Manchester & North West Transformation Programme

[507020]

SPEED option taken - P3 will be the turn back with 2 through platforms. A typo in my earlier post - P2 will be extended through the closure of P1.

Hopefully this would make crew changes there impossible?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

No, two Blackpools. Keep it simple, keep it consistent.

Everywhere else change at Preston?

 

[507020]

Everywhere else change at Preston?

I would very much like to be able to do that from Southport…

 

[Pinus contorta]

The Cumbria services are a political necessity - cutting off a world heritage site from it's nearest airport would not be good. It's also important to remember that they form part of 4tph to Preston from the Airport - which is a perfectly reasonable proposition.

Lots of Japanese tourists visiting , valuable income stream, won't go down well with the Tourist Industry knocking direct services on the head.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Everywhere else change at Preston?

No.

I was specifically saying that for Preston, 2tph is enough. That is, wanting 4tph from Preston to Castlefield and Manchester Airport is not a good reason to keep things as they are. I was just replying to a post stating Preston (in and of itself) needed 4tph to Manchester Airport, which it really doesn't. Two long 6 car trains are quite enough. That doesn't mean that there being 3 or 4 is a problem, just that Preston doesn't in and of itself justify 3/4.

There are other reasons to keep things as they are, such as access to connections and flights from Cumbria. I think these are less strong for the Scottish service.

 

[Greybeard33]

According to RTT, the xx28 arrivals from Leeds (via Halifax) and xx58 return departures are booked to use P1 at Victoria, and indeed I witnessed the 1128 arrival doing so a couple of weeks back.

And there is still an hourly service to Leeds via Bradford starting from Victoria in the December 2022 timetable. Departure of this service from P1/2 conflicts with all other moves into or out of Victoria on the east side. And in the medium term the 111m length of P1 will not allow sufficient capacity on this route (P2 is only 96m).

 

[snowball]

Referring to P15/16

That's amazing news, though why do they need a new design when there's the one in the TWAO?

 

[Sonik]

That's amazing news, though why do they need a new design when there's the one in the TWAO?

I'd guess because scope has changed?

 

[td97]

SPEED option taken - P3 will be the turn back with 2 through platforms. A typo in my earlier post - P2 will be extended through the closure of P1.

Ok, thanks.

That's amazing news, though why do they need a new design when there's the one in the TWAO?

Value engineering, updating to more recent surveys, updated operational requirements, implementing new technologies/products developed since previous design stage etc.

 

[Purple Orange]

Piccadilly/Oxford Rd services from Bolton to Manchester must be loaded 2-3x as much as the Victoria services. It's where most people want to go.

Why do you think people want to go to Piccadilly over Victoria? Piccadilly is situ in the south east cor of the city for a start, which is a bit of a distance from many popular areas. A 6-car 331 from Blackpool will be just as popular from Victoria as it will be from Piccadilly.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why do you think people want to go to Piccadilly over Victoria? Piccadilly is situ in the south east cor of the city for a start, which is a bit of a distance from many popular areas. A 6-car 331 from Blackpool will be just as popular from Victoria as it will be from Piccadilly.

Because more services go to and terminate at Piccadilly than Victoria? Also, Piccadilly is the London station.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I would very much like to be able to do that from Southport…

Me too. Reinstate the curves!

 

[snowball]

Will P15-16 need to restart the whole TWAO process from the beginning?

 

[Purple Orange]

Because more services go to and terminate at Piccadilly than Victoria? Also, Piccadilly is the London station.

That’s a chicken & egg situation. Plus if you’re coming from Preston, why would you need to connect at Piccadilly for London?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Will P15-16 need to restart the whole TWAO process from the beginning?

Please no - surely to goodness it does not need to go right back to square one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the development plans for the land area in the Mayfield station area were published, were any Piccadilly station though-line viaduct widenings allowed-for?

 

[Purple Orange]

When the development plans for the land area in the Mayfield station area were published, were any Piccadilly station though-line viaduct widenings allowed-for?

The Star & Garter pub was to be protected from the expanded station, therefore if the pub is ok, then the plans across the road at Mayfield will be fine too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s a chicken & egg situation. Plus if you’re coming from Preston, why would you need to connect at Piccadilly for London?

It's very often cheaper on Advances due to offering three times the capacity (if you don't count the very slow service via Brum), while on a walk-up you get to board at the start so get a better choice of seats. Lots of people do it.

Also don't forget that there are lots of stations between Preston and Manchester where people might also want to go to London without going north first.

But nobody is seriously proposing all services from that corridor going to Vic, are they, i.e. mothballing the Windsor Link?

Edit: seems you are, and it's nuts.

 

[dunc695]

Why does every service from Barrow and Windermere have to go to Manchester? Is that really where everyone wants to go or are we just assuming it is? Seems to me these services are forcing people to go to Manchester whether they like it or not.

And on top of which when there's issues en route the whole timetable of those lines goes pear shaped, sometimes for hours. The Windermere Branch was far more reliable when it was a self contained shuttle.

There's barely a day goes by when something isn't cancelled it's not great is it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does every service from Barrow and Windermere have to go to Manchester?

They don't. In the hours when Barrow gets a direct service Windermere doesn't, and vice versa.

Is that really where everyone wants to go or are we just assuming it is?

A lot are changing at Lancaster for London etc or making a local journey on the Barrows - at some times of day those turn over passengers almost completely between Preston and Lancaster with most seemingly making a local journey to Lancaster or changing for London or Birmingham. On the Windermeres there is very considerable through traffic; the Lakes is a default "day out" destination from Manchester, while it's mostly a "local train for local people" towards Barrow, give or take a bit of tourist demand at Grange. I've long suggested that if/when Windermere is wired an hourly through Windermere service with Barrow as a connection (ideally from Preston as connections are better than Lancaster) may actually make some sense.

Seems to me these services are forcing people to go to Manchester whether they like it or not.

What a nonsensical statement. Nobody is forcing anybody to go anywhere, there aren't security guards preventing them getting off at intermediate stations.

And on top of which when there's issues en route the whole timetable of those lines goes pear shaped, sometimes for hours. The Windermere Branch was far more reliable when it was a self contained shuttle.

Unreliability is presently caused by high levels of staff sickness. It's all over Northern and would still be the case were it a shuttle - indeed, a shuttle would see the whole service cancelled for long periods if the traincrew went sick rather than just one or two services.

There's barely a day goes by when something isn't cancelled it's not great is it.

No, it's not great, but the cause is Northern* being understaffed, not the Lakes/Cumbria service which has generally operated reliably in a vaguely similar pattern for over 25 years.

* COVID means sickness in all industries is higher than it was, not because of what COVID is, but because there's one more disease "going round" than there was in 2019 that, even if you don't care about transmission, renders someone unable to safely do a safety critical job due to fatigue etc. This is going to be with us for the foreseeable, so companies in all industries need to staff up a bit to cover it, not just the railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why does every service from Barrow and Windermere have to go to Manchester? Is that really where everyone wants to go or are we just assuming it is? Seems to me these services are forcing people to go to Manchester whether they like it or not.

One might well ask the question in reverse....why does every service start from Manchester? Windermere is a major tourist destination of note that many Manchester area people have visited for years. It was even better in the days when TPE ran there with the class 185 units as first-class accommodation was available to be booked with seat reservations that my wife and I always used when travelling from Manchester Airport station. The line northwards from Lancaster on the Barrow-in-Furness line calls at interesting places such as Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One might well ask the question in reverse....why does every service start from Manchester? Windermere is a major tourist destination of note that many Manchester area people have visited for years. It was even better in the days when TPE ran there with the class 185 units as first-class accommodation was available to be booked with seat reservations that my wife and I always used when travelling from Manchester Airport station. The line northwards from Lancaster on the Barrow-in-Furness line calls at interesting places such as Grange-over-Sands and Ulverston.

Replied in a new thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-is-the-best-way-to-serve-barrow-and-windermere.233497/

 

[Purple Orange]

It's very often cheaper on Advances due to offering three times the capacity (if you don't count the very slow service via Brum), while on a walk-up you get to board at the start so get a better choice of seats. Lots of people do it.

Also don't forget that there are lots of stations between Preston and Manchester where people might also want to go to London without going north first.

But nobody is seriously proposing all services from that corridor going to Vic, are they, i.e. mothballing the Windsor Link?

Edit: seems you are, and it's nuts.

I’d say there is reason for there being services from the Bolton corridor to Piccadilly, but I‘d argue the emphasis of the line should be heading to Victoria. The Windsor Link worked for a period where the railway was in decline and Piccadilly was to be the focus of the rail network, but we are not in that world anymore. Furthermore, central Manchester is far bigger than just where you can walk to/from Piccadilly.

 

[dunc695]

It was more reliable when TPE operated the service with 185s. It seems to have gone somewhat downhill since.

I grew up in Cumbria and barely ever remember cancellations or problems aside from the occasional unit breakdown when the Windermere Branch service was self contained.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was more reliable when TPE operated the service with 185s. It seems to have gone somewhat downhill since.

I grew up in Cumbria and barely ever remember cancellations or problems aside from the occasional unit breakdown when the Windermere Branch service was self contained.

As I said, there's been the tiny matter of COVID happened between now and then, which has permanently increased sickness levels in all businesses by adding another disease to the pot that will render someone unsuitable for safety critical work until it's resolved. This will increase the cost of operating a TOC unless they cut their services accordingly. There isn't a business in the world that won't be affected. This won't change unless/until* a vaccine that actually prevents symptomatic illness rather than just making it milder is available.

The through service was perfectly decent in e.g. the late 1990s when it operated a pattern similar to now and was operated by Regional Railways. The concept isn't flawed, what's flawed is Northern's staffing level.

* The nasal spray vaccines do look promising.

 

[WesternBiker]

Please no - surely to goodness it does not need to go right back to square one.

Entirely dependent on what has changed. If (for example) it is something that will affect third parties differently, then DfT could reasonably (from their perspective...) ask that the consultations are done again. TWAOs are complex beasts at the best of times, so the devil is in the detail...

 

[Greybeard33]

I understood there were plans for 3 through platforms with the bay relocated to the island between current P2 & P3. Having more than 2 through platforms is invaluable operationally for late-running crew changes, terminating short of destination, and allowing regulation of late running services.

SPEED option taken - P3 will be the turn back with 2 through platforms. A typo in my earlier post - P2 will be extended through the closure of P1.

I hope that the reduction in through platforms at Oxford Road will not be implemented before Piccadilly P15/16 are available to provide a replacement location for service regulation and crew changes.

Otherwise this "SPEED" option could be a repeat of the May 2018 Ordsall Chord fiasco - any incident in the corridor will cause gridlock.

 

[dunc695]

Only TWO through platforms at Oxford Road?! Sounds like that will make the corridor even worse not better.

At this rate Castlefield will always be a bottleneck.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is 3 to be a turnback only, i.e. buffer stops at the Picc end? If it remained signallable as a reversible through platform, it could at least be used for emergency overtakes if there isn't a terminating service there (the terminating service could of course be cancelled and sent off elsewhere if needs be).

 

[Watershed]

Is 3 to be a turnback only, i.e. buffer stops at the Picc end? If it remained signallable as a reversible through platform, it could at least be used for emergency overtakes if there isn't a terminating service there (the terminating service could of course be cancelled and sent off elsewhere if needs be).

I don't think there is enough space for it to be of a useful length without buffers. That's the reason for the mess that Oxford Road is now; removing and realigning platforms won't substantively help with that.