Mark Harper will be on Laura Kuenssberg's programme today (27/11/2022 BBC1 09:00)

[O L Leigh]

Plenty of reforms in TOC world, as later posts suggest. All being talked though with the RMT, and have been for months. The rules of the game, though, ar that this isn’t explained to the workforce, which I find very frustrating.

Sundays and ticket offices? Nothing in there for me, unfortunately. What’s on the table for drivers who already work committed Sundays?

I’ll do some checking, but no we’re not hearing anything through expected channels. In fact, we’ve heard nothing at all. At the risk of labouring the point, no-one is even talking at all about pay or conditions. It’s not good enough for the DfT to keep on saying that we need to be talking to our employers when they seem to be the ones who have the handbrake applied to the process. It cannot have escaped anyone’s attention that it’s only those who work for the franchised operators who deal directly with the DfT who are failing to make any progress. Coincidence…?

Some of this isn’t about money, it’s about doing the right thing for passengers, in this case being sure of providing a service every day of the week.

Hang on. That doesn’t fit the narrative.

Are you suggesting that the DfT is prepared to pay for the changes necessary to “deal with Sundays”? If there’s money coming for that when the absolute best they can hope for is for it to be cost neutral (spoiler alert: it won’t be cost neutral), it rather undermines the suggestion that we must pay for our own pay rises through modernisation.

 

[muz379]

But would remove barbeque Sundays which what the Government wants to stop.

Committed sundays doesn't gurantee staff unless there are spare committed sundays to cover annual leave / sickness / people off for other legitimate reasons but that comes at a cost as well .
If the sundays remain outside the working week with commitment to work , or indeed if they are in the working week without sufficient spare coverage it will still rely on some degree of voluntary overtime to cover services like saturdays .

Some of this isn’t about money, it’s about doing the right thing for passengers, in this case being sure of providing a service every day of the week.

I thought the overall aim for the DFT / Treasury was to reduce operating costs . That won't be possible whilst bringing sundays inside the working week because of the increased headcounts required . Unless of course the aim is to cut services other days to pay for it - which doesn't seem to be doing the right thing for passengers .

 

[ExRes]

Committed sundays doesn't gurantee staff unless there are spare committed sundays to cover annual leave / sickness / people off for other legitimate reasons but that comes at a cost as well .
If the sundays remain outside the working week with commitment to work , or indeed if they are in the working week without sufficient spare coverage it will still rely on some degree of voluntary overtime to cover services like saturdays .

I thought the overall aim for the DFT / Treasury was to reduce operating costs . That won't be possible whilst bringing sundays inside the working week because of the increased headcounts required . Unless of course the aim is to cut services other days to pay for it - which doesn't seem to be doing the right thing for passengers .

Precisely, at my last depot we had 50 drivers, the call for drivers to work every other sunday meant we would have 25 on duty when we had around 10 actually 'rostered', what the extra 15 were supposed to do was never mentioned nor was how those 15 were going to have their required rest day between monday and saturday covered

 

[robert thomas]

Plenty of reforms in TOC world, as later posts suggest. All being talked though with the RMT, and have been for months. The rules of the game, though, ar that this isn’t explained to the workforce, which I find very frustrating.





Some of this isn’t about money, it’s about doing the right thing for passengers, in this case being sure of providing a service every day of the week.




Which is your local station? At the stations I use, I see several open ticket office windows not being used whenever I walk through.






agreed. And I’m. Sure the RMT know that, even if they don’t acknowledge it publicly.



Because we are about to see a sustained fall in house prices. Maybe a 20% ‘readjustment’, until interest rates start to fall.




how much do you think?

Neath. There are two windowt only one is generally.open. The person on the gate line helps to reduce the queues by assisting people with the ticket machines. Most of the queues are down to people making advance bookings.

 

[O L Leigh]

Committed sundays doesn't gurantee staff unless there are spare committed sundays to cover annual leave / sickness / people off for other legitimate reasons but that comes at a cost as well .
If the sundays remain outside the working week with commitment to work , or indeed if they are in the working week without sufficient spare coverage it will still rely on some degree of voluntary overtime to cover services like saturdays .

And that is precisely what happens. There is spare coverage built into the Sunday roster and jobs are rostered in exactly the same way as every other day of the week.

Precisely, at my last depot we had 50 drivers, the call for drivers to work every other sunday meant we would have 25 on duty when we had around 10 actually 'rostered', what the extra 15 were supposed to do was never mentioned nor was how those 15 were going to have their required rest day between monday and saturday covered

So you had 10 Sunday turns to be covered and 25 drivers who worked? Have I read that right? Sounds like someone should have gone away and looked at the main roster again.

 

[ExRes]

So you had 10 Sunday turns to be covered and 25 drivers who worked? Have I read that right? Sounds like someone should have gone away and looked at the main roster again.

Not quite, the 25 drivers was the proposal not the reality

 

[O L Leigh]

Not quite, the 25 drivers was the proposal not the reality

Ah, I see. Thanks.

 

[muz379]

And that is precisely what happens. There is spare coverage built into the Sunday roster and jobs are rostered in exactly the same way as every other day of the week.

Going from tocs that don't have any spare coverage built into the sunday roster that is a huge increase in operating cost .

Which is what I think the DFT are trying to reduce . I say I think because their position isn't exactly clear .


I guess with them inside the working week though , just like Saturdays there will be the maximum amount of people down in the book for leave , and if RDW is agreed a minimal amount of people down on the list to work additional .

 

[O L Leigh]

Going from tocs that don't have any spare coverage built into the sunday roster that is a huge increase in operating cost .

That depends on how much of the spare coverage remains unused. At the moment it all gets used up, so the cost would be the same.

Which is what I think the DFT are trying to reduce . I say I think because their position isn't exactly clear .

That's what I thought too, at least until @Bald Rick's post yesterday evening. Now I'm confused.

I guess with them inside the working week though , just like Saturdays there will be the maximum amount of people down in the book for leave , and if RDW is agreed a minimal amount of people down on the list to work additional .

It would become just another ordinary day, subject to the same rostering and leave arrangements. What impact it might have on the level of volunteers to cover the additionals I could not say.

 

[muz379]

That depends on how much of the spare coverage remains unused. At the moment it all gets used up, so the cost would be the same.

Are yours booked or committed ?

Surely if the sundays are currently totally voluntary without spare coverage and they move to committed with spare coverage there is a potential for increase cost if everyone booked to work wants to work and everyone spare wants to work so can all claim their day .

Unless you had a rostering agreement that said spare sundays could be cancelled on posting of roster if not required . But I cant see that being popular with staff .

It would become just another ordinary day, subject to the same rostering and leave arrangements. What impact it might have on the level of volunteers to cover the additionals I could not say.

I guess saturday is also an ordinary day but where I am it is the one that is usually consistently short .

 

[O L Leigh]

Are yours booked or committed ?

We're Sundays outside but committed.

Surely if the sundays are currently totally voluntary without spare coverage and they move to committed with spare coverage there is a potential for increase cost if everyone booked to work wants to work and everyone spare wants to work so can all claim their day .

Indeed, hence my assertion last night that anything that the DfT mandate to be done about Sundays would only be cost neutral at the absolute best. Unused spares on the day do not need to claim their Sunday as they would simply work it in the same way as being spare any other day (come in, drink tea, stare at the walls, go home, etc).

Unless you had a rostering agreement that said spare sundays could be cancelled on posting of roster if not required . But I cant see that being popular with staff .

No, that wouldn't happen. Spare coverage on the day is still needed most days, so there would be no impetus on either side to want to see them cancelled.

I guess saturday is also an ordinary day but where I work at least is the one that is usually consistently short .

We're consistently short every day. But yes, I believe the level of rest day volunteers is lower on a Saturday than any other day.

 

[muz379]

Indeed, hence my assertion last night that anything that the DfT mandate to be done about Sundays would only be cost neutral at the absolute best. Unused spares on the day do not need to claim their Sunday as they would simply work it in the same way as being spare any other day (come in, drink tea, stare at the walls, go home, etc).

No, that wouldn't happen. Spare coverage on the day is still needed most days, so there would be no impetus on either side to want to see them cancelled.

Some places with sundays outside currently dont have any spare sunday coverage - which is where I am suggesting the increase in cost would come from .

Makes sense if you already have it that there is less potential for increasing cost .

 

[jon0844]

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm not the first on here to say something like this: I'd get on board with ticket offices closing for national rail if the whole fares system was made simpler, self-service machines become more reliable and smart/e-tickets are well established and also reliable. TfL I think got away with it because of the ease of Oyster/contactless being widespread and well established, the rest of the rail network isn't there just yet.

I think it's fair to say that ticket offices in the future won't be selling as many tickets, as more people use smartcards, contactless or e-tickets.. but IMO we're many years away from that happening, although some areas will get there quicker than others. London was easy with a zonal system and such high numbers of Oyster/Travelcard users and season tickets. Paper tickets costing more was obviously a clever way to further kill them off.

Elsewhere, people not only have to get paper tickets for many routes, but also want advice for longer distance travel. The big route maps aren't anywhere near as easy to navigate as a London tube map.

And so even when people are more able to buy their own tickets, they'll still want advice.. so many people will speak to gateline or platform staff if the ticket office is closed - but if you cut them also, what then?

What if gateline is in the process of doing an MG11, or platform staff need to shut down a train or dispatch? What sort of customer service does the passenger now get?

What if they want to travel later and plan a route? Do they go down to a platform and hope the agency staff at the gate can help?

Giving people new skills is no bad thing, and of course roles will change, but the job of a ticket office employee will become more about customer service. And you'll still need them for many years IMO. As such, the DfT really should stop wasting time trying to push through crazy changes.

What next? Safety critical platform staff also doing revenue and ticket selling duties? Bam; just one person per station. Job done....!

 

[O L Leigh]

Some places with sundays outside currently dont have any spare sunday coverage - which is where I am suggesting the increase in cost would come from .

Yes of course. However, that additional cost is limited to the unused spare coverage on the day so it's generally only a modest increase.

But I do agree. If the push from the DfT is to save money, attacking Sundays is not the way to do this. The cheapest option is to leave it well alone and allow whatever the TOCs are doing to continue, as anything else would simply increase costs.

 

[muz379]

But I do agree. If the push from the DfT is to save money, attacking Sundays is not the way to do this. The cheapest option is to leave it well alone and allow whatever the TOCs are doing to continue, as anything else would simply increase costs.

I guess the issue is , in my neck of the woods , what currently happens doesn't work very well .

But no matter how many times the minister and other officials inside the DFT say it , "worplace reforms" won't fix that if their aim is to reduce operating costs .

This is one of the reasons for confusion . And also one of the reasons why I just cannot get my head round why the industry itself through the RDG would think that a one size fits all framework agreement will work on the numerous tocs and even more numerous sets of terms and conditions .

 

[O L Leigh]

This is one of the reasons for confusion . And also one of the reasons why I just cannot get my head round why the industry itself through the RDG would think that a one size fits all framework agreement will work on the numerous tocs and even more numerous sets of terms and conditions .

I think it comes back to the age-old problem of those at the top not fully understanding what we do and why we do it.

 

[Tw99]

He was on Radio 4's Any Questions on Friday night too, saying that the DfT has nothing to do with the dispute and that it's up each of the TOCs to negotiate their own pay settlements. Which is, of course, a dreadful lie.

He also had a piece in the Sunday Telegraph yesterday where he said that seeing a resolution of this disupte is his "top priority". In there he didn't exactly say that the DfT had nothing to do with it, but did say ministers would/should not be involved in "detailed negotiations". But that doesn't stop him setting some parameters within which they will allow the ToCs/NR to spend the taxpayer's money.

It's also pretty clear from the piece that he is tying any settlement to changes in conditions around things like Sunday working and staff flexibility.

He asked that the union(s) should call off planned action, but frankly it's hard to see why the RMT would do that since they've already done it once and got nothing in return.

I wonder if the ToCs and NR actually have any clarity on where the goalposts are now, after the last episode where it seems like a settlement was vetoed at the last minute.

 

[Need2]

Why are people talking about the ‘Sunday’s inside’ as one of the reasons for the current disputes?
Unless I’m missing something, primarily in the aslef strikes, I haven’t heard absolutely anything about any ‘modernisation’ or t&c’s changes in the pay talks.

 

[Robertj21a]

He also had a piece in the Sunday Telegraph yesterday where he said that seeing a resolution of this disupte is his "top priority". In there he didn't exactly say that the DfT had nothing to do with it, but did say ministers would/should not be involved in "detailed negotiations". But that doesn't stop him setting some parameters within which they will allow the ToCs/NR to spend the taxpayer's money.

It's also pretty clear from the piece that he is tying any settlement to changes in conditions around things like Sunday working and staff flexibility.

He asked that the union(s) should call off planned action, but frankly it's hard to see why the RMT would do that since they've already done it once and got nothing in return.

I wonder if the ToCs and NR actually have any clarity on where the goalposts are now, after the last episode where it seems like a settlement was vetoed at the last minute.

Any pay settlement has always been tied to achieving revised Terms & Conditions. Rest Day and 7-day working revisions seem to have been high on the list - I assume this is mainly directed at those TOCs who can't currently provide a *guaranteed* service in accordance with the timetable. At *all* times.

 

[387star]

Why are people talking about the ‘Sunday’s inside’ as one of the reasons for the current disputes?
Unless I’m missing something, primarily in the aslef strikes, I haven’t heard absolutely anything about any ‘modernisation’ or t&c’s changes in the pay talks.

Yeah exactly. It's not been detailed to staff at all. Plus ASLEF are in favour of Sundays inside if done properly

 

[Mainsideman]

I think it's fair to say that ticket offices in the future won't be selling as many tickets, as more people use smartcards, contactless or e-tickets.. but IMO we're many years away from that happening, although some areas will get there quicker than others. London was easy with a zonal system and such high numbers of Oyster/Travelcard users and season tickets. Paper tickets costing more was obviously a clever way to further kill them off.

Elsewhere, people not only have to get paper tickets for many routes, but also want advice for longer distance travel. The big route maps aren't anywhere near as easy to navigate as a London tube map.

And so even when people are more able to buy their own tickets, they'll still want advice.. so many people will speak to gateline or platform staff if the ticket office is closed - but if you cut them also, what then?

What if gateline is in the process of doing an MG11, or platform staff need to shut down a train or dispatch? What sort of customer service does the passenger now get?

What if they want to travel later and plan a route? Do they go down to a platform and hope the agency staff at the gate can help?

Giving people new skills is no bad thing, and of course roles will change, but the job of a ticket office employee will become more about customer service. And you'll still need them for many years IMO. As such, the DfT really should stop wasting time trying to push through crazy changes.

What next? Safety critical platform staff also doing revenue and ticket selling duties? Bam; just one person per station. Job done....!

They want to make all station grades merge into one, I see no way of reducing gateline or platform staff numbers so that would not be really an issue.

 

[O L Leigh]

Why are people talking about the ‘Sunday’s inside’ as one of the reasons for the current disputes?

We’re not. We’re discussing it as one of the potential modernisation measures the DfT may see fit to try and push through.

Unless I’m missing something, primarily in the aslef strikes, I haven’t heard absolutely anything about any ‘modernisation’ or t&c’s changes in the pay talks.

No, and neither have we.

It's also pretty clear from the piece that he is tying any settlement to changes in conditions around things like Sunday working and staff flexibility.

Well we’ve already dissected the Sunday issue. I wonder what “staff flexibility” is supposed to mean.

 

[GalaxyDog]

"Staff flexibility" as we have been briefed by RMT, basically means the destruction of almost every grade apart from, quelle surprise, drivers.

Essentially (at least at my TOC) they want to merge stations, dispatch and guards into a "Multi Skilled Operative" role where firstly, we aren't tied to a depot. We can be sent out to any service or depot to fill the gap as needed. Secondly, the safety critical rulings as parrt of guards employment would be ripped up, enabling all sorts of minimum-pay retail store skivvying about such as split shifts, late finishes and early starts - no twelve hour rest periods. Annual leave arrangements would be severely diluted, and pay would be readjusted (lowered). According to one rep I have spoke to, former guards would not even be on the highest MSO pay rank. Rostering and agreements would all be gone.

This is why we consider this to be the Fight of our lives. Mark Harper is just deflecting and lying, albeit in a less confrontational manner than Shapps did.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So Harper says there is no more money but says if unions agree to reform they can "share" the spoils. From what ive read across this forum over many years is the franchises were largely happy to lob money at staff to deal with RDW and Sundays as their accountants had worked out that was the most cost effective way. So this aint going to save money. Of course if the govt wants to buy train service reliability and improved staff conditions thats great but it doesn't have the money.

We all know that DOO is the only real way to make savings but ASLEF won't accept anymore and RMT will go to the ends of the earth to block it and these two unions are locked in now against it hence the fudge up with SWT and Merseyrail. Im sure you could lose a few platform staff in my area but thats really just scratching around for savings.

They always talk about savings but how much debate has been had from DfT with industry about ensuring income is maximised ie check tickets and collect fares. All the NRCs ive looked at put ticket income risk all with DfT so no incentive on operators to maximise revenue. The operators need to be incentivised to maximise like they were when run as franchises. The other thing the DfT might as well do is raise fares on routes with overcrowding so at least they price off excess demand and maximise revenue as clearly there is no goal to deliver modal shift to support net zero.

So we are in a doomsday loop here where cutting train services is the only way left to balance the books but surely the the industries leaders should see where that will end up so they should also be providing a strategy of things the industry can do collectively to drive down costs starting with the levels of safety bureaucracy that still permeate through the industry.

Ultimately i standby my view that had the franchises been retained we wouldn't have got into this mess.

 

[josh-j]

Still don't see why we need to "balance the books" when it comes to funding a public service which actually helps the economy. It doesn't need to make a profit monetarily, it's a service which should be funded for the benefit of everybody.

That the government has us all talking about balancing the books when it comes to such things is such a scam, it really is.

If there are books to balance, it's that the economy is becoming warped around a small number of extremely rich people, who coincidentally are also the people in government.

 

[cactustwirly]

So Harper says there is no more money but says if unions agree to reform they can "share" the spoils. From what ive read across this forum over many years is the franchises were largely happy to lob money at staff to deal with RDW and Sundays as their accountants had worked out that was the most cost effective way. So this aint going to save money. Of course if the govt wants to buy train service reliability and improved staff conditions thats great but it doesn't have the money.

We all know that DOO is the only real way to make savings but ASLEF won't accept anymore and RMT will go to the ends of the earth to block it and these two unions are locked in now against it hence the fudge up with SWT and Merseyrail. Im sure you could lose a few platform staff in my area but thats really just scratching around for savings.

They always talk about savings but how much debate has been had from DfT with industry about ensuring income is maximised ie check tickets and collect fares. All the NRCs ive looked at put ticket income risk all with DfT so no incentive on operators to maximise revenue. The operators need to be incentivised to maximise like they were when run as franchises. The other thing the DfT might as well do is raise fares on routes with overcrowding so at least they price off excess demand and maximise revenue as clearly there is no goal to deliver modal shift to support net zero.

So we are in a doomsday loop here where cutting train services is the only way left to balance the books but surely the the industries leaders should see where that will end up so they should also be providing a strategy of things the industry can do collectively to drive down costs starting with the levels of safety bureaucracy that still permeate through the industry.

Ultimately i standby my view that had the franchises been retained we wouldn't have got into this mess.

The unions should be given an ultimatum, if they want a payrise, they need to agree to savings such as DOO

 

[muz379]

The unions should be given an ultimatum, if they want a payrise, they need to agree to savings such as DOO

Then the unions will continue to organise IA

And being honest belligerence from the employers generally leads to more dissent among the members in support of IA .

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"Staff flexibility" as we have been briefed by RMT, basically means the destruction of almost every grade apart from, quelle surprise, drivers.
Essentially (at least at my TOC) they want to merge stations, dispatch and guards into a "Multi Skilled Operative" role where firstly, we aren't tied to a depot. We can be sent out to any service or depot to fill the gap as needed. Secondly, the safety critical rulings as parrt of guards employment would be ripped up, enabling all sorts of minimum-pay retail store skivvying about such as split shifts, late finishes and early starts - no twelve hour rest periods. Annual leave arrangements would be severely diluted, and pay would be readjusted (lowered). According to one rep I have spoke to, former guards would not even be on the highest MSO pay rank. Rostering and agreements would all be gone.
This is why we consider this to be the Fight of our lives. Mark Harper is just deflecting and lying, albeit in a less confrontational manner than Shapps did.

I'm not sure the RMT's view of the future is as negative as they make out, though it provokes action for their wider campaign.
"All ticket offices to close" is not a realistic possibility, for instance.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Heard some of the suggested reforms which have been suggested by the RDG in their talks with the RMT include things like DOO , Sunday working committment accross the board , catering only operating when it is profitable , booking offices closing and station grades being merged into 1 grade to name a few .

....

There for me is a more troubling aspect to these "negotiations" if you can call them that . The DFT is essentially trying to negotiate a framework agreement and set payrise that will apply to all TOC's . But accross the industry there are multiple sets of T's&C's for the same grades . Its obvious you'll never be able to get unanimous agreement to a framework agreement like this .

This is exactly the problem.

At my TOC Guards work a 35 hour week Monday to Saturday. The basic salary is roughly £30,500. Sundays are Committed Overtime and paid at Time+20%. There are 30 days annual leave per year. Rostering agreements are fairly flexible.

At another TOC Guards may work a 39 hour week Monday to Sunday, so Sundays are inside. The salary may be £38,000 per annum. They may have 35 days holiday but the same levels of rostering flexibility.

What "efficiency savings" do they want from each TOC? If they want Sundays inside then TOC A gives them - do the hours increase from 35 to 39 or stay at 35? If the former, then there would need to be salary increase for the higher number of hours before you even get to a normal pay increase on the basic hourly rate. If the latter then lots more staff are needed. The efficiency savings provided by Toc A can't be provided by Toc B as they already do all those things. So what do Toc B need to give up?

And then who gets what pay increase? Toc A may have given up quite a lot but Toc B nothing. Do they both get the same or not?

Unless you put everyone, everywhere, on the same contract and Ts and Cs - and give differing pay increases to bring everyone to the same level - then the current approach will never work. You can't have a universal approach when you don't have universal contracts and terms.

Are yours booked or committed ?

Surely if the sundays are currently totally voluntary without spare coverage and they move to committed with spare coverage there is a potential for increase cost if everyone booked to work wants to work and everyone spare wants to work so can all claim their day .

Unless you had a rostering agreement that said spare sundays could be cancelled on posting of roster if not required . But I cant see that being popular with staff .

I guess saturday is also an ordinary day but where I am it is the one that is usually consistently short .

We have committed Sundays, but no spares. If someone is on leave, or sick, or it's a vacancy, then you rely on someone doing rest day working to cover the vacant Sunday turn.

 

[muz379]

Unless you put everyone, everywhere, on the same contract and Ts and Cs - and give differing pay increases to bring everyone to the same level - then the current approach will never work. You can't have a universal approach when you don't have universal contracts and terms.

Exactly , and they arent going to put everyone everywhere on the same T's & C's because the union will only even begin to entertain it if you take the highest hourly rate .

And of course complements, links and therefore timetables are built around how much rostering flexibility there is .

And this is just for one grade . Many operators have grades where the same grade at the same company has different terms and conditions dependent on location . Its just not feasible .