion in 2016.

However, as has been pointed out, the published paper timetables all seem to show normal services, and Ordsall Chord has been delayed, so I would expect the paper timetables to be correct and the missing trains to appear in the database in due course.

We are well outside the 3 month window for these dates, so there is no reason for the timetablers to rush to update the database, as long as they do it by early July. I wonder if they'll be inserted as electric services? Probably not.

Update: Timetable database updates this morning have extended the running dates of the Sunday Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Chat Moss trains to the full life of the timetable. (i.e. Until 6 December). I imagine the Saturday Victoria services will be similarly updated soon.

The revised schedules are still labelled as DMUs.

 

[topgun390]

Out with 390 test run off Edgehill to Newton Le Willows in the morning between 02.30/0530 am 21/05/15
no path in as yet but geared up to run.

 

[AM9]

They have very noisy electric motors with poor sound insulation in the saloon.

If you sit above the motor bogies with the windows open, the pinion drives on all nose-hung motors can have a whine at speed when accelerating, but they go much quieter when cruising as the load is taken off the gears. Rheo braking is also much smoother on them than just discs. Conversely they make very little noise when starting. Their transformers also seem to hum a lot less than those on some other DC motored ac EMUs. Maybe it's an effect of the chopper motor drive.
Compare that with a 150 revving up before the wheels even turn and I thinks there's no competition. The vibro-massage of course comes free with the roar and it's available in every coach whether you want it or not because there are no trailers on Sprinters.
If 150s were geared to get to 90mph on the chat moss line, I would imagine that they would thrash for a long time getting there and the engine would certainly make its presence known even just holding that speed.
I've not yet travelled in a Pacer so I can't compare. I have though been in a lot of buses running on smooth roads.

 

[DJH1971]

Update: Timetable database updates this morning have extended the running dates of the Sunday Liverpool - Manchester Airport via Chat Moss trains to the full life of the timetable. (i.e. Until 6 December). I imagine the Saturday Victoria services will be similarly updated soon.

The revised schedules are still labelled as DMUs.

But is the actual reason for the closure known yet?

Is it for the Ordsall Chord or for the fourth track between Huyton to Roby?

 

[ed1971]

If you sit above the motor bogies with the windows open, the pinion drives on all nose-hung motors can have a whine at speed when accelerating, but they go much quieter when cruising as the load is taken off the gears. Rheo braking is also much smoother on them than just discs. Conversely they make very little noise when starting. Their transformers also seem to hum a lot less than those on some other DC motored ac EMUs. Maybe it's an effect of the chopper motor drive.
Compare that with a 150 revving up before the wheels even turn and I thinks there's no competition. The vibro-massage of course comes free with the roar and it's available in every coach whether you want it or not because there are no trailers on Sprinters.
If 150s were geared to get to 90mph on the chat moss line, I would imagine that they would thrash for a long time getting there and the engine would certainly make its presence known even just holding that speed.
I've not yet travelled in a Pacer so I can't compare. I have though been in a lot of buses running on smooth roads.

I have not actually had a ride on a 319 yet , so I cannot personally comment on the noise of these units.

However, I would be very surprised if they are not a big improvement on noise compared to 150s. The very noisy Cummins NTA855 engines on these are 1960s technology and have been used on DMUs in various countries from the 1960s. An example is this 1966 Japanese built Taiwan Railway DR2700 DMU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ9VRgcrCtY . From what I gather they are essentially a marine engine.

The Pacers on the other hand had their Leyland TL11 engines replaced by new Cummins L10s in the mid 1990s. The L10 is a newer engine that was introduced in 1982 and is markedly quieter.

 

[nw-sparks]

But is the actual reason for the closure known yet?

Is it for the Ordsall Chord or for the fourth track between Huyton to Roby?

There is no point in closing east of Newton for Huyton four tracking, so I'm fairly sure it was for the Ordsall Chord, but it isn't happening. Probably next year.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Out with 390 test run off Edgehill to Newton Le Willows in the morning between 02.30/0530 am 21/05/15
no path in as yet but geared up to run.

1Z39 04:02 Liverpool Lime Street High Level to Newton-Le-Willows
1Z40 04:30 Newton-Le-Willows to Liverpool Lime Street High Level

have just popped into the database.

 

[Class 170101]

1Z39 04:02 Liverpool Lime Street High Level to Newton-Le-Willows
1Z40 04:30 Newton-Le-Willows to Liverpool Lime Street High Level

have just popped into the database.

Out with 390 test run off Edgehill to Newton Le Willows in the morning between 02.30/0530 am 21/05/15
no path in as yet but geared up to run.

What would the testing be for this time? Pendolinos have been along these lines quite a bit now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What would the testing be for this time? Pendolinos have been along these lines quite a bit now.

I think it was posted on here at the time that the previous tests did not use 390s which have all the OHLE monitoring gear, so they have to do them again.
Evidently it hasn't stopped electric services running over the line.