Manchester Metrolink master thread

[WatcherZero]

Nothing on the immediate horizon, I expect we will see a slew of proposals after the tram-train trial. What they seem to be focusing their attention on again is the proposed Trafford Centre line.

 

[HSTEd]

Nothing on the immediate horizon, I expect we will see a slew of proposals after the tram-train trial. What they seem to be focusing their attention on again is the proposed Trafford Centre line.

Is that the Sheffield-Rotherham trial? when is that actually supposed to be happening?

 

[WatcherZero]

2013 or soon after. Despite it taking forever to begin construction its still considered 'accelerated'.

 

[HSTEd]

Are these going to be dual voltage 25kV/750V tram-trains? Im just thinking that it would have to take the Wakefield line from Sheffield to Rotherham which could leave it in the way of a future 25kV electrification of the Midland Main Line to Leeds scheme.

 

[WatcherZero]

No its only going to be 750v the whole length, they are also going to be lowering platform heights. Its testing performance on heavy rail track and signalling, not with 25kv or dual electrification.

The Dft is also retaining ownership of the four trams they will order and the OHLE after the trial is finished, they reserve the right to redeploy the resources elsewhere. So they may stay and become Supertram assets, be redeployed into another trial elsewhere in the country, or just be scrapped. Not sure what the trial duration will be but I imagine something between one and three years.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the tram-trains were to be Northern Rail operated.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes Northern Rail is in charge of commisioning and operating the trial, but the assets are retained by the Dft when it ends. Northern Rail cant take them over itself or deploy them elsewhere on its network unless the Government releases them/sells them.

Same way Virgin was appointed to commission the extra Pendolino but couldnt use them without Government permission.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have just received a construction progress update on the South Manchester line from St Werburgh's Road to Parrs Wood. It states that capping stone has now been laid along the entire length of the final 4.5 km route and that the very last sections of drainage, ducting and OLHE bases are now being installed in preparation for ballast stone being laid ahead of track works.

Withington stop...Lighting columns have now been erected.

Burton Road stop...Fully excavated and foundations are being installed for the platforms, stairs and lift shaft.

West Didsbury stop...Stop Equipment Room,stairs, lift shaft and finishing to the retaining walls have all now been completed. The final drainage works are now scheduled to commence.

Didsbury Village stop...Platform units are now being positioned.
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I am not sure if this information has already been posted but TfGM on their media centre have a link to a letter from ORR signed by Brian Kogan dated 7th October 2011 in the matter of the confirmation of the formal closure ratification notice that confirms the closure of the Mosley Street Metrolink stop, after consideration of all submissions received.
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On the matter of the Oldham/Rochdale Metrolink line, TfGM have notified that the electrification of the overhead power lines from Central Park through to temporary Oldham Mumps was scheduled to take place on 16th November 2011 and that they should be considered "live" from that date. TfGM has written to 4,400 affected residents on that route and with that letter have included the following two leaflets:-

Living near a Metrolink line

Working safely near Metrolink

 

[northwichcat]

Loadings on the Chorlton line still aren't picking up.

I got to Market Street today at just after 4pm. The first tram to arrive was a St Werburghs Road tram, it left Market Street with just 10 people on board. A Piccadilly tram followed which was full and standing, then an Altrincham tram which I got left even fuller than the Piccadilly tram and by the time it got to Deansgate-Castlefield it was so full that it was leaving passengers behind.

Altrincham-Bury services really need to go back to doubled up operation, like they were before the St Werburghs Road service started.

 

[Nym]

M<ight get busyer when it gets extended a bit further, or if they wern't stupidly expensive.

 

[futureA]

M<ight get busyer when it gets extended a bit further, or if they wern't stupidly expensive.

True, it might also get busier when the frequency increases but I think the pricing is too high at present.

 

[Nym]

But thats the same of all of Metrolink, it's too expensive. And not integrated enough.

 

[WestCoast]

But thats the same of all of Metrolink, it's too expensive. And not integrated enough.

Don't get me started on the limited integration policy on UK public transport outside London....

Metrolink's ticketing is odd, I've never come across a system, where the stop you board at, dictates the price of an entire network day ticket.

 

[radamfi]

I wonder if there will be a better attempt at fare integration once the current extensions to the Metrolink network are finished.

 

[Nym]

Well, I think that all tram systems that link into NR tracks, they should join ATOC.

And then ticketing should be integrated with ATOC, so at shared stations like Meadowhall, Soon to be Rotherham, Alty, Rochdale etc. would be intergrated fully. In a similar way to 'London Overground'

I would also have the likes of Metrolink through Navigation Road using both platforms, and 4 track put back where possible to have limited stop Tram-Train units running up and down onto the Mid Cheshire onto Chester and Crewe, terminating at either Piccadilly via St Peters' Square. Or if it can be provided, into the bays at Oxford Road, new viaduct, Oxford Road re-build.

Integrated ticketing would be nice, and the services classed as 'tram-train' for the 'Metrolink Franchise' would be 4 car units (tram length cars) with the ability to run off 750V (750V busbar), 25KV OHL (Rectifier to DC 750V), and two ~500-600hp generators, and a retention toilet (set to only release on segregated running).

These Tram Trains could run to...
Metrolink:
Chester via Alty
Crewe via Alty and Middlewitch
Rawthenstall via Bury
Rochdale via Bury & Castleton

With some new track:
Warrington via Lymm? (On street tram track to the outskirts of Broadheath, then normal tracks, light rail standard, unelectrified through Lymm and upto the WCML)
Chinley / Hazel Grove via Cheadle Heath?
Stopping services on the CLC? I'm thinking 4 to 6tph..

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would also have the likes of Metrolink through Navigation Road using both platforms, and 4 track put back where possible to have limited stop Tram-Train units running up and down onto the Mid Cheshire onto Chester and Crewe, terminating at either Piccadilly via St Peters' Square.

Are there no longer any freight trains that use the Stockport - Navigation Road - Altrincham route? If so, I thought they had to be kept separate from any light rail services, as is the reason why the heavy rail access route into the waste compaction depot just past the former Dean Lane station will be kept separate from the new Metrolink station there and this will be similar to the current situation at Navigation Road station with parallel heavy rail and light rail single lines.

 

[northwichcat]

M<ight get busyer when it gets extended a bit further, or if they wern't stupidly expensive.

Metrolink from Chorlton to Manchester is cheaper than the bus, unlike the other routes where Metrolink is a more expensive, faster and more frequent option.
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Are there no longer any freight trains that use the Stockport - Navigation Road - Altrincham route? If so, I thought they had to be kept separate from any light rail services, as is the reason why the heavy rail access route into the waste compaction depot just past the former Dean Lane station will be kept separate from the new Metrolink station there and this will be similar to the current situation at Navigation Road station with parallel heavy rail and light rail single lines.

There are 2-3 return freight operations per day that go through Navigation Road, travelling between the quarries in Derbyshire and the Brunner Mond works near Northwich, in addition to infrequent other freight trains.

If Metrolink was to share the line with freight or other passenger trains then all Metrolink services to Altrincham would need to be tram-train. If that happened it would also allow passenger trains and freight to use the line through Sale to reach Deansgate heavy rail station, subject to other factors such as signalling and weight of units allowed on the newly laid track.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If Metrolink was to share the line with freight or other passenger trains then all Metrolink services to Altrincham would need to be tram-train. If that happened it would also allow passenger trains and freight to use the line through Sale to reach Deansgate heavy rail station, subject to other factors such as signalling and weight of units allowed on the newly laid track.

Have TfGM ever made any tentative comments about any future tram-train operation over any of the existing Metrolink routes or do they only see the existing Metrolink system as a status quo with the current four line expansion, followed by further expansions to the Metrolink network.

 

[northwichcat]

Have TfGM ever made any tentative comments about any future tram-train operation over any of the existing Metrolink routes or do they only see the existing Metrolink system as a status quo with the current four line expansion, followed by further expansions to the Metrolink network.

They see tram-train as possible Pacer replacement on some services in particular, Rose Hill Marple to Manchester and Wigan to Manchester via Atherton.

In terms of the Mid Cheshire line the favoured approach is a 20 minute frequency tram-train between Northwich and Manchester via Sale, in addition to the current service but TfGM won't be leading plans for tram-train operation on the Mid Cheshire line as Altrincham-Northwich is mainly outside of their area.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In terms of the Mid Cheshire line the favoured approach is a 20 minute frequency tram-train between Northwich and Manchester via Sale, in addition to the current service but TfGM won't be leading plans for tram-train operation on the Mid Cheshire line as Altrincham-Northwich is mainly outside of their area.

Will it be possible for any rail body to force TfGM to share their Metrolink operational routes in any of the areas currently within the TfGM remit and to ensure that any such route is reinstated to the correct level to take any new type of services that may well need this better infrastructure? Will TfGM be financially liable for any such infrastructural changes deemed necessary?

Who and what is the "favoured approach" to which you make reference to on the Mid-Cheshire Line?

 

[northwichcat]

Will TfGM be financially liable for any such infrastructural changes deemed necessary?

A Northwich-Altrincham-Sale-Manchester diesel or dual-powered tram-train could be implemented with no changes to the infrastructure what-so-ever. It is still possible to cross between the heavy rail and light rail sections in the Altrincham area and that access is used for Metrolink engineering works.

There might be changes that can be made to increase efficiency of such an operation, such as improved turn back facilities but they wouldn't need to be made before it's introduced on a trial basis.

TfGM would need to get involved as it would involve running on existing Metrolink lines. However, they can't propose running a Northwich-Manchester service, unless they work jointly with other councils.

Who and what is the "favoured approach" to which you make reference to on the Mid-Cheshire Line?

The preferred option in the opinion of MCRUA and Cheshire East Council.

 

[HSTEd]

How are Tram Trains affected by the Railways Act?
Would they be open access operators while on Network Rail metals?

And would the council operated Blackpool tram system be barred from running Tram-Trains under the provisions of said Railway Act?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The preferred option in the opinion of MCRUA and Cheshire East Council.

As you say, just as much as TfGM have no authority to speak on affairs outside their area remit (unless you count the rail services entering into the Derbyshire areas of Hadfeld/Glossop), the same must surely apply to either MCRUA or Cheshire East Council when discussing rail transport matters that happen within the area administered by TfGM, who seem adamant that the Metrolink is their preferred option of light rail travel in areas suitable for this method of usage.

 

[Nym]

As usual the potentially fantastic transport solutions are forgotten thanks to political boundaries...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As usual the potentially fantastic transport solutions are forgotten thanks to political boundaries...

...and the realities of life in the real world for schemes that need paying for with real money.:roll:

 

[Samtron2000]

A Northwich-Altrincham-Sale-Manchester diesel or dual-powered tram-train could be implemented with no changes to the infrastructure what-so-ever. It is still possible to cross between the heavy rail and light rail sections in the Altrincham area and that access is used for Metrolink engineering works.

Altrincham would need to be completely remodelled!! Yes there is a connection between heavy-light, but it is mearly a connection from manc bound heavy to alty bound light. You certainly couldnt run a regular service over it!! Presumably you would have to remodel deansgate jct to return navi rd back to up/down platforms. But then it's all fantasy eh!

 

[Nym]

Are there no longer any freight trains that use the Stockport - Navigation Road - Altrincham route? If so, I thought they had to be kept separate from any light rail services, as is the reason why the heavy rail access route into the waste compaction depot just past the former Dean Lane station will be kept separate from the new Metrolink station there and this will be similar to the current situation at Navigation Road station with parallel heavy rail and light rail single lines.

Oh... forgot about the freight segregation thing, since the plans I have would mean 18tphpt either side of nav road, it could get a tad crowded on the one platform, perhaps transfering all tram-train services North of Navigation Road, keeping all heavy and tram train services on one side, and the current tram only timetable on the other side?

Would also prevent local passengers using the Tram Train services to get into Alty/Manc from Nav Road, and if TT Services were running under National Rail rather than Metrolink, would keep that segregation quite nicely.

Would basically mean the same service levels for Metrolink at Navigation Road's 'Metrolink' Platform, and more services, ie. All Tram-Train services on the Network Rail platform, and no messing around moving from one platform t'other at Alty, handle it all at Nav Road.

Then if four tracking where put back in, keep it paired by use up to Sale, then have the junction at the 2 track pinchpoint there (Since limited stop Tram-Trains will call at Sale) and then move on from there paired by direction so that dropping to 2 track and widening to 4 track can happen more often in the form of 'slow line passing loops'

So in the end we'd have:

Alty: Network Rail 2 track through, Metrolink 2 track terminating, Tram trains on Network Rail Metals
Nav Road: Each drops to 1 track for the station, Tram Trains still on Network Rail metals (electrified at 750VOHL if available)
North of Nav Road, back out to 4 track, with the lines to Stockport diverging and 2 track of Network Rail and Metrolink lines continuing North. (Possibly single track towards sale for a short time due to restrictive former bridges)
If a single track link, this then merges into the Metrolink lines at the reversing siding south of Timperley, handing over to Metrolink infersturcture.

Doing the minimum work, Tram Trains can now run...

Basically, a little bit more pointwork between the Network Rail metals and Metrolink metals just north of Navigation Road would do it fine, would be a little bit too much single track for my liking, but if 2 track was provided between this junction and Navigation Road, and between Navigation Road and Alty, there shouldn't be too much waiting around. Especially if it then calls all stations into manchester thanks to no passing loops being added (these could always come later). 3tph then run onto Chester via Alty and 2tph onto Crewe via Middlewitch, could either be formed of the Alty - Piccadilly services, or slotted in, giving 15tph between alty and manc.

 

[northwichcat]

I was just about to post something re: Navigation Road infrastructure.

Ideally you'd want any tram-trains to use the heavy rail platform at Navigation Road so if at an existing signalling point between Navigation Road station and Deansgate Junction you add facilities to allow tram-trains to switch lines it isn't a major remodelling and solves the issues raised. Metrolink services between Timperley and Altrincham are controlled by Network Rail signals as it is.

Metrolink services will always be restricted to one platform at Navigation Road unless TfGM uses tram-trains on all Metrolink services to Altrincham.

 

[Nym]

Aye, I recon it could use TTs on the Piccadilly terminators and extend them on to Chester and Crewe in the first instance, (My tram trains would be a fixed 4 car formation btw), and if the demand is there, start looking into providing some passing loops and four track north of Sale to have limited stop services for the Tram Train services, and return some standard trams to get back up to 10tph Trams and 5tph Tram Train, but initally, 5tph Tram (Alty - Bury) and 5tph Tram-Train Chester & Crewe - Piccadilly should be fine IMO.

And IF the demand is there for more services, provide more and make the TramTrains limited stop, (further increasing demand due to faster journey times). There is also the option of extending through from south of Hale to Manchester Airport using Tram Trains, returning to Tram style infrastructure after Sale, for say, 3tph Chester, 2tph Airport (If they don't want to go to Crewe) But I can personally see a market for via Middlewich, and the track is there, just need a platform and a ticket hut.

 

[northwichcat]

Trains between Chester and Greenbank are fairly quiet in the off-peak during school term time, so it would make a lot more sense for tram-trains to start/terminate at Northwich or Greenbank and to call at just Knutsford and Hale to give faster journey times to and from Manchester.

It'll also complicate the franchise between RATP and TfGM too much to replace existing trams and replace them with tram-trains and it would face objections from Northern Rail.

It has been suggested that Middlewich could be reopened if Network Rail did like what they did with Workington North as a temporary measure and rebuilt the station fully when more funds are available but Network Rail rejected that idea.