Marston Vale line suspension over - FULL services start running 19/02/24

[zwk500]

To be fair the EWR plan does include that (e.g. the 5 station proposal).

Indeed, which is why it's better to wait rather than waste money jumping the gun. If EWR is planning to do the legwork anyway, then electrification can be a follow-on for a much more effective spend.

 

[DarloRich]

If i could have a train before E-W rail is finished I would be most grateful

 

[duncanp]

Is it just me, or is there a reason why the Vivarail class 230 units can't continue in service?

My understanding is that Vivarail have gone into administration, but the staff who used to maintain the units, plus the drivers who had the requisite training and route knowledge, must still be in place.

So can't the government make a short term payment to the administrators to keep the service running until a more long term solution is found?

What is there that is preventing this from happening?

After all, when Railtrack went into administration in 2001, that didn't stop train services from running, and it took more than a year to sort out the mess and bring Network Rail into existence.

 

[87015]

All too much effort, especially if it was down on the TOC suggestion list to DfT to as bustitute from May anyway

 

[43096]

Is it just me, or is there a reason why the Vivarail class 230 units can't continue in service?

Of course there is a reason! They don’t just stop services on a whim,

My understanding is that Vivarail have gone into administration, but the staff who used to maintain the units, plus the drivers who had the requisite training and route knowledge, must still be in place.

Why must the maintenance staff still be in place? They worked for Vivarail.

After all, when Railtrack went into administration in 2001, that didn't stop train services from running, and it took more than a year to sort out the mess and bring Network Rail into existence.

There’s a bit of a difference between the whole national railway system and three trains on an anachronistic branch line.

 

[duncanp]

All too much effort, especially if it was down on the TOC suggestion list to DfT to as bustitute from May anyway

Yes, this seems to be symptomatic of the "can't be bothered" attitude that is prevalent throughout the UK today, and which is evidenced by the closure of Hook, Winchfield and Fleet stations for an extended period of time without any attempt to provide any replacement transport, or even arrange ticket acceptance on those existing bus services that are running.

 

[JamesT]

Is it just me, or is there a reason why the Vivarail class 230 units can't continue in service?

My understanding is that Vivarail have gone into administration, but the staff who used to maintain the units, plus the drivers who had the requisite training and route knowledge, must still be in place.

So can't the government make a short term payment to the administrators to keep the service running until a more long term solution is found?

What is there that is preventing this from happening?

After all, when Railtrack went into administration in 2001, that didn't stop train services from running, and it took more than a year to sort out the mess and bring Network Rail into existence.

I believe on previous threads it has been stated that Vivarail’s administrators have already made most of their workforce redundant. So they are no longer in place to provide support.

Railtrack were closed down under a specific “railway administration order”, which was explicitly designed to keep services running. In a standard administration process the goal is merely to provide as much value for the creditors. If they were losing money operating then shutting down would seem likely to avoid losing more.

 

[The Ham]

All too much effort, especially if it was down on the TOC suggestion list to DfT to as bustitute from May anyway

Much as there's no action on providing buses to serve the local stations around the landslip near Hook.

It's almost as if the Tories don't care about the blue wall either.

 

[duncanp]

I believe on previous threads it has been stated that Vivarail’s administrators have already made most of their workforce redundant. So they are no longer in place to provide support.

Railtrack were closed down under a specific “railway administration order”, which was explicitly designed to keep services running. In a standard administration process the goal is merely to provide as much value for the creditors. If they were losing money operating then shutting down would seem likely to avoid losing more.

But the administrators could have approached the government and asked them whether they were willing to make an interim payment to keep the service running before making the staff redundant.

A standard administration process is indeed supposed to provide value for creditors, but that does sometimes include keeping the business running as a going concern whilst looking for a buyer.

After all, who is going to buy a fleet of refurbished London Underground trains. It is a bit of a niche market.

 

[DarloRich]

So can't the government make a short term payment to the administrators to keep the service running

The key point is the government wont make any such payment.

My understanding is that Vivarail have gone into administration, but the staff who used to maintain the units,

The maintenance staff were, i believe, employed by Vivarail and thus have been made redundant by the administrators. It might be possible to get some of them back but skilled mechanical fitters are always in demand and so will be (hopefully) in new jobs

You need 4 or 5 units to cover the route 2 covering the all day duties one unit to cover the school trip and either 1 or 2 as in depot under repair.

The service runs on 3 units and in days past ran on 2 with a failure covered by a spare 153 hot footing it form Tysley!

But the administrators could have approached the government and asked them whether they were willing to make an interim payment to keep the service running before making the staff redundant.

I am sure they did. I bet the response wasn't positive OR wasn't positive in a short enough time frame.

 

[zwk500]

But the administrators could have approached the government and asked them whether they were willing to make an interim payment to keep the service running before making the staff redundant.

They may well have done, but there's no requirement or compulsion for the government to do so. If the government bailed out every business that went into administration there'd be even worse cutbacks in other spending.

A standard administration process is indeed supposed to provide value for creditors, but that does sometimes include keeping the business running as a going concern whilst looking for a buyer.

This is only possible if there is money in the coffers. The indication was that Vivarail didn't have anything left, and credit is hard to get when you're in administration.

After all, who is going to buy a fleet of refurbished London Underground trains. It is a bit of a niche market.

Well indeed. But anybody looking may decide it's cheaper to wait until they go to auction than buy it as a going concern.

Fundamentally Vivarail was a private business, and private businesses live or die by how much product and service they can sell. Vivarail just didn't sell enough of either.

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder to stick with what's actually happening in this thread, thanks

There is a thread for speculation at the link below:

Marston Vale line suspension - possible short term solutions?

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/marston-vale-line-suspension-local-mp-gets-involved.242143/ With the old west Midland class 153 being stored, is this the best short term fix? The toilet issue can solved by what Transport for Wales has done by fitting a disabled...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would appear there are plans afoot to reintroduce the service using Class 150s towards the later end of the year or early next, with buses until then. Not sure where these would be from, but a logical assumption is TfW as I believe they are the only TOC planning to release them on that sort of timescale:

No trains likely on the Marston Vale Line till the autumn at the earliest!

Cllr David Hopkins, who’s ward at MK City Council includes stations at Woburn Sands and Bow Brickhill, and who represents MK City Council on the Marston Vale Community Rail Partnership, has expressed his disappointment at the news from London North Western (LNW – who operate the rail franchise...

www.mkcommunityhub.com

No trains likely on the Marston Vale Line till the autumn at the earliest!​

Cllr David Hopkins, who’s ward at MK City Council includes stations at Woburn Sands and Bow Brickhill, and who represents MK City Council on the Marston Vale Community Rail Partnership, has expressed his disappointment at the news from London North Western (LNW – who operate the rail franchise on the line) does not foresee trains operating again on the line until the autumn of 2023 … at the earliest.

LNW no longer anticipates seeing the return of the Class 230 engines that had been specifically (and at some cost) adapted from former underground trains to operate on this service. Instead, it proposes to reintroduce the class 150 engines, withdrawn from the line in 2019.



Apart from the inconvenience this has caused and will continue to cause to regular rail commuters (which includes school children attending schools in Bedford and others accessing the Kimberley Sixth Form College at Stewartby), Cllr Hopkins has also raised concerns over the limitations the replacement bus service offers – in particular the considerably extended journey length as well as there being little or no provision for those travelling with cycles nor those with disabilities.



However, Cllr Hopkins has applauded LNW for its openness and honesty in admitting its failures in the operation of this service and accepts its determination to overcome these obstacles to a return to a fully timetabled train service as quickly as is practicable given the need for replacement trains, driver and crew training and new maintenance arrangements to be put in place.



Cllr Hopkins comments, ‘LNW is offering stakeholders a regular briefing session and has produced a detailed Frequently Asked Questions document to be place on social media, town and parish council web sites and the like and we are grateful for this. However, questions remain as to just LNW got into this position in the first place and just what this means for the longer-term viability of the long campaigned for East West Rail service connecting Oxford and Cambridge (via the Marston Vale line)’.

 

[100andthirty]

I find it incredible that an organisation like West Midlands Trains that has its own engineering capability can't find anyone to get to grips with the three class 230 trains. I might just understand if it were Avanti which contracts out all its maintenance. Having read a review of the replacement bus arrangments they can't be cheap!

 

[Liverpool 507]

I don't think they are trying with these units. TfW and SWR are managing to run/introduce these trains to their service. Poor show from WMR/LNWR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think they are trying with these units. TfW and SWR are managing to run/introduce these trains to their service. Poor show from WMR/LNWR.

Is there some other issue? For example are the engines leased?

Even so they have never really been reliable, and they lose time because of slow door operation. They were a nice quirk, but I think 150s will be better for the line overall. The TfW ones have low density 2+2 seating so will be pleasant.

 

[DarloRich]

Anyone know how to change your season ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone know how to change your season ticket?

Go into the station and ask for a changeover form.

 

[zwk500]

The Marston Vale does seem to be the confluence of all that's bad with the British rail industry - penny-pinching investments that store up problems for later, old and unreliable equipment forming a self-defeating cycle and attempts to use the line as a test bed for strategies that ultimately have their supports removed with no real back-up plan.
Add to this a service not timed well for a number of well-used connections, a zero-delay policy that involves shutting doors in faces and a legacy of rural stations that don't serve the villages particularly well so customers end up driving because at least their car will be where they left it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Add to this a service not timed well for a number of well-used connections, a zero-delay policy that involves shutting doors in faces and a legacy of rural stations that don't serve the villages particularly well so customers end up driving because at least their car will be where they left it.

It's actually perfectly timed for WCML connections, or would be if it ran. The whole cycle is very Swiss - Marston Vale arrives, a full cycle of fast and slow departures in both directions, then Marston Vale departs.

Unfortunately the May timetable retimes some of the morning peak trains (if they run) which breaks that, I guess it is probably due to feedback from e.g. the schools about the timings not suiting, however it does still work for most of the day. To some extent the school times do need to drive it as they provide the vast majority of the custom.

 

[zwk500]

It's actually perfectly timed for WCML connections, or would be if it ran. The whole cycle is very Swiss - Marston Vale arrives, a full cycle of fast and slow departures in both directions, then Marston Vale departs.

Unfortunately the May timetable retimes some of the morning peak trains (if they run) which breaks that, I guess it is probably due to feedback from e.g. the schools about the timings not suiting. To some extent the school times do need to drive it as they provide the vast majority of the custom.

I certainly used to hear from colleagues pre-covid that the train from MKC would regularly arrive 1 or 2 minutes late and miss the connection into the branch train.

 

[43096]

I don't think they are trying with these units. TfW and SWR are managing to run/introduce these trains to their service. Poor show from WMR/LNWR.

The difference is that SWR are maintaining in-house and TfW have contracted to Stadler. LNR have gone with Vivarail as maintainers, which is a big difference. LNR can’t just take over they will need to have all the documentation that is needed.

Personally I find it rather amusing that after all the flack thrown at Vivarail by Marston Vale users, that Vivarail’s exit has screwed the service.

 

[andythebrave]

It would appear there are plans afoot to reintroduce the service using Class 150s towards the later end of the year or early next, with buses until then. Not sure where these would be from, but a logical assumption is TfW as I believe they are the only TOC planning to release them on that sort of timescale:

No trains likely on the Marston Vale Line till the autumn at the earliest!

Cllr David Hopkins, who’s ward at MK City Council includes stations at Woburn Sands and Bow Brickhill, and who represents MK City Council on the Marston Vale Community Rail Partnership, has expressed his disappointment at the news from London North Western (LNW – who operate the rail franchise...

www.mkcommunityhub.com

Just great, super.

Ironic btw.

 

[DanNCL]

Service to resume in September with TFW 150s is what I've heard this morning. Plan dependent on TFW releasing the units in time (so dependent on enough 231s and 756s entering service) and WMT completing crew refreshers on the 150s.

 

[dgl]

The difference is that SWR are maintaining in-house.

Or course SWR also have the advantage that they have only really been refurbished and retractioned using the same power supply they had always used, no trying to attach batteries or diesel engines to them.

 

[jamieh27]

This is the information that LNR Posted on their website regarding the replacement for the 230s.

Marston Vale Line: Hourly timetable has now resumed

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNR are saying that the 230s were requiring three engine swaps a week. That's appalling, and far worse than I even thought.

I do wonder if, even if Vivarail hadn't collapsed, they might have got 150s in anyway once available. If they were that bad (and that's ignoring the slow doors issue) they were clearly unfit for purpose.

Marston Vale Line: Hourly timetable has now resumed

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

What consideration have you given to reinstating the Class 230s?
Reinstating the Class 230s is neither feasible or desirable, given their significant reliability issues. On average, three engines per week required changing due to reliability issues, necessitating a substantial workshop operation. Furthermore, we do not have access to the technical information required to become the Entity in Charge of Maintenance, which would be necessary to support the operation of the fleet.
The anticipated future costs of keeping the fleet running are significant.

 

[jamieh27]

Also told it be TfW that will hand the 150/2 over to LNR.

 

[Trainbike46]

LNR are saying that the 230s were requiring three engine swaps a week. That's appalling, and far worse than I even thought.

I do wonder if, even if Vivarail hadn't collapsed, they might have got 150s in anyway once available. If they were that bad (and that's ignoring the slow doors issue) they were clearly unfit for purpose.

Marston Vale Line: Hourly timetable has now resumed

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk

Does that mean they were burning through 3 engines a week, for a fleet of 3 trains?

That is terrifyingly bad

 

[Geeves]

As above the two 150s on loan from Northern to TfW and some others from Northern by the sounds of it