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Mark Harper will be on Laura Kuenssberg's programme today (27/11/2022 BBC1 09:00)

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ARIC

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I never said 4% + 4% was the same as 8%.

I was saying that the base salary at the end of year 2 was 8.16% higher than present, not 6.08% as had been suggested.

The base salary at the end of the period is what would be used as the basis for any future pay claims, so it is important that we're clear what it would be, rather than counting in cash terms over a specific 2-year period.
Ah ok, I hadn't seen anyone suggest that, I've only seen the suggestion of 4+4% being the equivalent of a 6.08% increase over a two year period, which is correct.

I don't think I've seen anyone in doubt about the figure at the end of that period, but looking at those conditions, it's more an issue of what figure will be used for redundancy packages than future pay deals, so yes, very important!
 
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From the BBC reports, RDG are talking about DCO with retained guards, not full DOO.

Clause 5 specifically states "Driver Only Operation"

If the RDG are "talking about DCO" but specifically requiring "DOO" then they aren't being totally honest. Change that clause 5 to DCO and then talk.
 

dctraindriver

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Experienced or not - some TOCs have a policy that guards must step down onto the platform and ensure the train is fully accommodated before releasing doors.

Even if guards know that it is (let’s say you’re in the middle of a curved, 12 coach platform on a 3 coach train) there is sometimes “theatre” to prove that this is the case.
What does “theatre” mean? Maybe I’m being thick…..
 

Annetts key

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What does “theatre” mean? Maybe I’m being thick…..
I presume, making your action(s) clearly visible in case another railway employee (such as a manager) sees you. By doing this, you ensure that you don’t get called out for not carrying out your duties correctly.
 

bramling

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How is it? Other countries have this, for example the InterCity service from Dublin to Cork is DOO.

DOO only really works well on suburban services where the overall staff presence is relatively high.
This seems to be just another term for DOO; operated or controlled, either word could be used.

Edit: see this https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-com...fety/strategy/driver-controlled-operation-dco



DOO clearly does work on long distance trains as it is already being done, so if anyone says it could never work, that's just wrong.

It does depend on what other staff are present on the train, and what their level of safety training is.

There are certainly examples of incidents where something has happened and the second safety-trained member of staff has proved their worth. Likewise examples of DOO services were the lack of such a member of staff caused things to go badly wrong - Lewisham and Peckham Rye spring to mind for starters, and both of these were in suburbia.

I’m more relaxed about DOO than some, indeed my local rail service has been DOO for as long as I can remember and I can’t say that the lack of a guard has ever really caused a problem that I’ve personally been affected by. I do, however, take the view that if you’re going to have a second person on the train then we might as well get the best value out of them, which is as a fully safety-trained guard, rather than something like an OBS which is really just going through the motions.

Experienced or not - some TOCs have a policy that guards must step down onto the platform and ensure the train is fully accommodated before releasing doors.

Even if guards know that it is (let’s say you’re in the middle of a curved, 12 coach platform on a 3 coach train) there is sometimes “theatre” to prove that this is the case.

To be fair, much of what goes on in the industry is “theatre”, however there are good reasons for this, namely that if staff are totally drilled in following a specific routine, then they’re less likely to get caught out when something unexpected or unusual happens.
 
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muz379

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The deal on TOC's was obviously nowhere near acceptable , I am told it is not that dissimilar to information that was in circulation before the recent reballot .
DOO only really works well on suburban services where the overall staff presence is relatively high.
I'd go one further and say it needs well lit , clutter free platforms , uniform rolling stock of a certain quality and decent maintenance .

No doubt I am sure the protagonists at the DFT & RDG will try and push it through with deficiencies in these areas and the overall experience for passengers will be further diminished .
 

Horizon22

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DOO only really works well on suburban services where the overall staff presence is relatively high.


It does depend on what other staff are present on the train, and what their level of safety training is.

There are certainly examples of incidents where something has happened and the second safety-trained member of staff has proved their worth. Likewise examples of DOO services were the lack of such a member of staff caused things to go badly wrong - Lewisham and Peckham Rye spring to mind for starters, and both of these were in suburbia.

I’m more relaxed about DOO than some, indeed my local rail service has been DOO for as long as I can remember and I can’t say that the lack of a guard has ever really caused a problem that I’ve personally been affected by. I do, however, take the view that if you’re going to have a second person on the train then we might as well get the best value out of them, which is as a fully safety-trained guard, rather than something like an OBS which is really just going through the motions.



To be fair, much of what goes on in the industry is “theatre”, however there are good reasons for this, namely that if staff are totally drilled in following a specific routine, then they’re less likely to get caught out when something unexpected or unusual happens.

Some are, but I do appreciate that station staffing even at DOO TOCs can be cut down to the bone. Somewhere like Southeastern this is evident, whilst the TfL services (Overground & Elizabeth line) are committed to the “from first to last train” principle which if protected, presents a lot fewer issues.

I have no issues with “OBS style” staff on board. More time to do revenue, customer service etc. whilst not doing operational duties. It provides better presence than pure DOO, and driver as sole member. As long as they can deal with emergencies and have a degree of training, then it’s helpful.

I think it’s a good medium but there’s lots of variables and I appreciate there’s uncertainty even in what I said which can cause unease for a group like the RMT. It would need to be backed up by firm commitments. Sadly, this is something this government seems incapable or unwilling to do.
 

357

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My experiences of DOO are that on TfL "first to last" tocs, many are agency and don't have a clue in any incident, proceeding to start giving drivers instructions and generally being a nuisance.

And on "classic" TOCs there just aren't any staff most of the time anyway, but the staff that are around tend to be more useful.
 

bengley

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My experiences of DOO are that on TfL "first to last" tocs, many are agency and don't have a clue in any incident, proceeding to start giving drivers instructions and generally being a nuisance.

And on "classic" TOCs there just aren't any staff most of the time anyway, but the staff that are around tend to be more useful.
I'd agree with this. The agency staff put in just to provide a presence are often no more use than a call point button which goes through to a contracted out call centre.
 

brick60000

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What does “theatre” mean? Maybe I’m being thick…..

I presume, making your action(s) clearly visible in case another railway employee (such as a manager) sees you. By doing this, you ensure that you don’t get called out for not carrying out your duties correctly.

Yeah, this.

To be fair, much of what goes on in the industry is “theatre”, however there are good reasons for this, namely that if staff are totally drilled in following a specific routine, then they’re less likely to get caught out when something unexpected or unusual happens

Fair point - I agree.
 

ARIC

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The deal on TOC's was obviously nowhere near acceptable , I am told it is not that dissimilar to information that was in circulation before the recent reballot .
Indeed, we were told the majority of these conditions in an email from the RMT dated the 6th May 2022...

Their plans include:

· Not filling vacancies and cutting thousands of jobs

· Stripping out jobs from station and retail grades, control rooms and cuts to catering services and jobs

· Closure of all ticket offices

· More attempts to introduce Driver Only Operation

· New grading structures with multi functionality within and between station and train grades

· Multi-company working, where you can be instructed by different employers

· Deskilling, outsourcing and more agency and casual labour

· Cuts to rolling stock maintenance

· Widespread automation and digital technology to replace staff

· Sunday in the working week, with no compensation or enhancement

We've just waited 7 months to be told what we'd be getting in return.
 

gazzaa2

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The Government ultimately has calculated that it can break the Union without substantial political blowback. It's going to attempt to force through the conditions it wants and doesn't particularly care about disruption in the mean time - it probably expects that an overtime ban will start to grind down unity in the Union as it drags on.

This will be a fight to the finish in all likelihood.

I've said from the start the government wants it's own Miner's style victory at all costs
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Not far off the Scottish deal?
It’s full DOO and full ticket office closure, nothing like the Scottish deal!

Clause 5 specifically states "Driver Only Operation"
If the RDG are "talking about DCO" but specifically requiring "DOO" then they aren't being totally honest. Change that clause 5 to DCO and then talk.
You are quoting an RMT document.
We haven't seen the RDG equivalent.
Similarly with #2, "closure of all ticket offices" - we've only got the RMT's word for it.
 

ARIC

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You are quoting an RMT document.
We haven't seen the RDG equivalent.
Similarly with #2, "closure of all ticket offices" - we've only got the RMT's word for it.
Guardian Article on the offer
The RDG said it had proposed that the process of buying tickets at stations would be modernised, with ticket office staff moving out from behind glass screens to other parts of the station.

It also offered: “Where it doesn’t already happen, a new contractual commitment for staff to work rostered Sundays, either as part of their core working week, or as an additional working day remunerated at the existing rate set out in company-specific agreements.”

Of driver-only operation, it said: “It does not mean removing staff from onboard trains. It allows staff onboard to focus on other safety issues and looking after customers onboard with journey advice, selling tickets, etc. The aim would be to see this extended across more areas of the network – where appropriate technology and rolling stock allows – to improve safety of train dispatch and provide greater resilience in times of disruption.”

Ticket office staff freed from the shackles of the glass screen is RDG-speak for ticket office closures.

A DOO option that can "provide greater resilience" and requires "appropriate technology and rolling stock" is...DOO with optional, non-safety-critical onboard staff.

They've been open about this for quite some time now.
 
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uglymonkey

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How can they be safety critical , when many trains run without them ? Thameslink etc... ( no axe to grind , just asking...)
 

Cowley

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Ok. We think everyone’s probably had their say on this now.

Thanks everyone
 
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