Manchester & North West Transformation Programme

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone think the word "Transformation" in the project title will actually live up to its name?

 

[The Planner]

What stations would be served by the hourly Manchester to Wigan via Golborne service?

Eccles, Patricroft and Golborne presumably.

 

[Manutd1999]

What stations would be served by the hourly Manchester to Wigan via Golborne service?

Eccles and Patricroft I guess

I could see there being a half-hourly stopper from Victoria (or maybe Castlefield) to Eccles, one continuing to Wigan via Golborne and the other continuing to Liverpool (as per today).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Eccles and Patricroft I guess

I could see there being a half-hourly stopper from Victoria (or maybe Castlefield) to Eccles, one continuing to Wigan via Golborne and the other continuing to Liverpool (as per today).

Would the passenger loadings on a service only stopping at Eccles, Patricroft and Golborne to Wigan be sufficiently high enough to justify the aspirational frequency?

 

[The Planner]

Would the passenger loadings on a service only stopping at Eccles, Patricroft and Golborne to Wigan be sufficiently high enough to justify the aspirational frequency?

Probably yes once you factor in Wigan, it will be a quick run at around 33-34 minutes if it can get a decent path.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably yes once you factor in Wigan, it will be a quick run at around 33-34 minutes if it can get a decent path.

What is the reason for the low speed limit that occurs when you leave the line of the Manchester to Liverpool railway and onto the connecting lines that take you on to the West Coast Main Line?

 

[The Planner]

What is the reason for the low speed limit that occurs when you leave the line of the Manchester to Liverpool railway and onto the connecting lines that take you on to the West Coast Main Line?

Curvature I suspect.

 

[snowball]

Railway Gazette:

Locally guided £72m rail plan aims to unblock northern rail capacity

UK: Rail Minister Huw Merriman announced a £72m programme of investment for the network in Greater Manchester during a visit to Manchester Victoria station.

www.railwaygazette.com

UK: Rail Minister Huw Merriman announced a £72m programme of investment for the network in Greater Manchester during a visit to Manchester Victoria station on May 25.

This will fund a third platform at Salford Crescent and track improvements at Salford Central and Manchester Victoria to help reduce bottlenecks, delays and station overcrowding. Manchester Victoria station will also gain extra platform entry and exit points to improve passenger flow at busy times.

The Department for Transport said the announcement follows £84m of government investment ahead of the December 2022 timetable change, which included funding for platform extensions for longer electric trains. ‘As a result, delays across central Manchester have already decreased by 40% compared to 2019-20 levels, exceeding initial expectations’, DfT said.

Plans around demand not infrastructure

Northern Trains Performance & Planning Director Rob Warnes said the latest package is designed to improve performance and enable services to be planned around passenger demand rather than the available infrastructure.

‘Currently many trains that arrive from Leeds go into a terminal platform at Victoria after crossing over the layout, using up capacity. Once the improvements have been made, the services from Leeds will continue through Victoria on the other side of the layout and run through to Salford Central where they will terminate in sidings beyond the station and turn back.

‘This allows us to better connect Salford from West Yorkshire and it also means that a train that currently has to cross the diagram to terminate here, blocking trans-Pennine traffic, will be able to run on through to Salford. There will also be a pair of turnbacks at the northeastern end of Victoria.’

He explained that ‘one of the current service groups is Leeds to Wigan, and that’s not a natural fit but it is constrained by the infrastructure. When more trains started to serve Victoria, there wasn’t room to terminate them, so they had to go through to somewhere. We also have to run longer trains at certain times to hit Leeds, but we have to bring them all the way from Wigan.

‘What we want to do is create a second Leeds to Salford service, leading to one that goes via Brighouse and one via Bradford, and terminate both at Salford Central.

‘The service from Wigan will then come in and terminate at Victoria. Eventually, we’ll able to do some more swaps of destinations because we’ll have the Wigan – Bolton electrification by then; the sidings will enable us to reconfigure a lot of north Manchester.

‘Meanwhile, putting the third platform in at Salford Crescent means that the signallers will get more choice in the ordering of the trains as they come into Salford. That will give them a better chance of hitting north Manchester in the right order and in the right time slots, and for many services there will be a performance benefit by not having the weave across the diagram.’

Manchester Task Force

The plan is based on recommendations from the Manchester Task Force, a cross-industry body including Network Rail, Transport for Greater Manchester, Transport for the North and train operators.

Merriman told Rail Business UK that ‘the Manchester Task Force guided us into how we spend the £72m. I’ve walked around [Victoria] station and can see the bottlenecks and the interventions that can be made. There’s too much dwell time in the station and the idea of delivering more sidings means they can reduce that.

‘We’ve got longer trains and newer trains, so the extra platform at Salford Crescent will be great assistance there as well. These interventions that are actually guided by the local rail industry and the stakeholders are the best way to deliver.’

Managing Director of Network Rail’s North West & Central Region Tim Shoveller said the latest plans are ‘a really good example of how the Manchester Task Force has worked, because the original thought was to put the turnbacks at Victoria. Working together has brought the right result and the good thing is that it hasn’t gone through a load of GRIP stages — in fact in some cases it’s been done by people standing on the platform making decisions after having a look and saying that’s the right thing to do.

‘It’s a practical way of making change happen quickly. The important thing is we are creating the infrastructure to deliver the train service rather than the other way round, which has happened all too often’, Shoveller added.

 

[cle]

This is the best write-up so far, giving details on the turnbacks and future service pattern. Most have been just a single talking point about the new platform, said three ways.

Sounds like it'll be 2tph Victoria-Bolton-Wigan and then 2tph Salford Central-Leeds (one via Brighouse, one via Bradford) - and alludes to the former likely going to Stalybridge in time, once wired? The Kirkby/Southports should then go to Rochdale, being diesel still.

Curious on if anything from Victoria will run to the Chorley line, though...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Affter these proposals take place, because I am unsure of what may happen, what services are planned to terminate in the east-facing terminal bay platforms 1 and 2 at Manchester Victoria railway station?

 

[Manutd1999]

This is the best write-up so far, giving details on the turnbacks and future service pattern. Most have been just a single talking point about the new platform, said three ways.

Sounds like it'll be 2tph Victoria-Bolton-Wigan and then 2tph Salford Central-Leeds (one via Brighouse, one via Bradford) - and alludes to the former likely going to Stalybridge in time, once wired? The Kirkby/Southports should then go to Rochdale, being diesel still.

Curious on if anything from Victoria will run to the Chorley line, though...

That actually sounds like quite a sensible way to organise the Victoria services, with everything paired to run at a half-hourly frequency. The end result would be something similar to the original "Option C" proposed by the Recovery Taskforce. It will also give a new link from the Calder Valley to Salford, which could be useful for some commuters.

1 (or 2ph) Chester - Victoria - Rochdale - Leeds
2ph Salford C - Victoria - Rochdale - Leeds
2ph Blackburn - Bolton - Victoria - Rochdale - (1ph continue to Blackburn)
2ph Southport/Kirkby - Wigan - Atherton - Victoria

4ph TPE (somewhere) - Victoria - Leeds - (somewhere)
2ph Victoria - Stalybridge - Huddersfield
2ph Wigan - Bolton - Victoria - Stalybridge

 

[Greybeard33]

Affter these proposals take place, because I am unsure of what may happen, what services are planned to terminate in the east-facing terminal bay platforms 1 and 2 at Manchester Victoria railway station?

The Victoria bay platforms 1 and 2 are only 4-car length and are on the wrong side of the station for services to/from the Rochdale line. I imagine they will no longer be used once the new sidings and electrification enter into service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Victoria bay platforms 1 and 2 are only 4-car length and are on the wrong side of the station for services to/from the Rochdale line. I imagine they will no longer be used once the new sidings and electrification enter into service.

If they are not used, does that present an opportunity to fill them in and redesign the concourse to be more passenger-friendly and not all be crammed in under the arena bridge?

 

[Manutd1999]

The Victoria bay platforms 1 and 2 are only 4-car length and are on the wrong side of the station for services to/from the Rochdale line. I imagine they will no longer be used once the new sidings and electrification enter into service.

Post TRU, they could be well suited to the Huddersfield stoppers. 4-car is plenty for those services.

This assumes that the Piccadilly services would become the 2ph "semi-fasts", with 4ph "fast" and 2ph "stopper" from Victoria.

 

[Greybeard33]

If they are not used, does that present an opportunity to fill them in and redesign the concourse to be more passenger-friendly and not all be crammed in under the arena bridge?

Might the statement that...

Manchester Victoria Station will also benefit from extra entry and exit points to platforms, making it easier for passengers to travel through the station during busier periods.

...imply that the bay platform area might be re-used to extend the concourse?

Post TRU, they could be well suited to the Huddersfield stoppers. 4-car is plenty for those services.

This assumes that the Piccadilly services would become the 2ph "semi-fasts", with 4ph "fast" and 2ph "stopper" from Victoria.

It also assumes that there will be the demand for 4ph stoppers between Victoria and Stalybridge. Otherwise the 2ph Huddersfield EMU stoppers could continue to Wigan.

Alternatively, the proposed Oxford Road remodelling might release capacity for 2ph stoppers from the Stalybridge line to go round the Ordsall Chord to Castlefield, rather than terminate in the Vic bays.

The information released so far does not give many clues as to what service patterns the MTF is considering that far in the future. Indeed, there are likely to be several options, which in due course will be put out for public consultation before a recast is finalised.

 

[Viscount702]

Do we think Wednesday's announcement will have any effect on the workings of the task force in light of the fact that no specific mention was made about Manchester capacity in the alternative schemes.

Also when is work supposed to start on the third platform and turnbacks.

 

[Greybeard33]

Do we think Wednesday's announcement will have any effect on the workings of the task force in light of the fact that no specific mention was made about Manchester capacity in the alternative schemes.

I think you have answered your own question!

However, there is the small matter of the £12bn the Government has "committed" to NPR Manchester - Liverpool:

33.We will also invest £12 billion [2023 prices] to better connect Manchester to Liverpool. This
would allow the delivery of Northern Powerhouse Rail as previously planned,
including high-speed lines. But we will work with local leaders to agree
whether they wish to suggest other ways to achieve the objectives within that
cost envelope.

Network North

A £36 billion plan to improve the transport that people use every day.

www.gov.uk

If "local leaders" (presumably TfN and the metro mayors) request that this funding is redirected to upgrading the Chat Moss and CLC lines, together with the cross Manchester corridors, rather than on constructing the HS2 tunnel from Piccadilly to Davenport Green, it could truly be transformative!

 

[geoffk]

I think you have answered your own question!

However, there is the small matter of the £12bn the Government has "committed" to NPR Manchester - Liverpool:

Network North

A £36 billion plan to improve the transport that people use every day.

www.gov.uk

If "local leaders" (presumably TfN and the metro mayors) request that this funding is redirected to upgrading the Chat Moss and CLC lines, together with the cross Manchester corridors, rather than on constructing the HS2 tunnel from Piccadilly to Davenport Green, it could truly be transformative!

Is the upgrading and extension of the Warrington BQ low level route now assumed to be "dead"?

 

[snowball]

Is the upgrading and extension of the Warrington BQ low level route now assumed to be "dead"?

That route must be the default assumption, at least for the moment, as there is no other official proposal, but the government says that if the metro mayors prefer some other route then they will look at it.

 

[HSTEd]

I think you have answered your own question!

However, there is the small matter of the £12bn the Government has "committed" to NPR Manchester - Liverpool:

If "local leaders" (presumably TfN and the metro mayors) request that this funding is redirected to upgrading the Chat Moss and CLC lines, together with the cross Manchester corridors, rather than on constructing the HS2 tunnel from Piccadilly to Davenport Green, it could truly be transformative!

Would it?
The lines would still be fundamentally limited by lousy ground conditions, tiny loading gauge and the high station density.

Upgrades cannot overcome the inherent limits of the alignments, no matter how much money you pour away on them.
And any upgrade will result in a decade of massive disruption.

And the only really feasible way to fix the "cross MAnchester corridors" is to build the airport tunnel. Any other solution is going to end up more disruptive and more expensive.

EDIT:

Even counting only stations east of Hunt's Cross, the CLC has 15 stations from there to central Manchester (not counting MUFC Halt).
The route via Chat Moss is not much better.

These railways can never be fast railways without comically expensive and disruptive four tracking, which would cost far more and achieve less than a new line solution.
Given that TPRU has now ballooned to £11bn, what makes you think that this could be done cheaply?

Based on Japanese experience, with two intermediate stops (say at Warrington and Manchester Airport) would achieve end-to-end journey times well under 30 minutes. If you only stopped in one place you'd be looking at 20, none stop it won't be much over 15. And you'd be able to do that several times an hour, all day.

 

[Greybeard33]

Would it?
The lines would still be fundamentally limited by lousy ground conditions, tiny loading gauge and the high station density.

Upgrades cannot overcome the inherent limits of the alignments, no matter how much money you pour away on them.
And any upgrade will result in a decade of massive disruption.

And the only really feasible way to fix the "cross MAnchester corridors" is to build the airport tunnel. Any other solution is going to end up more disruptive and more expensive.

EDIT:

Even counting only stations east of Hunt's Cross, the CLC has 15 stations from there to central Manchester (not counting MUFC Halt).
The route via Chat Moss is not much better.

These railways can never be fast railways without comically expensive and disruptive four tracking, which would cost far more and achieve less than a new line solution.
Given that TPRU has now ballooned to £11bn, what makes you think that this could be done cheaply?

Based on Japanese experience, with two intermediate stops (say at Warrington and Manchester Airport) would achieve end-to-end journey times well under 30 minutes. If you only stopped in one place you'd be looking at 20, none stop it won't be much over 15. And you'd be able to do that several times an hour, all day.

This thread is probably not the right place to speculate on NPR route options between Liverpool and Manchester. But I doubt that the promised £12bn would buy a new high speed line via Manchester Airport. The IRP only offered a 35 minute journey time via an upgraded Fiddler's Ferry line, the same as the current Chat Moss time. The £12bn is only intended to pay for the part of the route covered by the HS2 Hybrid Bill.

My point is that the funding so far allocated to the Transformation Programme is small change in comparison. Just a part of the £12bn would pay for four through platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly, per the binned 2015 TWAO scheme, plus grade separated junctions at Ordsall Lane and Slade Lane.

 

[Bevan Price]

What is the reason for the low speed limit that occurs when you leave the line of the Manchester to Liverpool railway and onto the connecting lines that take you on to the West Coast Main Line?

Approach control/release from fast main lines to curved sections with low speed limits. Trains from Wigan to Manchester start to slow north of the site of the old Golborne South station; trains from Manchester towards Wigan start to slow near the site of Kenyon Junction.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Approach control/release from fast main lines to curved sections with low speed limits. Trains from Wigan to Manchester start to slow north of the site of the old Golborne South station; trains from Manchester towards Wigan start to slow near the site of Kenyon Junction.

20mph limits - approach control fully justified!

 

[Meerkat]

This thread is probably not the right place to speculate on NPR route options between Liverpool and Manchester. But I doubt that the promised £12bn would buy a new high speed line via Manchester Airport. The IRP only offered a 35 minute journey time via an upgraded Fiddler's Ferry line, the same as the current Chat Moss time. The £12bn is only intended to pay for the part of the route covered by the HS2 Hybrid Bill.

My point is that the funding so far allocated to the Transformation Programme is small change in comparison. Just a part of the £12bn would pay for four through platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly, per the binned 2015 TWAO scheme, plus grade separated junctions at Ordsall Lane and Slade Lane.

I got a bit confused, isn’t the £12Bn on top of some existing money (IRP?)?

 

[snowball]

I got a bit confused, isn’t the £12Bn on top of some existing money (IRP?)?

The IRP included phases 2a and 2b of HS2! The £12Bn is instead of that.

 

[Greybeard33]

Regarding NPR Liverpool - Manchester, the IRP "core network" included an upgraded line from Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay Low Level via Fiddler's Ferry and a new line from WBQ to a junction with HS2 Phase 2b at High Legh, west of Manchester Airport. HS2 Phase 2b was assumed to fund the line from High Legh to Piccadilly, including the tunnel under South Manchester and the new Piccadilly HS2 station, which would be shared with NPR.

As @snowball has said, the DfT claims that the £12bn [2023 prices] is to enable this portion of Phase 2b to be built as part of NPR, despite the cancellation of the remainder of 2b between High Legh and Crewe. However, I doubt that £12bn is sufficient to include the cost of the Piccadilly HS2 station, even if the number of platforms were reduced.

 

[Arkeeos]

So is the 12bn just for the HS2-NPR core? If it is, where are they getting the money from to actually build the rest of NPR. They still need money to build the Warrington station and build the track to the Manchester tunnel, *and* tunnel out to diggle.

Network North is a deliberately confusing, incompetently put together document, but I still don’t understand this.

Also, in the case of NPR with hs2, the route should have bypassed Warrington by immediately following the M56 after leaving Liverpool. Track built to 160mph or so.

 

[snowball]

Also, in the case of NPR with hs2, the route should have bypassed Warrington by immediately following the M56 after leaving Liverpool. Track built to 160mph or so.

Where would you have it cross the Mersey and the Ship Canal to get near the M56? Or do you mean the M62?

 

[Arkeeos]

Where would you have it cross the Mersey and the Ship Canal to get near the M56? Or do you mean the M62?

After Widnes, then go south on a viaduct to the M56, which then lines you up perfectly with HS2.

 

[HSTEd]

My point is that the funding so far allocated to the Transformation Programme is small change in comparison. Just a part of the £12bn would pay for four through platforms at Oxford Road and Piccadilly, per the binned 2015 TWAO scheme, plus grade separated junctions at Ordsall Lane and Slade Lane.

Grade Separating Ordsall and Slade Lane junctions are going to be a huge challenge. You are extremely hemmed in in infrastructure terms.
There are road bridges and such in awkward positions and Slade Lane is a very restricted site, I'm not convinced a solution is even available, let alone that it will be cheap.

And I dread to think how much and how long it would take to resurrect the four platform rebuild proposals for Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road, and I'm not sure if the latter even exist.